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BBC News - Toronto van attack: Inside the dark world of 'incels'
- Thread starter CeeCee
- Start date
OP
OP
I don't really think incels deserve sympathy. There's a vast difference between the incel mindset and the traditional 'forever alone' mindset, which does deserve sympathy. The 'forever alone' mindset focuses all the blame inwards on themselves (generally incorrectly), whereas the incel mindset places all the blame on women.
EDIT: to expand on that - people struggling with feelings of rejection and inadequacy deserve a lot of sympathy (I'd be a hypocrite to disagree given that I certainly did). However, you lose that when you adopt this mindset that it's all because women are vapid barely human creatures etc.
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Yeah. I guess I'm just shocked that this movement formed instead of something useful and positive.
This is not how radicalization works. Deplattforming is the core of fighting such ideologies, because such ideologies can only form a critical mass if they have platforms.
In fact, it is the mere fact that a platform exists for them that allows them to even come into being as a group. Incels are what you get when you get enough people that blame women for their failings, give their hatred a name, and start imagining an ideology around it. Cut off the platform, and there's nothing left to hold them together.
The contemplacy to just let the platforms be, claim that any action against them is pointless, is what lets them grow.
ya, i'm not a fan of that train of thought at all. most people experience what they experience. rejection and insecurity.
OP
OP
Sure, I don't disagree (I edited my post just after you posted this to something which better reflects that).
It's accurate, though. The mere fact that they chose to enact their pain in this way makes them contemptible.
Compare this to people that are actually marginalized, such as, say, LGBT people. Guess what? We didn't blame men and form terror cells to kill as many men as possible, we didn't form echo chambers to tell each other that women are evil and deserve to be stripped of basic human rights.
We did the exact opposite, we fought for our rights, and slowly made things better, not just for us individually, but for other people like us. Look at the LGBT term, which in itself is a combination of four different groups, and expanded the letters quite a bit (such as adding the Q, for genderqueer), showing it to be quite inclusive and perfectly willing to extend sympathy to other groups, and fight for them, too. Despite facing FAR, FAR, FAR worse opposition and hatred from the general population than incels face.
Incels had the chance to group together and then work to improve their own situation, but instead they chose to focus on women and try to make women as miserable as possible. This was blatantly obvious in 2014, when they went for Zoe Quinn. Remember why they did so back then: Because she made a game about depression. Even back then, their hatred for women was so radicalized that they genuinely made themselves believe that women were incapable of depression.
At one point, incels have to take responsibility for what they are doing. The mere fact that they can keep telling themselves that everyone else is at fault for their pain, that they need to change nothing, put no effort into anything, and that everyone else needs to comfort THEM, that is the problem.
That very entitlement is the core problem with their entire ideology. How can this ever improve if it won't get addressed?
Maybe I didn't express myself clearly, but what I meant isn't that this is the left/liberals fault, at all. The only ones to blame are the enablers of this toxic culture online (I doubt this 'movement' is purely organic), and the 'incels' themselves.
What I meant is that from a combat perspective, not taking this kind of thing seriously is a mistake when you are on the right side. We saw this through history, decent/militant people believing too much in 'common sense' when this is something that varies wildly. To fight this, the movements must see this as the threat as this is, an organized, toxic movement who are getting youths to develop bitter and dangerous mentalities towards entire (minority included) groups, not as some poor pathetic inoffensive virgins locked in basements far far away. The fact that many people didn't even know they existed is a sign of this problem.
When you see a columnist in one of the biggest media outlets in the world suggesting they 'make kinda sense' we have a problem.
An issue that I think is becoming more prevalent is that teenage boys are being introduced to incel culture before even experiencing any sort of heartbreak or rejection. So now you have a bunch of toxic assholes who believe that their interactions with women are predicated on them being perceived as worthless and their view of women as being a manipulative person with a hole they think they deserve. It's the dumbest fucking shit. It's a group of immature males who don't want to do the work of improving themselves and would rather sit back and jerk each other off over how much they hate women.
I think two things will happen, either society comes to understand the implications that social media combined with toxic view points is a recipe for trouble and will try to do something to remedy the issue or this will fizzle out until the next tragedy
And that is precisely the problem, it's very accessible and doesn't label itself as the extremist recruiting website that it is. I have been in favor of it getting shut down since before the 2016 elections and look at just how much harm it has done since then. Whoever owns it should be ashamed of themselves for brainwashing so many young people with bullshit and hateful ideas.
OP
OP
This is a very good point; young teenagers are experiencing their first rejection and rather than dealing with it in a healthy way they're being radicalised and going completely off the deep end.
All of these things: terrorism, incels, suicide promotion, etc etc. are all the other edge to the sword of video game forums, disease support groups, etc.
You can't provide a technology that allows individuals to form groups organically and then only apply it to groups you like. Either you shut down the Internet or you accept it'll happen.
Deplatforming wont work long term. Websites grow organically wherever there is a critical mass of likeminded people. GAF OT could've just as easily become a neo Nazi recruiting forum as an ultra-left wing forum with different members and moderators.
We need to find a way to deal with the problem, not just hope that we can keep playing whack-a-mole on the largest groups of crazies.
You can't provide a technology that allows individuals to form groups organically and then only apply it to groups you like. Either you shut down the Internet or you accept it'll happen.
Deplatforming wont work long term. Websites grow organically wherever there is a critical mass of likeminded people. GAF OT could've just as easily become a neo Nazi recruiting forum as an ultra-left wing forum with different members and moderators.
We need to find a way to deal with the problem, not just hope that we can keep playing whack-a-mole on the largest groups of crazies.
We seem to be able to shut down ISIS groups on such sites quickly, and thus were able to massively hamper their recruitment among western youth. The mafia sure doesn't seem to have open recruitment spots there, nor do drug cartels.
But the instant it's mainly white guys doing the terror, we act like there's nothing we can do, since apparently, NOW the only alternative is either do nothing or shut it all down.
Weird!
Why can't we just try to shut down such groups, for a change, like we'd take down any other group doing illegal acts on, say, reddit? Why can we shut down a warez site, but not 4chan? Why is this so unthinkable?
I can access ISIS propaganda if I want. I can access warez if I want. In the U.K. we have an entire national firewall dedicated to stopping pirate movies and it's had zero effect.
What you can do is push them further into the shadows. But you can't solve the underlying problem, you're just treating symptoms.
Look shut down all the speech you disagree with if you want, you just won't get me saying it's a smart move to solve the problem. Trying to make problems go away by just banning their expression has literally never worked in history, but I'm sure this time we've got it down.
I didn't say that they should leave them a platform, but it borders at delusion to actually believe that just taking away popular platforms on Reddit or 4chan that the problem would be solved or no further radicalisation occurs. If not followed up by comprehensive preventative or rehabilitative measures all that happens is that disparate splinter groups will reconvene on new platforms and start recruiting once more.
One of the key strategies in fighting online radicalisation from ISIS is to actually engage those at danger and give a way out to those wanting to escape.
Just take a freaking look at the rise of racism and fascism all over the US and Europe. Turns out just ignoring a problem is only procrastination.
It's the same lazy and despicable approach as city planners take to hide away homeless people to non tourist areas like here in Vienna.
More likely the result of entitlement built through years of mass media indoctrination into thinking every mediocre white boy deserves a incredibly attractive woman as most tv shows and movies show
The latest episode of "Reply All" goes into the origins of "Incel".
It's very interesting and worth a listen. Shocking how something that originally started as a support group became warped and distorted into the vitriolic, hate filled cesspit that exists today
It's very interesting and worth a listen. Shocking how something that originally started as a support group became warped and distorted into the vitriolic, hate filled cesspit that exists today
It has an effect, though. It makes it harder.
It will never be impossible, but it would be much harder, which is the important bit.
Yes, letting fanatic hate groups just do their thing and doing nothing has never worked, but since it's poor white guys, I guess we can just let them do their thing and do nothing. I mean, it's just women/LGBTQ people they're harming, who cares, am I right?
Totally okay that one of the largest websites, namely reddit, the so-called frontpage of the internet, has multiple groups dedicated to spreading incel hatred that can therefore easily recruit additional members (and, since they can do so in the open, do so while looking entirely legitimate and fine, since they don't even have to hide!).
Literally nobody said that this would be the only neccessary step. That you immediately dismiss anything that is not a 100% fix-all-forever solution is very telling.
It's an easy cop-out, all solutions are dismissed, we can't do a thing, just have to throw our hands in the air and watch them continue killing people and radicalizing others.
It is very strange that when a specific demographic starts harassing and killing people, we always compartmentalize and then dismiss every single part of the solution, and then end up being able to do nothing.
If we'd approach any other problem like that, we'd still live in caves.
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It's not so much entitlement but rather as a feeling of worthlessness for some. I didn't have a single date in high school, I felt like a loser. This was a long time ago and I didn't feel entitled nor did I have any extremist communities to join
Of course it's high school and it's generally pretty ruthless so people who are on the outside of being "cool".
A lot of these guys join these communities just looking for someone to talk to and instead they end up getting radicalized by the extreme members. If these communities were properly moderated it wouldn't be a problem, but they seem to encourage this.
foreveralone is a more tame subreddit on this topic but that place is depressing as hell and those people seem to have given up.
I recommend y'all listen to the recent episode of Reply-All on incels.
They interview the founder of the original support group where the term was coined, and I was surprised to learn it was a queer woman who started the movement. She had much more noble intentions... Then, it got coopted by lonely men and turned into the crap heap it is today.
They interview the founder of the original support group where the term was coined, and I was surprised to learn it was a queer woman who started the movement. She had much more noble intentions... Then, it got coopted by lonely men and turned into the crap heap it is today.
It's entitlement when instead of focusing on improving yourself, you commiserate with people festering in feeling of worthlessness and developing fantasy's of hating and harming people who have decades to improve themselves.
Lots of people don't have dates in high school. That's why you move on with your life and hopefully develop into someone people like to date. Ever heard of "late bloomers"?
It's entitlement. We've all be rejected. We don't all develop hate for women because of it and I will not sympathize with these people because they do.
It's a little annoying to read comments that are just variations of "we don't have an absolutely perfect solution, so let's do nothing". It feels like an incredibly idealistic - and bordering on naive - idea of looking at the world and its problems.
The world is messy, and its problems are messy. They are also constructed, bit by bit, over time, stemming from many sources. It's extremely unlikely that any perfect solution to any issue will just magically pop up. Given that, echoing such a viewpoint is, at best, actively distracting from the conversation (which actually does lead to change, even if only on a personal, micro-level as you are working out the reasoning for your own ideas in dialogue with others).
This strategy, of whatabout:ing any effort to solve a problem by constantly pointing out that it's not absolutely perfect, can also come across as intellectually lazy, and saves the person making such an argument from actually knowing anything about the complexity of the issue.
You don't have to do any research in the precise mechanics of any given problem, and think of novel or interesting approaches, when you can just, instead, point out the obvious: that no solution is ever perfect, and therefor not worth pursuing.
This strategy has, ironically I guess, never been useful. All it does is discourage change of any kind, personal growth on an individual and group-level, and - perhaps unintentionally, perhaps not - make sure that that any status quo stays that way.
It's odd to see it so often used by people on the left (sometimes refered to as "purity test"), since it's such a fundamentally conservative way of engaging with the world (conservative in the sense of preserving status quo rather than changing it, though it has some spill-over into national political parties that call themselves conservative).
I have to assume it's because it comes from a highly idealistic way of looking at life, and that tends to attract young people, who wants big, bold change. But big bold change is often extremely messy, difficult to exeute, and hard to evaluate in the long-term.
Multi-faceted micro-changes that systematically work through a problem through many channels and points-of-attack, do a lot more to enact actual change than wild, idealistic stabs. But they take longer, they are not sexy. They are mundane, and boring and an endless grind. But they do work (see the hold republicans have gotten in the US through the last decades of unsexy-lowkey-work behind the scenes).
This is not an insult or attack on anyone posting in this thread. But I would like to urge you all to consider what actually is accomplished when you engage in this kind of binary-thinking. Your heart may be in the right place for wanting something all-inclusive and perfect as a solution to a problem, but in actuality, you're actively making it harder for progress to find a solution of any kind. Or refine the approaches that have already been tried, and shape them into something more precise.
We do A-and-B testing in all aspects of life (does this work? No. Ok does this work? Yes.). It's how the scientific process works. It's how we learn on a fundamental level. A problem such as this, that is exponentially more difficult to solve than finding a good lightbulb (for example), would logically need even more a-b-testing, not less. It's utterly bizzare to reason that somehow, from somewhere, will one day come a perfect solution, while also actively discouraging efforts to find out what that solution might look like.
The world is messy, and its problems are messy. They are also constructed, bit by bit, over time, stemming from many sources. It's extremely unlikely that any perfect solution to any issue will just magically pop up. Given that, echoing such a viewpoint is, at best, actively distracting from the conversation (which actually does lead to change, even if only on a personal, micro-level as you are working out the reasoning for your own ideas in dialogue with others).
This strategy, of whatabout:ing any effort to solve a problem by constantly pointing out that it's not absolutely perfect, can also come across as intellectually lazy, and saves the person making such an argument from actually knowing anything about the complexity of the issue.
You don't have to do any research in the precise mechanics of any given problem, and think of novel or interesting approaches, when you can just, instead, point out the obvious: that no solution is ever perfect, and therefor not worth pursuing.
This strategy has, ironically I guess, never been useful. All it does is discourage change of any kind, personal growth on an individual and group-level, and - perhaps unintentionally, perhaps not - make sure that that any status quo stays that way.
It's odd to see it so often used by people on the left (sometimes refered to as "purity test"), since it's such a fundamentally conservative way of engaging with the world (conservative in the sense of preserving status quo rather than changing it, though it has some spill-over into national political parties that call themselves conservative).
I have to assume it's because it comes from a highly idealistic way of looking at life, and that tends to attract young people, who wants big, bold change. But big bold change is often extremely messy, difficult to exeute, and hard to evaluate in the long-term.
Multi-faceted micro-changes that systematically work through a problem through many channels and points-of-attack, do a lot more to enact actual change than wild, idealistic stabs. But they take longer, they are not sexy. They are mundane, and boring and an endless grind. But they do work (see the hold republicans have gotten in the US through the last decades of unsexy-lowkey-work behind the scenes).
This is not an insult or attack on anyone posting in this thread. But I would like to urge you all to consider what actually is accomplished when you engage in this kind of binary-thinking. Your heart may be in the right place for wanting something all-inclusive and perfect as a solution to a problem, but in actuality, you're actively making it harder for progress to find a solution of any kind. Or refine the approaches that have already been tried, and shape them into something more precise.
We do A-and-B testing in all aspects of life (does this work? No. Ok does this work? Yes.). It's how the scientific process works. It's how we learn on a fundamental level. A problem such as this, that is exponentially more difficult to solve than finding a good lightbulb (for example), would logically need even more a-b-testing, not less. It's utterly bizzare to reason that somehow, from somewhere, will one day come a perfect solution, while also actively discouraging efforts to find out what that solution might look like.
? What could anyone possibly do about it in that position?
i take that tweet to mean if someone working for you is a forever alone type you fire them.
A lot? If you know a sizeable amount of your employees think this way, you need to figure out ways to address it.
The tweet is ambiguous. Is she calling for companies to fire people who are single and have difficulty with the opposite sex but are harmless and not hategul? How can they even tell ?
How do you even know if someone is a forever alone type? And to what ends is firing them going to do any good for anyone? You take someone who is most likely depressed, angry, and being fed toxic and violent messaging about how the world is out to get them and they should go out in a blaze if glory, and you fire them?
How would you know a sizeable amount of your employees think this way? Do you ask for their browsing history? Do you profile them? What would you even do to address it?
Yeah there's a lot more than you'd think, the standards of attractiveness in the west kinda precludes a lot of them getting much action. It's kinda brushed under the rug and ignored as it's a bad look to admit "yeah we just don't those people attractive soz", that it straight up is beyond their control in some respects leaving them with the choice of bottling it up or venting on one of those forums already mentioned or r/hapas if they're mixed
Incel;s are evil incarnate. We should start monitoring what people say online and deal with them accordingly based off what they say. I might be crazy but, Incels and Racists and Nazis are a real problem and going Big Brother is the only way to stop evil. People can not be trusted to be civil, to be good.
Background checks, mental checks, monitoring them, the whole nine yards. This is how you eliminate the Incel.
Background checks, mental checks, monitoring them, the whole nine yards. This is how you eliminate the Incel.
The problem is not with women, incels shouldn't be looking to blame women because of their insecurity just because you were rejected. Even good looking guys get rejected.
I remember being a fat gamer in my mid 20s living with my parents with no degree or self esteem and pretty much no friends. I realised that if I want a good life I'd have to change, I gave up video games for a year, went to uni, lost weight, made friends, finally lost my virginity. It's embarrassing to say my life was pretty lame but at least I recognised that and decided to act and change that.
Incels seem to realise they have issues when you look at the BBC article yet they still blame "Chad" and ladies rather than do something. At the same time, these incel groups can't be healthy with everyone just echoing a defeatist attitude. How can someone learn to improve themselves when they are surrounded by other insecure men telling them life is hopeless over and over? It's a devastating echo chamber.
I remember being a fat gamer in my mid 20s living with my parents with no degree or self esteem and pretty much no friends. I realised that if I want a good life I'd have to change, I gave up video games for a year, went to uni, lost weight, made friends, finally lost my virginity. It's embarrassing to say my life was pretty lame but at least I recognised that and decided to act and change that.
Incels seem to realise they have issues when you look at the BBC article yet they still blame "Chad" and ladies rather than do something. At the same time, these incel groups can't be healthy with everyone just echoing a defeatist attitude. How can someone learn to improve themselves when they are surrounded by other insecure men telling them life is hopeless over and over? It's a devastating echo chamber.
You can recognize the foundations of a problem without excusing people that fall into it.
There are people that think that shunning and shaming is the solution. They want background checks to see if theyve had steady girlfriends.. if not they are fired.
I was out of the loop and never realized this was the work of an "incel". I've had a couple encounters with some self-defined incels, and yikes, it's legit one of the saddest realities I've ever encountered. Like, jeez, how the hell do you end up being so bad.
You'd be wrong. I've read articles just recently where white supremists (for example) discuss how the shuttering of their recruiting grounds massively hurts their cause and makes it harder to recruit with some being on the brink. You're speaking as if you're coming from a place of enlightenment, when it's known that no good comes from letting these communities thrive.
I just googled incel and looked up news about them, just to get more insight and read about people who are a part of this group - if you're all interested, I'd recommend doing the same.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vi...cle/435g9p/how-to-help-an-incel-sex-therapist
This talks about therapy with a South Asian man who skirted the lines of being a part of the incel community, but decided to go to therapy instead of diving in, and it kind of gives you insight into the minds of some of the South Asian (currycel?) members of the movement.
It seems like this isn't just a thing that affects straight white racist men, but can be a product of internalized racism, and other things that make this not very black and white.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vi...cle/435g9p/how-to-help-an-incel-sex-therapist
This talks about therapy with a South Asian man who skirted the lines of being a part of the incel community, but decided to go to therapy instead of diving in, and it kind of gives you insight into the minds of some of the South Asian (currycel?) members of the movement.
It seems like this isn't just a thing that affects straight white racist men, but can be a product of internalized racism, and other things that make this not very black and white.
It's not, there are a ton of black, and Asian incels. While the community of incels and related groups are pretty racist, but they've done a job at wanting to Target minority men who have similar feelings.
You gotta be in a relationship to get cucked. These dudes ain't even so much as held a woman's hand.
The name of this group is so weird to me. "Involuntary celibate" doesn't make sense, because if you choose to be affiliated to such a group aren't you a voluntary celibate? What happens if an incel has sex? Is he kicked out of the little terrorist group? Is there a separate group of incels who had sex but still hate women? I have so many questions.
Also, these guys are dangerous and should be monitored very, very closely and banned from public places on the internet like 4Chan (good to see that Reddit already did that).
Also, these guys are dangerous and should be monitored very, very closely and banned from public places on the internet like 4Chan (good to see that Reddit already did that).
The article mentions any positivity relating to forming a relationship is met with hatred and the user is branded a traitor to incels.
So then they're not really 'incels', right? They're 'cels', because they're actively avoiding sex.
Incels seem to be more of the type of person that is not only a virgin at 40 but has never even had a kiss. You know the one or two people in school that were completely inept socially? The internet has brought them together.