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Her saying how she doesn't understand why people can't work together after voting leave makes no sense whatsoever, it's inherently about seperating the UK from the rest of Europe and not working together, especially with the brexit that you are getting from the Tories
Yeah, it's all terribly optimistic Brits who never thought bad stuff can come from their decisions. Or at least, bad stuff for them.
It is what it is, still more worried about what Brexit means for the EU than what it means for the privileged people who voted for it hoping to get more out of the EU, all the people who voted for it trying to get out of a bad situation, they have my sympathy.
It is what it is, still more worried about what Brexit means for the EU than what it means for the privileged people who voted for it hoping to get more out of the EU, all the people who voted for it trying to get out of a bad situation, they have my sympathy.
Five years ago I was playing a gig in a tiny French town, in a covers band that's 3/4 English, 1/4 French, trying to make sense of it all and work out how the locals would react.
My parents had come over the day before, and I found out on Brexit Eve that they'd voted to leave.
The locals were great, they didn't care, and my parents felt very, very awkward as literally everybody else there was saying was how stupid you'd have to be to vote for it.
Good times.
Still, my wife and in-laws are getting their carte de séjours (residency) today (not me, I'm stuck in UK!).
My family members that voted for it regret it now. I think if they'd carried on thinking it was the right decision my head would have exploded. It's of some, albeit little, comfort.
My parents had come over the day before, and I found out on Brexit Eve that they'd voted to leave.
The locals were great, they didn't care, and my parents felt very, very awkward as literally everybody else there was saying was how stupid you'd have to be to vote for it.
Good times.
Still, my wife and in-laws are getting their carte de séjours (residency) today (not me, I'm stuck in UK!).
My family members that voted for it regret it now. I think if they'd carried on thinking it was the right decision my head would have exploded. It's of some, albeit little, comfort.
I don't think it helps when the opposition feel unable to bring up the negatives in any meaningful way either.
Yup, it's all talk for the cameras hoping it'll convince the Tories to help them out, they'll continue to vote for them regardless. The Tories aren't going to help out though, they know Brexit is a mess and the only way they can try to mitigate at least some of the damage is by making trade deals that will kill some domestic industries, these people were warned it would happen but they were too busy thinking it wouldn't be their industry getting destroyed so they'd be fine.
How can they? Brexit has effectively torn the party apart. Poking at the wound now helps nobody.
Even the Lib Dems, who maintained a consistent anti-Brexit stance, aren't currently pushing the issue.
EU prepares to cut amount of British TV and film shown post-Brexit
Exclusive: number of UK productions seen as ‘disproportionate’ and threat to Europe’s cultural diversity
www.theguardian.com
Like, that's a logical progression to expect. Of course the EU is going to move against UK content counting as EU content, because, it isn't. Not anymore. The whole point of the law is to protect EU culture / artists, why should the EU treat UK content any different from US content in regards to "this isn't putting money on our table"?
People were warned about this...
EE to reintroduce Europe roaming charges in January
The mobile operator EE is to charge new UK customers to use their phones in Europe.
www.bbc.co.uk
People were warned about this...
EE to reintroduce Europe roaming charges in January
The mobile operator EE is to charge new UK customers to use their phones in Europe.www.bbc.co.uk
One does and others follow I imagine. Project fear 😂
In other news..
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...f-food-shortages-due-to-lack-of-lorry-drivers
Leave campaigners 'surprised' by decay in relations with EU, says David Frost
www.theguardian.com
Leave campaigners ‘surprised’ by decay in relations with EU, says David Frost
Brexit minister says dispute over border checks in Northern Ireland main barrier to better relationship
www.theguardian.com
Also learning from experience should be in like, regular retail work. Not for negotiators of massive trade agreements.
But then, that's the play - to play it off as being like 'any other job', so their failures are excused by such
But then, that's the play - to play it off as being like 'any other job', so their failures are excused by such
Yeah who cares about those little oopsies. They're just people's lives and livelihoods on the line. Whoopsie-doodle!
I mean, not surprising but it might end up hit by EU courts if UK changes anything like with USA.
Protects EU business interests, so it's understandable and the EU does seem to warn the UK not to fuck with this lest they reverse the decision.
Yeah, doesn't the UK have to keep things as they were when we were a member, seems okay.
And it automatically gets looked at again in 4 years.
Fuck em.
That said, I still don't see how the hell we're going to fix NI unless the UK government is willing to commit to alignment.
They need to dump Frost eventually, he's actually an idiot.
Give it back to Ireland? Scotland is going soon so may as well get a start on destroying the Union.
There's an argument Ireland (people of) wouldn't want it. NI would be a massive albatross.
There's a gulf between wanting it back for a united Ireland, and what it would mean in terms of the economy etc.
Nah, the principle of the thing overrides everything else. The loss of the six counties is a constant sore spot for Ireland, to the point where it would be political suicide for any official to campaign against it. We'd never vote against it.
economic considerations should not stay in the way of reuniting people
Sure, but the people of Ireland will have to vote on the matter, and it's almost certainly going to be at the forefront of their minds.
I can't find it right now, but the last survey I saw on the matter (done in Ireland) put it closer than you'd imagine.
He's worse. Mega-twat might be more descriptive.
David Frost appears to make light of Elton John’s concerns over EU musician visas
Chief Brexit negotiator quips that singer had hits before UK joined European Union
www.theguardian.com
And there absolutely shouldn't be a popular vote on something monumental as the reunification of a divided nation/people.
That is very near and dear to my heart as a former citizen of Eastern Germany.
Is Nothern Ireland doing so poorly economically? Another historical example of reunification was West and East Germany, and there was a huge economic gulf between them and yet it was a hugely popular idea, to finally make the country whole again.
Btw, I vaguely remember hearing once that NI is actually a wealthy region, at least within the UK?
Gods no. Northern Ireland is a black hole of money. It's insanely subsidised by the rest of the UK to keep it going.
There is a very real argument that Ireland doesn't want NI back because it would be harder to bridge the gap than West and East Germany. Obviously that wouldn't stop it happening but it would absolutely cripple Ireland's economy.
My experience of the Irish people is that are pretty pragmatic when it comes to economic matters.
The upside to reunification is that the EU would probably be more actively invested in making it work, which should help on the financial side. Though it's not just a matter of throwing money at the problem because there's systematic issues that have gradually spiralled over the years from underfunding that it's a long road to improve.
NI can't be as run-down and mismanaged as 1980's communist Eastern Germany.
And NI would be applicable for a bunch of heavy EU subsidies.
Every Nation has its regions that are a drain to its finances, that shouldn't be an argument for exclusion.
Oh, ok, was wrong about that then. I think I heard that from a history teacher here in Austria when discussing how Ireland become independent, that there were strong economic interests ( as well as local political ones) to keep NI still in the UK. Maybe I completely misremember that though, was very long ago.
Yep, that's what happens when you're forced to shoulder a bailout for the banks for the best part of a decade after a decade of economic excess.
On the topic of reunification, I'm Irish and I absolutely would be voting against reunification for both economic and stability reasons. The Republic simply can't afford the cost of running the North (even before the pandemic this was the case), but even leaving that aside if there were ever any concrete actions taken to start the reunification process the North would just explode in violence again. The Good Friday/Belfast agreement was an extremely impressive breakthrough of diplomacy, but of course, the UK then went and fucked that up massively without giving any consideration to how it would be impacted by Brexit, and now here we are. Any further significant deviations from the current status quo risks igniting a powderkeg (it's entirely possible that will happen anyway with the current state of things as is).
Even if we ignore that though I'm not actually sure the will is there for reunification, which presumably would take a majority vote win in both the North and South at a minimum. Are there the votes for that? I genuinely don't know, I like to think that the south would be pragmatic and realise it isn't viable economically, but it's such an emotional matter I fear that would be ignored by many (and then just flat out not understood by many more). A quick Google shows that a recent survey in Jan in the Republic had support at about 66%, which I must say is surprisingly high (or perhaps not surprisingly, because it's likely just a gut reaction to "should Ireland be reunited" with no actual thinking on the practicalities).
Edit - Just adding the link to where that list figure came from, but also specifically to call out this piece - "That said, the survey also indicated a majority of people - on both sides of the border - did not want to pay higher taxes to make a united Ireland a reality". So there it is. Irish taxes are already extremely high, and Northern Ireland taxes are quite a bit lower (particularly on the thresholds I believe) and would need to be brought in line, and reunification would cost huge amounts of money that would have to come from somewhere (which we all know means, more taxes). So maybe pragmatism would win out if a vote was put forward.
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It was certainly the case back in the early 1920s - Belfast in particular was an industrial and economic powerhouse at the time - think of the Harland and Wolff shipyards.
My grandmother's family emigrated to Glasgow from Belfast in the early 1920s in part down to the horrific sectarian violence aimed at catholics during the War of Independence and Civil War period, but the job situation apparently also played a role - lots of good jobs/employers would only take on protestants.
It's in the Good Friday Agreement. Reunification can only happen with the consent (expressed via referendum) on both sides of the border.
We...are good at making it look like that. Our government are experts at propping up the middle class and neglecting everyone else, which is why emigration has been a continuing problem since the late 2000s.
It'll absolutely be voted on from an emotional perspective. Reunification is a matter of national pride, even if we can scarcely afford to look after ourselves.
It's like West/East Germany where one side has to deal with what is arguably a parasite until it gets brought up to speed with the rest of the country. Difference is that we're not fabulously rich like West Germany, although I could see EU funds being poured into it.
On your query of whether there is a will. There is a will, there will always be a will and in very recent years it's gotten considerably stronger up north. A United Ireland is without doubt a very emotional thing to alot of Irish people but given Brexit and the impacts it will have on Northern Ireland it's now become a realistic and likely alternative to what will essentially be isolated arm of the UK subject to different rules and more headaches.
From the economic side, alot of those arguments are based on the fact that the north runs a hefty enough deficit, which it does. However alot of that deficit is directly linked to it being in the union. You strip out the union associated costs such as defence costs (about a billion), the UKs national debt (which the NI "pay" about 2bn for), the existing pension book (about 3bn) all of a sudden the north isnt actually that bad.
As it stands now the North is disregarded by mainland UK. It gets fuck all investment, fuck all attention and fuck all anything and that was further proven by the Tories using it to force through brexit related shit and complete fucking it over.
Incorporating it into the republic would give it opportunity to actually take part in a wider government that would generally give a shit about it from promoting tourism, investing in projects, and improving infrastructure.
Ireland has managed to fund 500k or whatever people on the PUP at a cost of 7ish billion so far with no impact on income taxes. The EU I'm sure would gladly provide assistance in the manner of reintegration because it solves them and the UK a massive fucking headache that is the north.
NI wouldn't need to be "subsidised" if it received adequate investment from the government. But instead they give it all to London
The key difference though is that the PUP are temporary costs. Those costs will end eventually, and it remains to be seen how we'll need to make up for that. The topic of how to pay for it/resolve the gap in finances it caused will inevitably come up when we're on the other side of the pandemic). Reunification with Northern Ireland would be an ongoing addition to the overall state expenditure forever. I would agree that the EU would prob look to support a reunification financially, but it isn't going to do that indefinitely, so ultimately we need to think about how this would work for the longer term.
Interesting details on the specifics of the budget though, those are the kind of economic details that really need to be front and centre with the discussion. For me I think it was pretty telling in that article I linked where people said that they weren't in support of reunification for higher taxes on both sides of the border. If we just pretend for the sake of argument that somehow it doesn't lead to increased taxes for those in the South, it ABSOLUTELY will lead to significant increases in tax and cost of living for those in the north (not to mention a shift to the Euro, increases in the minimum wage for businesses etc). So is that something that will garner the support needed in the north with a very clear and unambiguous increase in cost to people's own back pockets?
Whatever your feelings on this matter, unification of Ireland will not happen without popular approval via referendum in both Northern Ireland and Ireland. That's a requirement of the Good Friday Agreement - it's not in any form avoidable.
I'm not sure what any alternative would even look like, to be honest. You couldn't just dump Northern Ireland into Ireland without any democratic exercise and say "there you go guys, problem solved". The repercussions of doing that would last for actual centuries.
As a final note, "reunification" is not a particularly accurate way to conceptualise the outcome you're talking about. There's never been a sovereign united Ireland in anything remotely resembling the context of a modern nation and terms that you might think are perfectly fine are, in the context of Northern Ireland, often politically charged and loaded with all kinds of associations that you almost certainly don't intend to invoke. What you're talking about is better described simply as "unification".
There were - a hundred years ago the northern part of Ireland, particularly Belfast, contained much of the industrial base of the island. Keeping Northern Ireland in the UK meant the UK kept a disproportionately large amount of the economic wealth of the island at the time within the UK.
Things have changed significantly since then though.
This is probably no longer true (and definitely no longer true to the same extent as it was, say, 25 years ago). Finding numbers is difficult and time-consuming - especially up to date ones - but a while ago I spent the time necessary to dig up public spending numbers for both Northern Ireland and Ireland, and a decade of cuts to public spending in Northern Ireland have lowered per capita spending there to levels that are close to being in line with per capita public spending in Ireland.
There would still be a substantial economic challenge in the event of unification, since although public spending levels are about equal, the per capita tax take in Ireland would be a lot higher than in Northern Ireland. That economic challenge, though, is now at a level where it might plausibly be overcome. The political and societal challenges are, of course, quite a different matter.
This might end up being true, but I think that would be a long-term problem rather than an immediate one. The first form of a unified Ireland would, I expect, be federal, with Northern Ireland contained within its own bubble entity that kept things the same there (to whatever extent possible) including state employment. Definitely the first act of a unified Irish government can't be to throw thousands of state workers on the dole.
The same logic can be applied to northern ireland's budget. Alot of its factors that are outside the direct control of NI are driven by england. As far as I'm aware nobody has done a direct study on NIs finances if they rejoined the union beyond some of the strip outs i mentioned above.
And while yes inevitably they'll put a strain on Ireland's resources in the short term, most government focus on long term benefits. One of the key benefits we could bring is a reduction in their corporation tax. While yes that increases their "deficit" it would also increase foreign investment in the area. the ROI has brought more direct foreign employment in 1 year than the north did in 5.
There's also no guarantee it would lead to increases in income taxes. At a pretty high level the UK taxes arent that far off the Irish taxes (basing this on online calculators provided for NI and ROI). The impact starts hitting the "high" earners at around 50k+ the impact on lower earners is actually beneficial to the north.
Similarly the minimum wage is fairly close favouring NI in many cases.
As someone said above its not like it'll happen the day immediately after the vote. There'll be a transition period that would work through all these kinda kinks to make sure that the impact is gradual rather than a sudden shock
In relation to the survey, if you ask anyone if they wanna pay more taxes they tend to say no