My point is that Infinite Wealth took way longer to make than the regular releases because they couldn't do the usual asset flip.
[Bloomberg] Sales of FFXVI, VII Rebirth, and Foamstars failed to meet expectations
- Thread starter Clippy
- Start date
FF shouldn't reuse maps/worlds or characters in new mainline games.
But it should reuse gameplay (with minor updates to give each title a fresh feel), concepts, ideas; things should feel similar even if it's a new world with new people that the player is experiencing.
If FF17-20 all feel as similar to one another as FF7-10 feel, then SE is on the right track. If they're all wildly different games with no common identity beyond the FF title then we'll just be discussing the same thing over and over again.
The gameplay has been modernized enough by 16/7 Rebirth; it's more about just selling a similar experience over and over again that's been lost. It may not even be possible if they can't get more than 1 mainline game out per generation; that's just nowhere near the kind of release situation that FF needs imo.
Quality has not been the problem for FF, but consistency has been. I'm a big fan of just abandoning the graphics fidelity situation now that Switch 2 is on the way and just focusing on making games that come out quicker with Switch 2 releases at the same time as PC/PS/Xbox.
But it should reuse gameplay (with minor updates to give each title a fresh feel), concepts, ideas; things should feel similar even if it's a new world with new people that the player is experiencing.
If FF17-20 all feel as similar to one another as FF7-10 feel, then SE is on the right track. If they're all wildly different games with no common identity beyond the FF title then we'll just be discussing the same thing over and over again.
The gameplay has been modernized enough by 16/7 Rebirth; it's more about just selling a similar experience over and over again that's been lost. It may not even be possible if they can't get more than 1 mainline game out per generation; that's just nowhere near the kind of release situation that FF needs imo.
Quality has not been the problem for FF, but consistency has been. I'm a big fan of just abandoning the graphics fidelity situation now that Switch 2 is on the way and just focusing on making games that come out quicker with Switch 2 releases at the same time as PC/PS/Xbox.
tbf, we did get a judgement game (which is the same universe), a remaster, and a smaller Kiryu game in between 7 and 8
yea but their point was the main releases timeline, and the system that they setup allowing them to do spinoffs like that
Though I think cheaper spinoffs is something that final fantasy has explored, and should continue to explore. The XIII sequels were both fun experiments, and X-2 despite a garbage story and an awful requirement for the ending, had an incredible battle system and job system. All 3 of those games very worth playing, but massively lower budget to produce due to asset reuse.
That game just isn't as good as FF, the story just doesn't seem as grand as FF and very weak characters
It seems a lot of long term fans felt that way, they just wanted a prettier version of what they played in 97. At the same time, I feel a new player isn't going to get some of the subtext if they've never played the original. For good or ill, this remake trilogy isn't simply playing the hits (and honestly i prefer that). There are too many other variables at play for Rebirth's performance to simply lay it at the feet of nostaglia pandering to declare "THATS IT" while simply relying on vibes, feels and anecdotal evidence. Its not like XVI outsold it by a huge amount to suggest they want new only. We need to consider its still PS5 only, it jumped console generations for the sequel, there's a lot of potential new fans and lapsed fans that are on different hardware. We still don't have hard numbers, and no customer feedback, just guesses from a enthusiast forum that isn't always in touch with what the average player wants or enjoys.
The funny thing about people trying to say FFXVI is too different is that it has a pretty clear direction from FFXV.
An ARPG but with good combat this time, the genre shift makes a lot of sense.
Hell, most people that played FFXV played it when it was a single character game, so even that part of FFXVI wasn't a big change.
I love Splatoon but it might be Sui generis. Not sure there's room for another shooter like it
I… very much disagree. There is zero freedom of player expression in stellar blade's combat system, no canceling of any sort, no combo chaining, etc. The game badly wants the player to believe it's more of a fast action game, but it lacks everything that makes fast action games good. It's a souls-like exploration game, not a bad thing, but FF16 is a far better action game.
I don't know what the answer is overall for SE, but this makes me sad.
I was a masc presenting gay kid in private Catholic schools growing up but stayed very quiet and introverted for fear of revealing my secret to my very conservative friends and family. It wasn't until the start of my private Catholic high school when I joined the swim team and bonded with a cute sophomore boy over Final Fantasy VIII that I made my first real friend I felt comfortable around. And then we started kissing each other.
Needless to say, the series holds a very special place in my heart. I loved IX and X and XI. XII and XIII weren't quite what I wanted but i still enjoyed them. I was so excited for XV and when it finally released and I got to play it, the series basically died for me. XV was such a massive disappointment that I completely disconnected from even following the series. When XVI came out, I had completely forgotten it was even a thing until a friend asked me if I had bought it. The VII remakes have been... fine. But I had a hard time even getting excited for them. More fearful than interested, I guess.
I think XV being such a massive success when it was such an incomplete, empty, and janky game probably had a hand in people losing faith in the series. Massive amounts of people experienced XV and I'm betting a lot were like me. I couldn't even finish the game. It was a miserable experience for me.
I was a masc presenting gay kid in private Catholic schools growing up but stayed very quiet and introverted for fear of revealing my secret to my very conservative friends and family. It wasn't until the start of my private Catholic high school when I joined the swim team and bonded with a cute sophomore boy over Final Fantasy VIII that I made my first real friend I felt comfortable around. And then we started kissing each other.
Needless to say, the series holds a very special place in my heart. I loved IX and X and XI. XII and XIII weren't quite what I wanted but i still enjoyed them. I was so excited for XV and when it finally released and I got to play it, the series basically died for me. XV was such a massive disappointment that I completely disconnected from even following the series. When XVI came out, I had completely forgotten it was even a thing until a friend asked me if I had bought it. The VII remakes have been... fine. But I had a hard time even getting excited for them. More fearful than interested, I guess.
I think XV being such a massive success when it was such an incomplete, empty, and janky game probably had a hand in people losing faith in the series. Massive amounts of people experienced XV and I'm betting a lot were like me. I couldn't even finish the game. It was a miserable experience for me.
I don't know how the devs handle it, but the studio did do several other releases and a remake inbetween (different teams?). And I don't think FF necessary needs very short dev time.
To be clear, I was not envisioning them following that model 1:1, more like tske inspiration in certain ways. I do feel the last couple of mainline FFs use way too much different engines and assets, as well as entire gameplay systems. I am convinced it is easier to be cost effective when building and improving on what you have (kinda like remake to rebirth, but then for new original titles).
I agree with you, yeah.
I still can't believe that Square, upon seeing the massive success that FF15 was, not only decided against giving that team the next mainline FF game, but decided to give them a new IP that ditched everything that people liked about FF15. Like what the actual fuck. Considering how expensive and long game dev is these days, you'd think that they would have seized this immediate opportunity.
I am praying that they don't make this mistake again. When Toriyama and Hamaguchi ship FF7 Part 3, they need to be given the keys to FF17. Load up Unreal 5 on every dev's workstation and get to fucking work on iterating upon everything that you've learned over the last decade of FF7 development, and ship a game as soon as humanly possible. On PS5, PC and Switch 2.
Truly ludicrous stuff, I have no idea what they were thinking. To me it's so obvious that it puts a ceiling on how much the series can grow, because it is too serious for the crowd looking for a game for all ages, but not serious enough for the crowd looking for a mature game.
Clive is an adult man traveling the world with his girlfriend for 5 years and they never kiss, and when they do it's the worst sex scene in the history of media. You can't be all grimdark and have a teenager will-they-won't-they at the same time, it has to be one or the other.
People here, especially fans of the games are so cagey about sales, often feels like talking about sales may "jinx" them. Well no, 99,99% it's water under the bridge, games either have it or don't, talking sales down or up on Restera has zero impact.
Anyway, about possible future PC sales? I have no idea about how SE is doing on Playstation but on PC is one of the worst big publishers out there, completely out of touch with PC audience, so it would be a miracle for FFXVI and FVII Rebirth to have big sales there.
Anyway, about possible future PC sales? I have no idea about how SE is doing on Playstation but on PC is one of the worst big publishers out there, completely out of touch with PC audience, so it would be a miracle for FFXVI and FVII Rebirth to have big sales there.
I agree. Switch 2 will be better than a PS4 in some ways marginal and in others very significant and starting with that base will put it in line with laptop integrated graphics. Huge amount of users covering pretty much all the major premium gaming platforms. Scale up from that and it has the widest range of possible users. Controversial here even further is that Switch 2 as a lead will also keep the base within range of mobile chipsets so possibility of Apple and Android device ports in the future
Its a mixed bag. Even as someone who was receptive to the changes in Remake, I can't just ignore that a lot of OG fans weren't hot on it and kind of just fucked off, understandably.
It was also their COVID project, not sure how hard that impacted their development considering they released quite a few games there
Sorry, but I think at best they should be given the keys to FF 18, I hope 17 comes out shortly after part 3, otherwise it will be a decade between 16 and 17. Part of keeping an identity is maintaining the same teams just shipping one project after the next. Maybe CBU1 and CBU3 could be for FF what Infinity Ward and Treyarch have been for Call of Duty, alternating releases. And yes, I think they should build on the Remake series battle system which to me is clearly the best option, but I think CBU1 could change their next game to use tactical mode and ATB very easily and it shouldn't be a major impediment.
Someone needs to be working on 17 well before VIIR Part 3 is done. Ideally, like, now, at this moment.
The series can't go eight years without another mainline entry again.
I think it is just important to understand the scope and design differences between these games. Like there is a reason why it's faster for say.. Owlcat Games to make a meaty isometric RPG like Pathfinder with dozens of expansions and then release a Warhammer CRPG last year. The engine of those games lend themselves well to the genre, they can be repurposed to other games in the same genre, there isn't hours and hours of voice acting in those games, high end production values.
Yakuza games are still pretty budget in a lot of areas too.
I do agree that Square Enix should probably try not to reinvent the where with every game. They've got a good thing with the systems for Remake and Rebirth. They could make a new great Final Fantasy with those assets.
Of course becsuse all of those games have repurposed the assets from Yakuza 6 with slight inprovements between each game. It wasn't until Lost Judgment when the combst was actually good, I don't think Final Fantasy can afford to do that because the scope is on another level, and Final Fantasy games aren't so samey that they can use the same simple branker combat and setting for every game.
If Square set targets of growth it's possible. If their targets are just retaining/regaining the boost of EW/ShB it's more likely.
True, they may already have dialed in expectations and not be aiming for growth. Oddly I think if WoW hadn't had it's revival arc after the brief migration to XIV growth may have actually been very possible as a fresh jumping in point for new players almost lined up perfectly, alas DT seems to have come a little too late for that.
Exactly. People didn't understand that the problem isn't that Final Fantasy isn't growing. It was worse. It was shrinking. Starting with Remake.
There was no concern troll or hate. It was just stating the obvious trend with 2, then 3 releases, which isn't normal.
I thought I read somewhere that pre-order sales for Dawntrail already passed up Endwalker. Plus we're getting the big graphics update. Lot of people are excited for this one.
Who knew this was the news to unite FFXVI and Remake/Rebirth fans?
FF fans unite! All of you late 20s/30/40/50 something year olds.
FF fans unite! All of you late 20s/30/40/50 something year olds.
Oh nice, yeah that's good news then. Tbh I may just be expecting low figures since it feels like it's been in quite a slump in the late EW updates. Content itself has been good but with the changes to relics the game has felt pretty inactive at times whereas the gap between ShB to EW or SB to EW didn't feel as steep a drop off. I do hope it does well as I'm hoping for it keep running as long as it can afford to.
Stupid question, but will SE look into why Rebirth is underperforming? Like would they realize they made a mistake in splitting the remake into 3 parts over 10 years and adding KH elements to the story?
Yeah, I think tag teaming the 7 remake team and the XVI team would be the way to go. If there's a plan to spin up a new team for XVII, that should really be reassigned to XVIII or XIX while the other teams release something sooner. Ideal would probably be something like:
2027: CBU1 releases Remake part 3
2028: CBU3 releases a new game on an expanded XVI engine, whether you call the XVII or FF: The Spinoff or whatever, they should be trying to deliver a second game on that tech while the PS5 is still a going concern
2030/1: Game from new team starting work right now
2031/2: New game from CBU1 built on the framework of Rebirth/part 3
Omit the new game from a new team if that's beyond their current capacity
Fighting for a year only for both sides to lose. It's Shakespearean.
I mean they set targets and didn't hit them as expected. I'm not really sure your point. They want to set ambitious but accurate targets. FP&A people don't just pick the biggest number they can think of, even though companies get this stuff wrong all the time.
Released on a smaller install base, is a sequel, and Square probably had stupidly unrealistic sales goals because of how inflated the sales of Remake were since it released right when shutdown happened in 2020.
I still think it'll have long legs as more PS5's get bought, especially with the PS5 Pro coming and it'll win lots of GotY awards
It's not about "unrealistic growth".
It's about factual decrease in sales.
When you go from FFXV and its 5 million sales at launch, down to 3.5 million for VII Remake, down to 3 million for XVI down to even lower Rebirth... That's not ridiculous expected sales. That's their biggest IP shrinking to lower numbers each entry and closer to niche AA titles.
My guess would be blame will be 80% console exclusivity and 20% the realization that multipart inherently limits the sales of the later parts. I doubt anyone will think twice about the "KH elements". If anything, the take away will be that there aren't enough FF7 diehards left to sustain them, which will lead to an opposite conclusion from what you're wanting if you're hoping for stuff more faithful to the original. They're not going to come away thinking that they should've been more faithful to FF7, just that they should've cared less about it to begin with
The shrinking between FF15 and REMAKE is negligible since 7R has no xbox version. In fact the first month sales of REMAKE is better than FF15 in USA.
As long as REBIRTH and FF16, it may be their products are not appealing. REBIRTH is part 2 of a trilogy which often sells least in a trilogy. FF16 is almost like an ACT game which is not expected by fans.
REBIRTH is more interesting because of its very good word of mouth, and in JAPAN it already shows better legs than FF16. Even in worst case REBIRTH won't sell less than Nier of SQUARE ENIX which sold 8 million.
Yeah I gotta agree with people saying CBU1 or at least the Remake team not getting FF17. The gap between entries was one of things they mentioned they hope to change in their rebooting plan. I think it's insane to expect the team that's saying their next release is 2027 (the tail end of this three year plan they're talking about) to them be assigned the following entry to a game that released in 2023. That's already a four year gap and we wouldn't even be in the pre production stage that's ridiculous.
If it is CS3/CBU3 it'll probably be 2028 assuming they started developing their next title at the end of 2023 so that would be a 5 year gap still pretty long but not as bad as the other option lol. Also I don't think Yoshida or Koji not being on the title is a big deal, every CBU has multiple producers, directors, artists, localization leads, etc. and people who can fill the executive positions of said roles. XVI had like multiple executive producers from just CBU3 alone in the credits, I don't think it's impossible for someone to fulfill Yoshida's role on XVI in a new project for them they even started hiring for New Graduates pretty recently (it's where we first officially heard of the Creative Studio thing from with the interview with Yoshida having a new title). Getting a new generation of leads is like the least of the worries SE has right now I would guess. Filling the slate of the remainder 2024 to 2026 is the main one its why their stocks are tumbling right now.
If it is CS3/CBU3 it'll probably be 2028 assuming they started developing their next title at the end of 2023 so that would be a 5 year gap still pretty long but not as bad as the other option lol. Also I don't think Yoshida or Koji not being on the title is a big deal, every CBU has multiple producers, directors, artists, localization leads, etc. and people who can fill the executive positions of said roles. XVI had like multiple executive producers from just CBU3 alone in the credits, I don't think it's impossible for someone to fulfill Yoshida's role on XVI in a new project for them they even started hiring for New Graduates pretty recently (it's where we first officially heard of the Creative Studio thing from with the interview with Yoshida having a new title). Getting a new generation of leads is like the least of the worries SE has right now I would guess. Filling the slate of the remainder 2024 to 2026 is the main one its why their stocks are tumbling right now.
I just briefly googled around for what you said here and I cannot find anything that supports this.
Final Fantasy from FF4 to FF10 had absolutely killer character design. And a few of the games had amazing world design & plots (specifically 7 & 10).
The production values were one thing, but I don't think the gaming world would have particularly cared about FF7 years later if it wasn't for their love of Cloud, Sephiroth, Tifa, Aeris, etc.
I'd also say that some of the games have had some great battle system design (10, 10-2, 12, 13), but unfortunately, most of the time, instead of iterating on the design, fixing the issues and making it even better, they just scrap the ideas and do something new.