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Kwhit10

Member
Oct 27, 2017
616
"Could" being key here. Also Texan gas isn't flared at one magical central location, otherwise it would be captured and exported as LNG which is was less carbon intensive than Coal and actually makes sense as a very transitory power source. What are you going to do? Set up a small steam generator to power a 3080 rig whenever they flare at the thousands of places they do?

That's the engineering problem to solve here. So until so one provides an actual solution you're just greenwashing BS. I guarantee you that almost all the value in crypto is maintained by large scale centralized facilities next to coal power plants.

Also the major coins have been moving to POS next year for about the last 5 years, so calling major BS on that too.
That is exactly what they do. Companies send a shipping container full of ASIC miners ready to go. Hook up that specific flare point to a generator to power the container full of miners. It doesn't need a central supply.
www.businessinsider.com

Meet Crusoe Energy, which mines bitcoin using flare gas from oil drilling

Crusoe Energy's technology can dramatically cut emissions from gas flaring at oil patches – all while "mining" cryptocurrencies.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,512
Oh, I didn't realize we were talking about putting all savings into the one asset. Didn't even occur to me that someone would see it that way. Obviously you need to diversify, nothing is certain.
That's usually what people do. Like most investments, even stocks, it is never advisable to put all your eggs in one basket.

I would hope nobody is doing that.
I'm glad we're aligned on that lol.
 

Kasumin

Member
Nov 19, 2017
1,950
Because my timeframe is years. I'm not in and out of this. The volatility over years is insignificant to me. I just know that by holding for at least 4 years the risk is very low and the reward is much greater. It's a fantastic asymetric bet on long time horizons
Your time scale is years? And yet you just conveniently ignore how the next few decades will be impacted by disastrous effects of climate change? Well, I guess you can use your crypto-derived fortune to buy a position in the Reddit CEO's slave commune after society collapses.

Edit: Oof, I see I'm wasting my time.
 

Kwhit10

Member
Oct 27, 2017
616
Your time scale is years? And yet you just conveniently ignore how the next few decades will be impacted by disastrous effects of climate change? Well, I guess you can use your crypto-derived fortune to buy a position in the Reddit CEO's slave commune after society collapses.

Yea I don't believe humanity will collapse this century from the average world temperature increasing.
 

Jebusman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,093
Halifax, NS
The proof of work aspect of a lot of crypto is the thing that never made sense to me. It's so pointless. I agree with the rest of what bitcoin offers but why use proof of work?

So cryptocurrencies can't exist without something to validate it.

All fiat currency cannot exist without some sort of validation.

The very point of fiat currency is that it holds no intrinsic value (aka the material the object is made of isn't valuable, or nominally low compared to the amount it represents), but that some sort of central authority grants it value, and that guarantee is what allows us to exchange it with each other for goods and services, because at the end of the day the requirements for you living in that country (aka paying your taxes) can be met with that currency. Americans buy and sell things with US dollars, because US dollars is what's needed to pay your taxes in the US. Some people in the US will accept other forms of currency (like Canadian dollars, or mexican pesos), because "those" governments have offered guarantees to it's value, and your ability to exchange that currency to USD grants it value.

Someone also has to keep a record of these transactions, because now that the money itself has no inherent value, the idea of having intangible value exists. Someone needs to keep track of how much "money" you hold, even if you aren't "physically" holding it.

The problem that crypto evangelists put forth, is that there was no good way of universally sending cash from person to person without dealing with currency exchanges and exchange rates, or lack of support for certain countries for these money transfer services, and political interference making current fiat currencies inherently untrustworthy (in their eyes).

These central authorities can simply print as much cash as they want, or arbitrarily decide to no longer recognize previously printed bills, and you, as an individual, have no control over that. Western Union and other wire transfer services have too many fees and take too long. The internet is becoming more and more ubiquitous world wide, but access to financial services still lag behind. Banks could simply decide to fuck off with the cash you entrusted them.

So why not make a "digital" currency. Some universal unit of value in which no individual holds control over. Free from political borders, transferring should be seamless and painless. By dividing the consensus amongst a decentralized group, it should be immune to the whims of an individual government manipulating it's value. But how do you impart the same level of guarantee that a central authority does, if there is no central authority by design? How do you ensure transactions are filled, that people aren't just scammed out of their money? That someone doesn't just decide to "undo" a transaction when no one person has the final say on what the record is? How do you achieve "consensus" on what the "truth" is?


Proof of work. It provides the validation required to make a "currency" by tying all transaction history to a system that would be extraordinarily difficult to overthrow on your own (in theory). Everyone is working to prove the same transaction history. If you attempt to provide a record that doesn't mesh with the rest of the group (the majority), you're rejected. The only way to surmount this is to have control over 50% of all the workers, so that way your history (as you decide to write it) is the "correct" one. The work is tied to arbitrarily difficult equations that need to be solved. Having to control 51% of the workers in a decentralized system of increasingly difficult (and time consuming) equations of a sufficient scale should be a fairly insurmountable task.

But just how "640k ought to be enough for anybody" was wrong (which is not a real quote btw), PoW was not a future thinking design. The scale in which it grew was exponential. Because of mining pools and the ever-present risk of a 51% attack, an arms race begins. I don't think they considered the idea of ASICs when coming up with this. Because the generation of wealth in Bitcoin is directly tied to the work going in to maintaining the network, there's always an incentive to add more workers to try and exact as much of that wealth for yourself as possible (so long as the cost of building these ASICs is low enough to recoup your costs in rewards from mining in a reasonable timeframe).

So how do you solve that?

I've seen a lot of support for Proof of Stake, where consensus is now achieved by making those who actually "hold" the currency the ones who validate the network. In theory so long as no one owned more than 51% of the total supply of the currency, it should achieve the same result as PoW (aka no one person gets to write history). The problem (at least from what I see), is that many of these PoS currencies also tie rewards to this. So the more currency you hold, the greater "reward" you can get by being a larger percentage of the overall total. It just encourages hoarding of wealth rather than actually, you know, using it, and almost codifies the idea that the rich get richer (and do it faster than the poor). It's also irrelevant when talking about Bitcoin, because Bitcoin can't change. It's going to be PoW forever.

And Ethereum, I'll be genuinely shocked the day it actually moves to PoS. They just keep pushing it back over and over, I think they know there's a disincentive to doing so.



So in summary, PoW exists because it's the "simplest" means in which to achieve what normally a central authority/banks would provide, while ignoring all the ramifications of what that actually means outside of the currency itself (like power or material consumption). PoS, while gaining in popularity, is held back by it's being codified that those who hold the most wealth grow their wealth faster than you (and those with vested interest in PoW due to supplying or owning the equipment for it not wanting things to change)
 
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Freezasaurus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
57,070
giphy.gif
 

Kasumin

Member
Nov 19, 2017
1,950
Yea I don't believe humanity will collapse this century from the average world temperature increasing.
You're naive. Human society will be hugely impacted negatively.

You just hand wave a "oh, we'll innovate our way out of it" argument to set your mind at ease. We can't innovate our way out of every problem.

But whatever, I've read through this thread and replying to you is a waste of time. People like you make me glad I don't have kids.
 

XMonkey

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,827
You're naive. Human society will be hugely impacted negatively.

You just hand wave a "oh, we'll innovate our way out of it" argument to set your mind at ease. We can't innovate our way out of every problem.

But whatever, I've read through this thread and replying to you is a waste of time. People like you make me glad I don't have kids.
It's gonna be ok for them, they got those crypto gains so no big deal.
 

Palette Swap

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
11,262
So what's the alternative? We just continue to allow threads to take a subset of users on the forum and just dogpile constantly?

Have fun then.
I mean, they could just stop peddling their shit in every one of these threads with dumb whataboutisms. Will someone think of the poor cryptoevangelists lmao
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,715
Well I've enjoyed tuning into this week's edition of Crypto Bros Make Utter Tits of Themselves. The climate change denial was a fun little twist.
 

shacklesmcgee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,706
Will someone think of the poor cryptoevangelists lmao

They're being unfairly targeted! Yet they themselves put the target on their backs by entering threads to defend a currently useless world destroying scam and trying to convince others they're wrong about it and should join in.

Also, if crypto really *is* so awesome and these people are making so much money, why should they give a shit if they're being "targeted" on a video game forum?
 
Oct 25, 2017
21,518
Sweden
Based on what though? Because some people don't like it? What forum rules is it breaking?
it's breaking the same kind of rules that an ot for cyperpunk 2077 would be breaking. it feeds discussion from which nothing good can come. the presence of the thread and for this site to be a host of it causes more problem than any potential benefit it can bring. the entire concept of crypto is repugnant
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
22,187
Makes sense. Thankfully my rig use hydro so should be Gucci. Power companies should start charging a lot more for increased energy consumption to where it is hard to justify the utility bill when you might make $2 in profit a month.
 

Soriku

Member
Nov 12, 2017
6,915
it's breaking the same kind of rules that an ot for cyperpunk 2077 would be breaking. it feeds discussion from which nothing good can come. the presence of the thread and for this site to be a host of it causes more problem than any potential benefit it can bring. the entire concept of crypto is repugnant

No...Cyberpunk's main issue was its disregard for the trans community, which Era has a sizeable community of. You think this is comparable to discussions about crypto investments?

Stop backseat modding bro.

Edit: and for that matter the Cyberpunk OT isn't even locked
 

Exposure

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,673
Also I gotta say, the posters trying to whatabout people on climate change concerns by saying "but what about your classism era" in a thread where you're trying to advocate for crypto is like

the most ballsy fucking thing I gotta say, like goddamn

especially when I immediately know what example said people are going try to pull out to reply to me , and let me tell you, does not seem to be going that well in El Salvador all things considered.

like seriously it's kinda amazing just howlong that tweet feed has gotten in terms of someone just going around and seeing how many people got hit with the "hey my money suddenly disappeared with the official government app meant to encourage crypto usage":


like you get halfway through this twitter list, and it's already like, $100,000 USD worth of bitcoin gone in the wind
 

samcastor

Member
Apr 21, 2021
2,085
The fact that all advocates for cryptocurrency are still basing all their conversation around its "value" in terms of fiat money is indicative of this whole operation failing to achieve what it set out to be. If all people "invested" in cryptos are there to seek some gains outside the system in the form of fiat money, then cryptos are just a wasteful middleman out of regulation's reach.
 

construct

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Jun 5, 2020
8,042
東京
It actually uses a lot of wasted energy (stranded energy). You know all those flares you see near oil drilling? That's methane that is being burned and wasted to the atmosphere since it has no use at that moment. A lot of US miners use that stranded methane convert to electricity in the middle of no where to mine Bitcoin. The generator then releases CO2 (40x better as a greenhouse gas than methane).

Just because there is energy that exists in the world doesn't mean it can actually b
nope
 

Dyno

AVALANCHE
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,381
It's amazing that people against crypto are banned for derailing in a thread about cryptos inceeasing consumption meanwhile apologists that came in and began the derail are unscathed
 

Inugami

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,995
It's amazing that people against crypto are banned for derailing in a thread about cryptos inceeasing consumption meanwhile apologists that came in and began the derail are unscathed
Had happened in a couple antiNFT threads too... If nothing else is really bad optics when the pro people come in, provoke people, and then the anti-crpyto users get banned instead of the ones starting it.

It's the same people in every thread too.
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
General Manager
Oct 25, 2017
32,904
Official Staff Communication
Hey, knock off the "we should ban x from Era" discussions. It stops.
 

Fliep

Banned
Feb 13, 2018
460
User Banned (1 week): ignoring staff post, thread derail
It's amazing that people against crypto are banned for derailing in a thread about cryptos inceeasing consumption meanwhile apologists that came in and began the derail are unscathed

We have threads about fast food, investment in stocks which hurt the environment, fast fashion etc. If we want era to be pure eco we would need a whole lot of threads gone. To be honest I don't care much about the discussion about crypto because everyone is acting high and mighty while their bank where they have their savings is investing their money in oil corps and Lockheed and Martin. You sure should criticise crypto, but if you want to do something about climate change than act like it.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
The more everything shifts to blockchain, the more I want to see a Carrington level event wipe out every computer on the planet.
It's pretty much only stupid stuff that is moving to the blockchain.
That data structure existed since the 80s and there is a reason it was rarely used. There is just isn't much usage for a super slow an inefficient public database that cannot scale.

Like for real they have been promising us that The Blockchain is going to change the world of computer tech for years now but it's mostly used for bullshit like NFTs.

But VCs are dumb as fuck and as long as they'll keep giving money to people who say "blockchain" to them you'll keep seeing people trying to make it happen.
 

PBalfredo

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,510
User Banned (1 week): ignoring staff post, thread derail
How come hydrophilic attack and RomanticHeroX get banned for responding to Euphoria, who is the actual one who brought up "we should ban x from Era" as a "just asking questions" style derail tactic?

Well I find it odd how a forum clearly allows discussion (they have an official thread), while at the same time allow those same users to just be targets in threads like these.
 

Dyno

AVALANCHE
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,381
User Banned (1 week): ignoring staff post, thread derail
We have threads about fast food, investment in stocks which hurt the environment, fast fashion etc. If we want era to be pure eco we would need a whole lot of threads gone. To be honest I don't care much about the discussion about crypto because everyone is acting high and mighty while their bank where they have their savings is investing their money in oil corps and Lockheed and Martin. You sure should criticise crypto, but if you want to do something about climate change than act like it.
Lmao. Sorry I didn't pass your litmus test for posting on the Internet. Not that you even know anything about me to have made that last judgement. Nor did anything you posted have a single thing to do with what I said about the derailing and where it started but carry on I guess
 

Exposure

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,673
Also the reason people keep bringing up the crypto re: climate change is ironically because like

one of the aforementioned super ballsy posters mentioned how stuff like degrowth or removing legacy stuff that we rely on in favour of new stuff is going to be really hard and how people try avoiding it when possible, which is true! That's fair, that's a totally human thing we need to deal with!

which is why crypto trying to assert itself sucks because like, it's entire grand purpose in terms of what it has actually accomplished in is being the spearhead of a movement to make the Internet worse and rely on scarcity like the real world except with no real reason as to why things are scarce, like everything I've heard about "web 3.0" just keeps circling back to a theme of "wait this is just web 1.0 but you made it worse"

in terms of stuff we need to stop doing because letting it continue to grow is a complete waste on the planet it is absolutely a consistently top thing people name because it's already managing to fuck with countries' green initiatives (because now you got a suddenly high energy need for something with near zero utility in addition to your already made plans for greening out industries like aluminum smelting or datacenters that also require high amounts of energy), and that's when it's still in this nascent state of being a thing that primarily those already rich benefit from

like when you keep going on on how about it's the future and everything, people can reasonably extrapolate and go "wait what the fuck that's terrible"

yes part of it is because it's a lot easier to stop a thing that hasn't gained much traction yet vs how we have large challenges ahead like "ok so making cement's can be incredibly carbon intensive and also a large amount of how we build things in general is reliant on it"

but I mean that doesn't mean you shouldn't do the easy thing anyway, it just means you just can't say problem's solved nothing else needs to be done when you do it
 

Bedlam

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,536
So that's like 0.1% of all global emissions? Lmaooo, why do people care. And EVs did that little? My god we are not making it out the hood with these half-assed steps towards reducing our impact.
That's a rather large share for
an absolutely useless entity such as crypto
+ every bit counts
+ power consumption of crypto seems to increase exponentially which is extremely worrisome

We are getting nowhere with that short-sighted "not worth the effort" attitude of yours.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Don't worry everyone. Crypto bros and tech billionaires will come to the rescue any day now with magic climate improvement technology.
It's literally the same scam as clean coal.
"Sure, the technology as it exists right now burning the planet, but we have a secret future tech that is going to magically fix those problem, it's going to be ready any day now, so yeah, stop talking to us about climate change".
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever™
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,523
It's literally the same scam as clean coal.
"Sure, the technology as it exists right now burning the planet, but we have a secret future tech that is going to magically fix those problem, it's going to be ready any day now, so yeah, stop talking to us about climate change".
Forgot about the term "clean coal". It's now tattooed into my lexicon for when I see people talking about environmentally friendly and / or beneficial cryptocurrencies.
 

Bedlam

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,536
It's literally the same scam as clean coal.
"Sure, the technology as it exists right now burning the planet, but we have a secret future tech that is going to magically fix those problem, it's going to be ready any day now, so yeah, stop talking to us about climate change".
It's really going to end like Don't Look Up but in slow motion.

"Yeah sorry, when we pretended to care during those last hot decades, what we really did was build spaceships for us. I mean, you morons saw us rich fucks all suddenly start private space programs and suspected nothing? lol"

The EU is about to label fossil gas "green energy" btw. Same shit as "clean coal". Fudge the numbers, ignore reality, satisfy lobby interests.
 
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Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
It's really going to end like Don't Look Up but in slow motion.

"Yeah sorry, when we pretended to care during those last hot decades, what we really did was build spaceships for us. I mean, you morons saw us rich fucks all suddenly start private space programs and suspected nothing? lol"
I haven't seen Don't Look Up, but the thing about climate change is that unlike a civilization ending meteor, rich people are probably going to be just fine with climate change.
And I think that's why most of the people who got filthy rich of crypto don't give a shit about climate change.
Like I donno, I think there are probably some true believers who honest to god bought that bullshit, but I generally think that most of the tech CEOs who argue super hard that crypto is actually not terrible for the planet are arguing in bad faith, because saying "lol fuck the planet I'm getting paidddddd the fuck do I care?" is less palatable.
 
Nov 30, 2017
2,750
Because it is wasting energy on purpose.

I'd literally never heard of any of those before this post, and it is very probable that I will never hear about any of them ever again. If you need to be an enthusiast to even know about them, any significance they hold is highly debatable at best.

You can point to all the proof of stake coins you want, but it doesn't mean anything while the two biggest ones are still proof of stake. Especially with how long "Etherium is going to switch to proof of stake" has been used as a handwave of its power usage without said switch actually materializing.

how have you never heard of Solana when celebs are constantly using it now to mint their NFT's?

also in the past year it has done 40x more transactions than ETH has in its entire lifetime.

But I guess the only reason you hear of BTC and ETH is because of ERA threads about power consumption. Otherwise you would have never heard of them. Other than maybe BTC on financial channels
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
The tech is here. The reason ETH is taking so long because it's infrastructure is rooted in POW. And to change it over to POS without any vulnerabilities is hard as fuck without screwing over people
I've heard promises about how crypto gonna stop burning the planet for well over a decade now. I doubted them then, I still doubt them now, a whole lot of people who couldn't code told me I don't understand computers, and yet, look at where we are.
Things has only got worse.

Is there any timetable where you might start to think that maybe this "green crypto" is as real as "clean coal"?
Like if in 5 years we're still only see growth in crypto power usage you might revisit this?
 

ftchrs

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
276
I don't see the problem—all of the economic value generated by Bitcoin can be invested into green energy. In fact without Bitcoin the world would currently be about 1 trillion USD poorer.