Even in an industry as vast and all-encompassing as video games, there are still shitheads that want everything tailor-made to their absurd ideal.
One obvious path toward reform would be to improve diversity among those who create games for deep-pocketed developers. Earlier this month, Activision released a report showing that only about one-quarter of its employees were female, a share it said was similar to its industry peers. A prior study found that women are even more underrepresented in executive roles in the industry. It's hard to imagine that some of the worst game-design decisions wouldn't have been avoided if there were more female voices participating in the process. Reeling from its own scandal, Activision says it will do better and hire significantly more women within five years.
these are... completely different, unrelated thoughts, right? like i'm not crazy, right?The treatment of women in video games, both behind the scenes and as characters within them, is nothing short of scandalous. Hopefully the latest round of outrages, as well as the example of Sony's Horizon title, will spur publishers to change their culture. It's well past time that they did.
I hate that you have to clarify this, cause it feels like everybody who actually intends to argue in good faith already understands what you mean. So many trolls out there who just want to stir up some shit under the guise of "just asking questions."Let me be crystal clear. The "ugly" word quote is from the toxic social media replies/messages I'm getting. I AM NOT saying or implying that for Aloy.
Post Christmas week is usually slow news wise so it makes sense.
Yes. Anyone who actually read the entire piece would know I'm a huge fan of Horizon Zero Dawn/Forbidden West/Aloy.I hate that you have to clarify this, cause it feels like everybody who actually intends to argue in good faith already understands what you mean. So many trolls out there who just want to stir up some shit under the guise of "just asking questions."
While it's not surprising, her arguments are extremly weak and manipulative, IMO we should focus on that first rather than her aligment, because that's what she's using to rally normies and alt-righties hidden behind a neutral posture.
"Almost every female gamer I know" wants the give to her speech the importance of a majority, the token of an imaginary "female crowd". It's not a rationnal argument but an emotional one, and the interesting thing here would be the "almost"... that won't be be expressed to favor the majority she claims representing.
Than she paints reporaches that no one did about playing a pretty char (the paper is about offering variety, not uniformisation) trying to teach us what slut-shaming is, than invents a fake moral trial where she's victimising herself.
After that it's the old argument of the individuality used to denial a systemic pressure. The right use this all time for everything, class struggle, racism and here sexism. Either to promote themselves to be better than that, or to say that victims can fight this alone.
Yea it's correlation, not causation.these are... completely different, unrelated thoughts, right? like i'm not crazy, right?
On the other hand, Ygritte is super sexualized in GoT. She cracks horny jokes, practically pushes herself onto Jon, has a nude sex scene, andAlso weird because I remember GG saying that took a lot of inspiration from Ygritte on GOTY when designing Aloy. Who unsurprisingly also don't wear make up or run around in loincloths, everyone seemed to be able to understand that in the context of the show though.
This is wrong, actually. The initial talent pool of entry level hires is quite close to 50-50, perhaps even somewhat in favor of women. Then, systematic discrimination at every level makes it more difficult for women to be promoted to higher level positions. And those who do rise in the ranks often get promoted on the basis of being good at playing the men's game.More so because diversity problem originates from a completely different roots - whether people like it or not, objective reality is that tech-centric industries are in a near constant shortage of talent, and total global talent pool that exists is skewed like 10:1 (or worse) in favor of men. So all 'focusing on diversity in hiring' does is reallocate the resources to different companies, it doesn't do anything to immediately move the needle overall.
It may be long, but it is a good read so thank you!
Remember when bits and pieces of the game leaked and everyone thought they knew everything and started judging it super harshly? I distinctly remember people thinking Abby was the vaguely described "trans character" because they couldn't fathom a cis woman having muscles.Aloy had it easy compared to
I'll never forget the salt
Oh, and the misogyny and sexism too
That's just the fake "progressives" trying to derail the conversation parading as "woke" only to try to impose conservative and dated opinion as "concerns".They want to play Bayonetta without the sexual character design?? Isn't that like, a huge part of her personality and move set? Why not just play any other game, or just admit that the game isn't for you if you're too embarrassed to play in front of others, instead of demanding conformity to your individual level of comfort?
That's just the fake "progressives" trying to derail the conversation parading as "woke" only to try to impose conservative and dated opinion as "concerns".
Really old and tired. "Oh, I can't try to censor this obscene game, were a woman teases angels in a snarky way? Let's see how the libs responds when I complain that it offends me as sexualized object!"
If I misunderstood this sentence, ignore me. But as I understood it you dismiss that some people could have serious issues with Bayonetta for example and you argue those people just want to reclaim their sexuality? Like are you serious?It's not that. It's just people who have issues with their bodies looking to reclaim their sexuality by denying it in others.
Thank you for your beautiful wall of text, appreciate your passion and completely agree on every point. Sexy ≠ sexualised.I fucking hate nothing more than people - oftentimes men, but also other women at times - bringing up that there's women who love playing as female characters in insanely sexualized outfits & don't give a fuck like.. okay? Women with internalized misogyny exist? Women who slut-shame other women exist? As do women who don't give a single shit about misogyny & sexualization (which sadly often is the byproduct of them trying to please men & look like "one of the good ones", but that's a whole different topic) & don't think well of intersectional feminism? Same with women who like cosplaying as sexualized characters & feel empowered by them? But that doesn't mean that the women who do have a problem with misogyny and sexualization & support intersectional feminism are in the wrong or stupid & that people shouldn't listen to them.
Very often has "some people of this specific minority group don't care if other people who don't belong to the same minority group use a slur the minority group reclaimed so I should be able to say it without any repercussion" energy lmao. There's always people who simply do not give a fuck for whatever reason. Be it they're right-winged, anti-SJW fuckers or genuinely simply do not care. Doesn't mean the people who do care are just making up issues that don't exist & should simply shut up. We're not a fucking monolith so of course you never have everyone in a group agreeing on something. Personally, I've always thought that it's more important to make sure the least amount of people are hurt or feel discriminated so instead of immediately dismissing concerns you should always listen first & consider other people's feelings.
To get back to the original topic, sexy or hot != sexualized. As a fucking lesbian I'm obviously attracted to women unlike straight women so of course there's female chracters that I personally consider attractive & hot who are my type, but they're very rarely sexualized & more often than not just in normal ass clothes without any camera leering on their tits or anything like that. Fucking Jesse Fayden from Control, Dina, Ellie & Abby from TLoU2, Frey from Forspoken, Juliette from Deathloop and Chloe & Nadine from The Lost Legacy are some of the female characters that I think are ridiculously attractive & none of them were ever sexualized in any way.
Do I like some female characters who happen to be in dogshit "sexy" outfits myself? Sure. Kainé in Nier & Zero in Drakengard 3 are the best examples. Love them despite their outfits. FFVIIR Tifa as well. But I also have a very similar body type - though I actually have fucking muscles in my arms & thighs unlike her lmfao - to her so I never saw it as super unrealistic generally & more just sexualized. That said, it very much is in context of the game, when you think that she's a fucking fighter. She's got no god damn muscles & is utterly sexualized at times. Just because I generally mostly like her design does not mean that I & others can't call it out or say it's unfitting. Just like Lara Croft was. Just like Jill was. Just like Kainé & Zero are. You can very much like female characters & think their designs are empowering to a degree while also acknowledging that they're sexualized, but a lot of people think we're not capable of that lmao. Please, I know way too many lesbians who go absolutely crazy for some female characters in shit designs while also being the first to talk about how much they suck when it comes to sexualization.
So yeah, bringing up some women (who funnily enough more often than not are ones who think feminism is evil & that we should be gentle with those poor, poor men who feel nothing but hate for us & don't even know how to love women & not just their bodies) being like "lol I'm not like other women I actually don't care about sexualized outfits" isn't the gotcha that some people think it is. Yeah, obviously some don't give a shit. Doesn't mean it's not actually a fucking problem tho.
Anyway, enjoyed the article & agree that it's still very much a problem in the industry. Also kinda losing my mind over how so hung-up some people on Twitter etc. seem to be on the "ugly" thing that wasn't even in the fucking article when people usually have no problem pointing out when a woman or man isn't seen as super conventionally attractive. Like, I personally think Aloy is pretty, but lbr she probably wouldn't run next to Adriana Lima, Miranda Kerr, Alessandra Ambrosio or whoever else is still working with the transphobic Victoria's Secret & is seen as flawless by some parts of our society & it's no crime to point that out lmao. A lot of people do consider characters like Aloy, Abby or Ellie ugly no matter how dogshit their reasons are. Hell, men thought Jill in RE3make was ugly, too manly & "looked infertile" for God's sake.
Personally, I couldn't care for the looks of the vast majority of male characters I've played at - you still don't see me talk about how I think they're ugly bastards or how I couldn't get into the game because of them or some shit. People need to fucking grow up, get over themselves & stop talking like they're models themselves too good to play as characters they wouldn't wanna fuck lmfao.
Also kinda never liked people bringing up Bayo as this perfect sexy female character that owns her sexuality when she's a fictional character designed by the hand of a woman, but after the fetishes of a man - Hideki Kamiya. I love Bayo & even mostly love her design, but she's utterly sexualized by the game, creators & fans so while she can definitely feel empowering for some of us who love owning our sexualities & enjoy dressing sexy I wouldn't say that's all there is to her. If you'd get rid of all the sexualizing male gaze & the fact that she's a product of a man's fetishes I would absolutely agree that she's a great example of a sexy female character in both the way she dresses & acts, but with that baggage I just can't agree.
And I do think too many peole still think that sexualization isn't inherently bad when it very much is. Owning your sexuality, being sexy or dressing sexily or creating a sexy female character - all of which have vastly different definitions depending on which people you ask anyway - is not. Sexualizing a woman dressing sexily or a female character is. Hell, they don't even have to be showing any skin for that. I get sexualized a fuckton when I'm out simply for having a typical hourglass figure even when I'm not showing any skin. Billie Eilish got sexualized like crazy after a paparazzi pic that had her in a tank top with some cleavage showing while she was underage. We do not have any fucking control over people sexualizing us. We can choose for ourselves if we want to dress in a sexy way or not, but even then we're not safe from sexualization. I'm positive there's other women who could explain this better, but I just don't like people - who oftentimes aren't even women - talking about how sexualization of women isn't actually bad & that we should more aim for diverse sexualized characters as if that'd make it any better. Again, you can have sexy or hot characters, nobody said that's not possible. But we do not fucking need sexualized female characters with skimpy outfits that don't fit in the scenario they're in, jiggle physics, ass & tits shots, near moaning when they get hit & other shit like that that's accompanying said sexualized characters.
Sexually objectifying us will never be okay when it leads to eating disorders, depression & suicidal tendencies, body dysmorphia & other mental problems in young girls & women that absolutely ruin the relationships a lot of us have with our bodies. As long as people like me aren't being seen as anything more than a sex object for merely having big tits & an ass we're not at a point where we can talk about how sexualization of women in media made & dominated by men isn't hurtful actually. They do not have any fucking agency, they're not strippers or burlesque dancers or sex workers who know they'll be sexualized while doing their jobs no matter what & can use it to their advantage.
Sorry for the wall of text :(
God, I don't know much about Amara as I never played B3, but her design alone is fantastic. Love strong women who actually have muscles.
Other writers have brought up the native American cultural appropriation and other issues such as native American writer Dia Lacina (sadly she had to take down her original medium article) and it's been reported by other sites. So I think it's a different topic but it's also nice to have that balance so the article isn't just lionising Aloy/Guerrilla Games.Hmm, I remember the rightful call-outs of appropiation inherent to Aloy and her "tribe". I wish the comment had engaged with the progressive aspects of her while also questioned or considered the public issues with design and how Aloy is still the games industry /Guerrilla /Sony throwing breadcrumbs of diversity and cultural and racial awareness.
How do you not realize the important issue coming out of that article right now is to discuss if Aloy is hot or not?Why do people latch on to the easy pickings (ie Aloy) instead of actually discussing the article?
Probably too uncomfortable
Can you quantify what 'exactly' you're referencing here? Is it the talent-pool distribution, is it the people actually getting hired, is it for a specific industry, and where is it geographically?This is wrong, actually. The initial talent pool of entry level hires is quite close to 50-50, perhaps even somewhat in favor of women.
I run into this stuff all the time too with my wife. It's not like she's judging me specifically (Though maybe she would if I was constantly playing games with those sorts of portrayals; I'm thankful a lot of anime style games don't appeal to me), but it's unquestionably cringey to see characters portrayed the way they are in so many games.Re: family comment, I meant in front of my wife. She rolls her eyes whenever I play Bayonetta etc.
The initial talent pool of STEM hires are STEM graduates. According to the World Bank's data, that pool would be approximately 40% female.Can you quantify what 'exactly' you're referencing here? Is it the talent-pool distribution, is it the people actually getting hired, is it for a specific industry, and where is it geographically?
Over the last few decades, most data I've seen on engineering/math etc. students was in ratios like 50:1 or worse (seems to be consistent across different countries/continents). The next step - the CV/applications distribution for tech/engineering roles is easily more than 10:1 skewed as well. This also persists across variety of tech-industries.
I don't have much to add, but I wanted to say that was a great post.I fucking hate nothing more than people - oftentimes men, but also other women at times - bringing up that there's women who love playing as female characters in insanely sexualized outfits & don't give a fuck like.. okay? Women with internalized misogyny exist? Women who slut-shame other women exist? As do women who don't give a single shit about misogyny & sexualization (which sadly often is the byproduct of them trying to please men & look like "one of the good ones", but that's a whole different topic) & don't think well of intersectional feminism? Same with women who like cosplaying as sexualized characters & feel empowered by them? But that doesn't mean that the women who do have a problem with misogyny and sexualization & support intersectional feminism are in the wrong or stupid & that people shouldn't listen to them.
Very often has "some people of this specific minority group don't care if other people who don't belong to the same minority group use a slur the minority group reclaimed so I should be able to say it without any repercussion" energy lmao. There's always people who simply do not give a fuck for whatever reason. Be it they're right-winged, anti-SJW fuckers or genuinely simply do not care. Doesn't mean the people who do care are just making up issues that don't exist & should simply shut up. We're not a fucking monolith so of course you never have everyone in a group agreeing on something. Personally, I've always thought that it's more important to make sure the least amount of people are hurt or feel discriminated so instead of immediately dismissing concerns you should always listen first & consider other people's feelings.
To get back to the original topic, sexy or hot != sexualized. As a fucking lesbian I'm obviously attracted to women unlike straight women so of course there's female chracters that I personally consider attractive & hot who are my type, but they're very rarely sexualized & more often than not just in normal ass clothes without any camera leering on their tits or anything like that. Fucking Jesse Fayden from Control, Dina, Ellie & Abby from TLoU2, Frey from Forspoken, Juliette from Deathloop and Chloe & Nadine from The Lost Legacy are some of the female characters that I think are ridiculously attractive & none of them were ever sexualized in any way.
Do I like some female characters who happen to be in dogshit "sexy" outfits myself? Sure. Kainé in Nier & Zero in Drakengard 3 are the best examples. Love them despite their outfits. FFVIIR Tifa as well. But I also have a very similar body type - though I actually have fucking muscles in my arms & thighs unlike her lmfao - to her so I never saw it as super unrealistic generally & more just sexualized. That said, it very much is in context of the game, when you think that she's a fucking fighter. She's got no god damn muscles & is utterly sexualized at times. Just because I generally mostly like her design does not mean that I & others can't call it out or say it's unfitting. Just like Lara Croft was. Just like Jill was. Just like Kainé & Zero are. You can very much like female characters & think their designs are empowering to a degree while also acknowledging that they're sexualized, but a lot of people think we're not capable of that lmao. Please, I know way too many lesbians who go absolutely crazy for some female characters in shit designs while also being the first to talk about how much they suck when it comes to sexualization.
So yeah, bringing up some women (who funnily enough more often than not are ones who think feminism is evil & that we should be gentle with those poor, poor men who feel nothing but hate for us & don't even know how to love women & not just their bodies) being like "lol I'm not like other women I actually don't care about sexualized outfits" isn't the gotcha that some people think it is. Yeah, obviously some don't give a shit. Doesn't mean it's not actually a fucking problem tho.
Anyway, enjoyed the article & agree that it's still very much a problem in the industry. Also kinda losing my mind over how so hung-up some people on Twitter etc. seem to be on the "ugly" thing that wasn't even in the fucking article when people usually have no problem pointing out when a woman or man isn't seen as super conventionally attractive. Like, I personally think Aloy is pretty, but lbr she probably wouldn't run next to Adriana Lima, Miranda Kerr, Alessandra Ambrosio or whoever else is still working with the transphobic Victoria's Secret & is seen as flawless by some parts of our society & it's no crime to point that out lmao. A lot of people do consider characters like Aloy, Abby or Ellie ugly no matter how dogshit their reasons are. Hell, men thought Jill in RE3make was ugly, too manly & "looked infertile" for God's sake.
Personally, I couldn't care for the looks of the vast majority of male characters I've played at - you still don't see me talk about how I think they're ugly bastards or how I couldn't get into the game because of them or some shit. People need to fucking grow up, get over themselves & stop talking like they're models themselves too good to play as characters they wouldn't wanna fuck lmfao.
Also kinda never liked people bringing up Bayo as this perfect sexy female character that owns her sexuality when she's a fictional character designed by the hand of a woman, but after the fetishes of a man - Hideki Kamiya. I love Bayo & even mostly love her design, but she's utterly sexualized by the game, creators & fans so while she can definitely feel empowering for some of us who love owning our sexualities & enjoy dressing sexy I wouldn't say that's all there is to her. If you'd get rid of all the sexualizing male gaze & the fact that she's a product of a man's fetishes I would absolutely agree that she's a great example of a sexy female character in both the way she dresses & acts, but with that baggage I just can't agree.
And I do think too many peole still think that sexualization isn't inherently bad when it very much is. Owning your sexuality, being sexy or dressing sexily or creating a sexy female character - all of which have vastly different definitions depending on which people you ask anyway - is not. Sexualizing a woman dressing sexily or a female character is. Hell, they don't even have to be showing any skin for that. I get sexualized a fuckton when I'm out simply for having a typical hourglass figure even when I'm not showing any skin. Billie Eilish got sexualized like crazy after a paparazzi pic that had her in a tank top with some cleavage showing while she was underage. We do not have any fucking control over people sexualizing us. We can choose for ourselves if we want to dress in a sexy way or not, but even then we're not safe from sexualization. I'm positive there's other women who could explain this better, but I just don't like people - who oftentimes aren't even women - talking about how sexualization of women isn't actually bad & that we should more aim for diverse sexualized characters as if that'd make it any better. Again, you can have sexy or hot characters, nobody said that's not possible. But we do not fucking need sexualized female characters with skimpy outfits that don't fit in the scenario they're in, jiggle physics, ass & tits shots, near moaning when they get hit & other shit like that that's accompanying said sexualized characters.
Sexually objectifying us will never be okay when it leads to eating disorders, depression & suicidal tendencies, body dysmorphia & other mental problems in young girls & women that absolutely ruin the relationships a lot of us have with our bodies. As long as people like me aren't being seen as anything more than a sex object for merely having big tits & an ass we're not at a point where we can talk about how sexualization of women in media made & dominated by men isn't hurtful actually. They do not have any fucking agency, they're not strippers or burlesque dancers or sex workers who know they'll be sexualized while doing their jobs no matter what & can use it to their advantage.
Sorry for the wall of text :(
God, I don't know much about Amara as I never played B3, but her design alone is fantastic. Love strong women who actually have muscles.
Ok that's not as lopsided, but it's still pretty slanted (less than 4 in 10) - the next interesting data point would be individual STEM fields, but that's probably much harder to parse. It's also a worldwide average - even when you hire in the most international employers, your pool will be geographically influenced/limited - for smaller outfits the region just shrinks further.The initial talent pool of STEM hires are STEM graduates. According to the World Bank's data, that pool would be approximately 40% female.
Yes, but it is heavily skewed towards females in Science and towards males in TEM as I understand it.The initial talent pool of STEM hires are STEM graduates. According to the World Bank's data, that pool would be approximately 40% female.
Any data to support that? It might explain what we're seeing in candidate shortages - but I wouldn't want to just go off assumptions (I've had visibility into a 'couple' universities that support it, but that's closer to anecdotal than statistically relevant evidence).Yes, but it is heavily skewed towards females in Science and towards males in TEM as I understand it.
Take computer science as an example, because that is the STEM field most relevant for making video games. In India, women are 45% of CS graduates (the overall population is only 48% female). The US's manages 18% female CS graduates. I don't think even places like Saudi Arabia has 10:1 or higher gender ratio at the degree level. As for how it breaks down in STEM overall, I do not have world data, but we can take a look at a study for China as an example. The below are % students that are female. Keep in mind China overall is somewhere between 46-48% female at this age range.Yes, but it is heavily skewed towards females in Science and towards males in TEM as I understand it.
Good point. Some above, thank you Raftina.Any data to support that? It might explain what we're seeing in candidate shortages - but I wouldn't want to just go off assumptions (I've had visibility into a 'couple' universities that support it, but that's closer to anecdotal than statistically relevant evidence).
The table with 53% in the Asia-Pacific section is actually specific to Australia. In India, the numbers are much closer, with women accounting for 50-54% of science and CS degrees and 30% of tech and engineering degrees. Note that math is not separately counted, though the study in China suggests math is actually closer to natural science than engineering in terms of gender breakdown.This has some of the education degree breakdowns with women in the majority in sciences (53%) but notable minority in engineering and tech (18%) in Asia as an example, and each other region, with US seeing 60% in science and 25% in tech and engineering. So a similar gap, but higher values in general.
Women in Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics (STEM) (Quick Take)
Data and sources for women in STEM industries in Australia, Canada, Europe, India, Japan, and the United States.www.catalyst.org
In short, the STEM gender gap starts early, in primary education, gets reinforced through high school then makes itself ingrained by college and ultimately into workforce. You can't just easily "hire more women" if those women are not getting the degrees and skills you need them to get in the numbers needed. It's really a systemic problem from the very early ages and it can only be solved in a comprehensive way.