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L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,114
Ugh, well I'm obviously failing to understand what point I'm missing. Why is it only now that there are calls to boycott Blizzard when their presence in China is so huge that we could have previously concluded that they would behave in such a manner if a situation like this arose? Aren't there similar concerns with other companies who have a vested interest in business in China, e.g., console manufacturing? If Blizzard's interest is in continuing what they've built as normal, what would have been the correct action to take in this situation to both dissuade future players and employees from using Blizzard's official platform for political messaging that could potentially damage them, and to maintain confidence from all professional partners and regions involved?

Okay, maybe this can help. Do you remember the five W's? Who, what, where, when, and why. When you're encountering a problem you can describe it with those different questions. We'll concern ourselves with just two of them here.

To start with. what did Blizzard do? What is the actual activity that earned them criticism?

What Blizzard did was that they punished a player for speaking out against the interests of the ruling Communist Party of China. The effect of that action, the concern, is that by choosing to punish this they're legitimizing China's oppression and delegitimizing resistance to it.

These are the facts of what happened. The what of the situation cannot be changed by answering some other distinct question.

Why did they do it? Most will tell you that it's a business reason. Not a whole lot are going to claim that they just really hate people from Hong Kong. The Communist Part of China controls the media in China, which includes foreign media entering the country, and as such it is necessary to go through the party to access the Chinese market.

You've been arguing that Blizzard was doing this because they're an entertainment company. That's not only something no one was arguing against, but it's a question of why. That doesn't change what they did regardless.

You might frame the argument as Blizzard being concerned about their image, and and so they aren't supporting the political position of China. That doesn't make sense. That "support" describes holding an end goal, whereas other people saying "support" means acting in a given interest in practice. Take a moment to appreciate the difference between the two meanings.

Blizzard doesn't need to have supporting the interests of China as their end goal in order to support the interests of China. It can be, and most would agree that it is, simply a step necessary to achieve some other end goal.

You're also resenting this as Blizzard trying to provide a sterile environment and that the action can happen without the intent for it to support China. This is closer to a what argument, which is why I've constantly tried to explain to you why it can't work and constrasted with methods that actually would.

Wanting to make a pleasant, safe environment is not necessarily behaviour to criticize. But that isn't done by being apolitical, and again, you can't be to start with. Removing Nazi rhetoric - not acknowledgement of their atrocities, but their stances and arguments - would lend to a pleasant and safe environment. But you do that because the Nazi agenda is inherently violent, and so any policy that opposes incitement of violence must remove Nazism as a matter of course. That's also an active and aggressively political stance, not an apolitical one.

On the other hand, as I've noted, you can't remove political statements completely. If you set as your method to achieving that pleasant environment, you will as an inherent necessity be forced to define which political statements that are acceptable and which aren't. You're putting yourself in the position to decide what issues will be politicized. So Blizzard cannot use this method to simply create an environment without also making their own political statements in doing it.

And once Blizzard has made their political statements, we have the what of the problem that garners them the criticism. No amount of why can change it at that point.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
Apparently so, claims Blizzard: "Over the weekend, blitzchung used his segment to make a statement about the situation in Hong Kong—in violation of rules he acknowledged and understood, and this is why we took action." I haven't seen any denial of the knowledge of these rules by Blitzchung.
Thats not an explanation as to why you think it should be that way, specifically in regards to a statement made raised over human rights.
 
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uzipukki

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,722
"Let's ban a guy right after he makes a political statement"
two hours later
"the political statement had no bearing on our decision".

Lol.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,225
Completely agreed. I think it just gets more difficult for companies in times of rampant globalization. Blizzard's entire shizophrenic approach to LGBTQ representation, where they go full woke in the west but make it so they can easily delete it entirely in their Russian or Chinese markets, is a good example. At some point people will notice and see through the ways companies only use political stances when it benefits them financially.

Companies want to have their cake and eat it too. Cater to each demographic and market without alienating others. Of course, I fully believe there are artists and creators at companies like Blizzard who fully believe in diversity and representation. I don't doubt their sincerity. But when these products that bank on their palatable representation are being traded around by these giant corporations... it gets dicey.

I'm much more inclined to take directors, writers, creators, etc. at their word if they want to spread a positive message than a corporation. Corporations chase the money and the creative people try to meet them in the middle with their vision.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,114
Oh, and on "Nintendo wouldn't allow someone to talk about Nazi atrocities",

...

Time Twist: Rekishi no Katasumi de... (タイムツイスト 歴史のかたすみで…, Time Twist: On the Outskirts of History...) is a text-based adventure game developed by Pax Softnica under Nintendo EAD and published by Nintendo for the Family Computer Disk System in 1991.
Gypsy charm An ancient good-luck charm placed within a pendant. An incantation that dispels the devil is engraved on its star-shaped metal plate. It was given to an American soldier by a prisoner of war.

Trying to remember if Wolfenstein was ever in a Nintendo Direct.
 

PowerBar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
99
The Netherlands
Seeing how they admit they reacted to quickly, and they're adjusting thr penalty, it's hard to believe the content didn't have any influence on their reaction in the first place. And then one has to wonder why you would react so fiercely to this subject matter. I'm almost convinced that if this was let say for instance a statement about Brexit, the initial. reaction would be a lot less severe. Even if I understand they don't want any political issues addressed during their tournaments.
 
Nov 1, 2017
8,061
hPgFtH3.png
 

Tahnit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,965
this shit with china overtaking everything is getting fucking scary. companies need to start pushing back against this or just dont get in bed with that shit.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,895
Las Vegas
"Let's ban a guy right after he makes a political statement"
two hours later
"the political statement had no bearing on our decision".

Lol.

Blizzard enjoys being political when their social analytics show that they'll make more sales than they'll lose. But when the politics goes against their bottom line, "we are about entertainment and games not about politics."

yeah ok dude
 

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,554
One of the things that stands out to be about this entire situation is the fact that Blizzard themselves did nothing to warrant the anger of the chinese government in the first place, it was just someone who plays hearthstone saying something, he doesn't even work for Blizzard and Blizzard didn't endorse what he said.

If the chinese government is so sensitive that it would take such extreme actions (such as banning Blizzards games over something like this) at what point do you as a corporation have to say "This is ridiculous, we didn't do anything to warrant such action, we're not dealing with you".

The only thing Blizzard accomplished here was to make themselves look like villains and piss off a bunch of their players, and their games might get banned anyways because their players are associating OW characters with freedom. So you've created this stupid controversy for no reason.
 

Heromanz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,202
One of the things that stands out to be about this entire situation is the fact that Blizzard themselves did nothing to warrant the anger of the chinese government in the first place, it was just someone who plays hearthstone saying something, he doesn't even work for Blizzard and Blizzard didn't endorse what he said.

If the chinese government is so sensitive that it would take such extreme actions (such as banning Blizzards games over something like this) at what point do you as a corporation have to say "This is ridiculous, we didn't do anything to warrant such action, we're not dealing with you".

The only thing Blizzard accomplished here was to make themselves look like villains and piss off a bunch of their players, and their games might get banned anyways because their players are associating OW characters with freedom. So you've created this stupid controversy for no reason.
Here is why
giphy.gif
 

AmFreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,508
Blizzard dont care about your social rights and freedoms unless it can earn thrm more cash.

(Free Hong Kong)
You could even get the idea that the latter is the aim of a company.
Companies don't have morals, they are artifical constructs existing to do business.
If you think Blizzard is the odd one here you are wrong, if you think other companies put "rights or freedoms" before profit you are wrong, if you think this happens only in China you are wrong.
 

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
One of the things that stands out to be about this entire situation is the fact that Blizzard themselves did nothing to warrant the anger of the chinese government in the first place, it was just someone who plays hearthstone saying something, he doesn't even work for Blizzard and Blizzard didn't endorse what he said.

If the chinese government is so sensitive that it would take such extreme actions (such as banning Blizzards games over something like this) at what point do you as a corporation have to say "This is ridiculous, we didn't do anything to warrant such action, we're not dealing with you".

The only thing Blizzard accomplished here was to make themselves look like villains and piss off a bunch of their players, and their games might get banned anyways because their players are associating OW characters with freedom. So you've created this stupid controversy for no reason.
Because China has a market over a billion people.
 

Hikari

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,712
Elysium
This company has their head so far up their own arse it is not even funny to see. This is the worst statement I have ever witnessed or close to it. Really? You want to apologize but still punish the player for half a year? CORE VALUES GUYS. Fuck off actiblizzard and rot like you deserve.
 

PandaShake

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,466
They fucked up and the message does nothing. They realized they could have tried a retaliatory action, that can both appease China while hiding it from the West by having it be read as a violation of their vague rules not matter the message, too late. Downgrading to 6 months tells just that.
 

nampad

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,238
Politicians and corporations will keep being spineless. All we might get are some "harsh" words.

Nothing really happened after Tiananmen. No one cares for the Uighurs. Hongkong won't be able to keep it up without an outcry from outside.
 
How to support hong kong if you don't know how
Oct 25, 2017
2,644

He made a decent point. Boycott Blizzard but don't forget to contribute to the Hong Kong protests more directly. I'm gonna find a site to donate money and message my congressional representatives about China.

For those who want to support Hong Kong remotely and don't know how, or don't know what to do beyond merely spreading awareness: the more concrete your objective is, the better. Refer to this guide if you don't know where to start: it's a reference card for political contact points and avenues for donation covering many countries.

Look for specific pressure points and things that can be done. In the UK, for instance, lobby for the redress of the long-standing second-class passport status of Hong Kongers with British (BNO) passports but no right of abode. In the US, follow the UK's lead in targeting the export of tear gas canisters and other crowd-control mechanisms to China and the Hong Kong police, who have been deploying them in hazardous circumstances in flagrant disregard of safety guidelines. In Canada, help stand against mainland counter-pressure that has led to everything from the harassment of fellow immigrants to sackings for political speech in Chinese-language broadcasting—very easy to miss if you're not plugged into those communities and can't see that for months they've been dealing with the same things we are facing now.

On the Internet, one very meaningful contribution anyone can make is to learn to identify pro-China, out-of-context misinformation and propaganda that selectively presents the demonstrators as violent instigators—in some cases, openly lying about events where the truth was clearly documented on video. We've seen a trickle of that here on this very forum; it's everywhere, it's torrential, and the only way to deal with it is for as many people as possible to be armed with the truth. Just as with the home front, debunking fake news before it takes root needs to be a distributed effort. Learn the incidents; preserve the evidence.

And thank you, all of you, for taking an interest in this past our local concerns about how China is undermining our entertainment industries.
 
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Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid

I don't know what shocks me more, that this guy is still drawing comics, that they're still every bit as abysmally, migraine-inducingly terrible, or that they still have all the subtlety of being hit by a sledgehammer taped to the windshield of a speeding double decker bus.

On second thought, I'm only shocked by the first of the above.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,644
I don't know what shocks me more, that this guy is still drawing comics, that they're still every bit as abysmally, migraine-inducingly terrible, or that they still have all the subtlety of being hit by a sledgehammer taped to the windshield of a speeding double decker bus.

On second thought, I'm only shocked by the first of the above.

His comics may be dreadful, but you've got to admit he's uniquely qualified to comment on a miscarriage of justice.
 

Deleted member 23212

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
11,225
Let's be perfectly honest here, neither state is anywhere close to a "revolt". To say otherwise would be fooling ourselves with wishful thinking.
I know, and they want to keep it that way, and a way of doing so is by justifying their legitimacy through nationalism and "protecting our people" because the justification of having a stable economy is not as credible as it once was.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
One of the things that stands out to be about this entire situation is the fact that Blizzard themselves did nothing to warrant the anger of the chinese government in the first place, it was just someone who plays hearthstone saying something, he doesn't even work for Blizzard and Blizzard didn't endorse what he said.

If the chinese government is so sensitive that it would take such extreme actions (such as banning Blizzards games over something like this) at what point do you as a corporation have to say "This is ridiculous, we didn't do anything to warrant such action, we're not dealing with you".

The only thing Blizzard accomplished here was to make themselves look like villains and piss off a bunch of their players, and their games might get banned anyways because their players are associating OW characters with freedom. So you've created this stupid controversy for no reason.


Keep in mind that it was the Chinese branch of Blizzard who did this and Chinese companies that are proactive supporters of their nefarious government will all be as quick to suppress dissent against the government.

From their point of view this wasn't a stupid controversy, this was a voice against their government that must be squashed.

You have to take into context that is Blizzard China who acted first and Blizzard USA had to respond to their decision and their response still ended up being terrible.