What if you can't get your game on Gamepass? If for some reason you don't get picked up you game misses out on a sizeable audience that might not want to spend on gamse outside their subscription.
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BBC: Microsoft’s mega-deal worries small video game developers
- Thread starter Typhon
- Start date
What if you can't get your game on Gamepass? If for some reason you don't get picked up you game misses out on a sizeable audience that might not want to spend on gamse outside their subscription.
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Wait for a game to get on PS+???? Trust me, there was no waiting. You'd never get that game you were interested in (maybe a year or two later). There would be some surprises at times, to which you'd see many posts like "I just bought that last month!! Fuuuuuu".
What if MS says no thanks? What if MS doesn't want to pay them very much and they have to work harder to self-market the game and/or crowd fund? And if that doesn't work they have to limit the scope of their game and compromise what they want to make?
For indies there are a lot more problems to solve that people seem to take for granted. They even mentioned how big pubs passed on their idea, so in a hypothetical future where GP is dominating like Netflix was at one point, if they can't convince MS to take them in then their game will get overlooked by a huge chunk of the market it previously wouldn't have been.
I mean no one is stopping indies from releasing games outside GP.
In the end the consumer decides where and how content gets consumed.
Yeah but rn that company is Valve in the PC space, ever since they opened the floodgates. If we mainly played on GP, then that would pass over to MS
I don't think people would settle for less content and variety, so I'm optimistic GP would either have to offer space for lots and lots of devs, or it would never become as dominant as people fear.
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How many indie games do you think release in a year though? There are many million seller indie games, but about 100x or even 1000x more release every year.Don't think that's true at all. Just a random example from a early access game:
Valheim has now sold 7.9 million copies
1.1 million copies were shifted between April and Junewww.pcgamesn.com
That's the problem, though. Game Pass highlighted Boyfriend Dungeon, which you would have never even heard of if it wasn't for MS cutting a deal.
For every Boyfriend Dungeon, there are tons of indy games that don't get a deal though and you might continue to never even hear about those because Game Pass gives you some kind of gaming tunnel vision, where you might not pay much attention to games that don't release on that service.
There are also situations in the film industry where big streaming companies got backlash for not fairly compensating the creators of the films and shows. While a big payment is nice on paper, it sometimes isn't sufficient in compensating everyone who worked on the project. Some indies have dozens of people working on them and the budget can be well into the millions, so if say Epic or MS gives a team like $500k or even $1 million to have their game on their platform, that may not be enough for everyone to benefit from it. It's just a really complicated situation overall that speaks volumes on how gargantuan this industry is.
Valve doesn't curate the store, for better or worse anything can get there. GP will never be like that.
Plus indies (especially very small ones) are being very successful on Itch.io recently
I think it's fair and good to be skeptical about where all this is leading, but I generally lean towards what you're saying here.
I don't get this attitudud. People think "Microsoft just wants to be Netflix". They don't. Netflix is small potatos, plus it has tons of competition. Netflix wishes they were Microsoft. They want to be the Netflix of Gaming, but they also want to be able be the iPhone of gaming hardware. Wanting one service to be sucessful, doesn't mean that they don't want their biggest consumer product line to be successful as well. Microsoft doesn't care about overtaking Sony or Nintendo. They want to overtake Apple. They want to be the biggest company in the world.
This is why it sucks that platform stores are closed. Big stores can gate all indies no problem because they're the only way to distribute a game on console, it's supposed to be slightly more accessible on PC but we did hear indies complain about Steam IIRC. Big business wanting all for themselves doesn't help and Phil Spencer has hinted that he tries to make business decisions that are as player and content-creator friendly as possible. At the end of the day they need to server their own investors, but it'd seems that if they can also help content-creators grow along their own business they're intending to do that. With business it's typically a "pick the lesser evil" :/
Game Pass isn't simply a thing you can opt-into. You need to cut a deal with MS and if they don't want your game then you will never reach people that don't look at games outside of Game Pass.
The bigger Game Pass gets, the higher the chances that more people might not even consider games that aren't on the service.
Also if those third-party developers have a game with any type of recurring revenue, they will even get benefits from being in Gamepass as that way their games will become a pseudo free to play game in there.
100%
I'd love to hear more indies give their 2 cents about GP, industry consolidation, and how these things affect them.
I just think that dedicated hardware is small potatos for what they're trying to achieve. The console consumers won't grow large amounts in the future, but the gaming industry in general will.
Everyone needs/wants a phone, game consoles are not the same.
I mean it will get to the point were MS can supply Gamepass solely on 1st parties. And with GP likely being the dominant way to play on the platform going forwad, what does this mean for indies and third parties on Xbox? who knows, there's no precedent for it.
???
Xbox has a long history of highly successful indie games. XBLA proved that indie games could be commercially viable on (then) modern consoles.
Where do you get that from?
It is and it will. Every console generation has been bigger then the last in terms of console sales, and this gerneation is on track to be the biggest yet. Didn't the Switch just become the biggest selling console ever? Console sales are only going to grow in the coming years, and of course Microsoft want the XBOX to be to gaming consoles what the iPhone is to phones. They want their brand to be ubiquitous with gaming. They make money off of every game and every V-buck sold on XBOX. Yeah, it'll be good if you sub to Game Pass on your phone, but that doesn't help Microsoft get 30% of your V-bucks. The console business is still the most important pillar of the XBOX brand, and that's not going to change in the next few console generations.
This is where I am at too. I've given so many indies a shot that I wouldn't have previously. Also, money saved not having to buy AAA titles that are on Game Pass is spent on indies in most cases (or even games on PS and Switch haha.)
People make it seem like if you have Game Pass you can't buy games outside of it. I just don't buy that the majority that are subbed solely play games on the sub.
Xbox is basically the origin of console indie games, at least in that sub $30 space.
15 years ago when Xbox 360 was competing with PS3 1:1
Also I don't think you realize how many great indie games get released each year but only a handful get talked about and have great success.
Yes currently, but if people assume the market is changing, why should their policies be excluded from that
To get an idea of how bad things can get look at mobile gaming. A few years ago some devs tried to ship actual games on mobile, even Nintendo launched an actual Mario game there with a free-to-start model. However the free-to-play and gacha model became so dominant, people on mobile were so used to get thing for "free" that any other model got pushed out, which is in part why Nintendo bailed out. The only not-F2P games that ship on mobile are those endorsed by platform holders such as Apple Arcade, and there is very few of them left.
Things are not this bad on consoles obviously but Microsoft's race to the "Metaverse" is going to let some people on the side. Not everybody will have a seat on the Microsoft train towards "two billion players".
Things are not this bad on consoles obviously but Microsoft's race to the "Metaverse" is going to let some people on the side. Not everybody will have a seat on the Microsoft train towards "two billion players".
Indie games still do well enough on Xbox though. Devs wouldn't support it if there wasn't a market for it.
As for your second point. Is that any different from how the market works on other platforms though? How many games are released on Steam, Nintendo and Playstation every year? How many of them get talked about and have great successes?
Thank you for clarifying. I agree with you on that point. I'm sorry for misunderstanding your post.
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MS isn't going to cut a check to put every indie on Game Pass. So a lot of developers would just get frozen out in that scenario. This is assuming Game Pass can get to that level of importance. The larger the catalog grows, the more likely for any individual game to just get buried. That's already happening in the indie space with the sheer number of releases, but if everyone becomes dependent on less platforms, down to one huge platform, there's even less room to go around, and less opportunities to get approval. On top of that, MS will hit a point in the future where they'll be way less dependent on 3rd party games and indies to flesh out the service. This is the same thing that happened to Netflix, once it grew to a size where it made more sense to focus funding its own projects and license less. Even Sony did something similar in the PS4 days, where they leaned heavily on indies the first couple years until their 1st party studios started rolling out titles.
That said, it's a big what if and sort of a worst case scenario. There's a lot of players and moving parts that will determine how this all plays out and how competitive it will be. For the foreseeable future there's going to be plenty of platform choice.
Yes. And quite successful there too.
I think these fears are largely unfounded, and they're exactly the same talking points as before the Acti deal. The only new one is "what if AAA games take over the whole year" - and that's got nothing to do with Game Pass (nor acquisitions)! How many of the big, hyped games releasing this month or next month are day 1 Game Pass? Not Pokemon, not Dying Light, not Horizon, not Elden Ring.. I mean.. It's funny because of all the companies that you could be worried about this with, MS and Acti are two of the worst "holiday or bust" publishers, who only release in that period, for better or worse. But Sony has always avoided holiday, Nintendo often releases whenever they want, and I don't think that's killed indies on either platform. Don't get the concern.
But I think the point that Ms Short might be trying to get at is one that Mike Bithell (whose games like Thomas was Alone and many others have found a strong indie following and have often benefitted from Game Pass games) explained on his podcast with Alanah Pearce (and Troy Baker and Austin Wintory). One possible outcome of this consolidation is that Microsoft needs fewer indie games because of their now vast first party catalog. It's well known that MS has been EXTREMELY generous with their Game Pass deals - so much so that indie devs are funding multiple projects with the money from just one of these deals. But, if MS doesn't need those indies, that must change. This would be materially bad for developers like Short who may be actively looking for Game Pass deals.
At the same time, Bithell makes the point that this certainly isn't the first time this type of thing has happened. And in fact, it should always be expected to end. Sony at the launch of the PS4 needed indies, so it was a gold rush there. But when they didn't need it (no acquisitions nor Game Pass required), they stopped. Switch was a gold mine for indies for a while. And it's not like either of these are BAD platforms for indies, they're just not as lucrative. And that very well could happen with Game Pass, as well. But like... of course it would! Eventually, they couldn't be so generous with their investment. Just like eventually, Game Pass must raise prices. It just is what it is. Indie devs have always had it rough - that's what publishers are for lol. That hasn't changed.
And ultimately, yea, I agree. There's no sign that MS would walk away from their indie initiative so totally. They may cut less lucrative deals. The gold mine may end. But I expect MS to still want to be a good home for indie games, perhaps THE home for indie games. After all, Game Pass thrives/relies on variety, not on monoculture.
My point was about the indie devs being concerned about game pass getting out of hand and they won't be able to find success.
Indies always struggled to get to the spotlight it's not gamepass fault.
Another issue is that if people are bought into GamePass platform and MS' 20+ studios are working to produce bunch of titles plus back catalog and some 3rd party games... would people buy any separate indie games if they already have that much to play on one sub?
Now if Sony launches their service, you have 2 competing major services doing that. Indie games especially will likely suffer unless they are on one of these two services and even then how much would they get paid is a question.
Now if Sony launches their service, you have 2 competing major services doing that. Indie games especially will likely suffer unless they are on one of these two services and even then how much would they get paid is a question.
I've played more indie games than I wouldn't have touched due to gamepass tbh
Developers don't have to wonder about income from sales if it's a hit or not , and from the dev accounts on some games gamepass has been only good for them. There's alot of so far unfounded fears that get repeated every few years and so far I think the evidence for now points to the opposite for everyone other than people who don't have a game pass machine in it being nett positive
Donut county spiritfarer to name a few I wouldn't have bought but gamepass got me to enjoy
Developers don't have to wonder about income from sales if it's a hit or not , and from the dev accounts on some games gamepass has been only good for them. There's alot of so far unfounded fears that get repeated every few years and so far I think the evidence for now points to the opposite for everyone other than people who don't have a game pass machine in it being nett positive
Donut county spiritfarer to name a few I wouldn't have bought but gamepass got me to enjoy
I mean hasn't Game Pass had the exact opposite effect, putting more emphasis on freedom and creativity as opposed to what's going to sell the most copies?
Hard to imagine a scenario in which Xbox is giving the cold shoulder to creative and innovative indie la just because they aren't under the first party banner.
Hard to imagine a scenario in which Xbox is giving the cold shoulder to creative and innovative indie la just because they aren't under the first party banner.
I completely disagree. I think it's the big publishers such as EA and Ubi that has the most to lose in a subscription dominated world. Indies will always worry about other indies most.
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Why can't y'all just be reasonable and accept that it's OK for someone to have well founded fears about the future of their vocation due to a massive shift in how one of the worlds richest companies is changing the consumption pattern of players while consolidating the space.
This can be true at the very same time that this consolidation and subscription service might also be good things for you.
I won't pretend to know what the future holds, and we just launched on gamepass, but I respect Tanya's points,
This can be true at the very same time that this consolidation and subscription service might also be good things for you.
I won't pretend to know what the future holds, and we just launched on gamepass, but I respect Tanya's points,
AAA games will almost certainly take over the rest of the year even if Game Pass did not exist. Just look at how many AAA games are coming out in February, a time that would have been completely barren for AAA content in the past. AAA publishers already realize that most games will have a better chance to thrive if they are not overshadowed by even bigger AAA games in the holiday season.
I really doubt that Game Pass will ever turn away from Indie games. Even with so many studios, MS cannot publish games for every type of gamer consistently throughout the year (which is what they will need to do to keep retention high). I feel like the bigger concern is that only Indie games chosen by Game Pass/ Spartacus will succeed because people will only look at games within those services to try out indie games. I still do not think that is likely though. Games like Among Us and Valheim did great without support from Game Pass or anything similar, which leads me to believe that these concerns are overblown.
I also think services like Game Pass are probably good for the Indie community as a whole. I know that I buy more Indie games outside of Game Pass than I did before because Game Pass has convinced me that Indie games are at least as good as AAA games, when I probably would have ignored them before I got to play so many of them through Game Pass.
I really doubt that Game Pass will ever turn away from Indie games. Even with so many studios, MS cannot publish games for every type of gamer consistently throughout the year (which is what they will need to do to keep retention high). I feel like the bigger concern is that only Indie games chosen by Game Pass/ Spartacus will succeed because people will only look at games within those services to try out indie games. I still do not think that is likely though. Games like Among Us and Valheim did great without support from Game Pass or anything similar, which leads me to believe that these concerns are overblown.
I also think services like Game Pass are probably good for the Indie community as a whole. I know that I buy more Indie games outside of Game Pass than I did before because Game Pass has convinced me that Indie games are at least as good as AAA games, when I probably would have ignored them before I got to play so many of them through Game Pass.
It does not worry me.
MS is no where near achieving a monopoly.
Corps and companies that want to sell, will be bought.
It's been the opposite for me. I bought Chorus and Mario Golf on Day 1 because I had a ton of money saved and felt more comfortable supporting them out of the gate. In the past, I might hesitate on a game like Triangle Strategy, but I'm also scooping that Day 1 because my entertainment budget / bill is super low.
Industry consolidation is worrying in general in my opinion. It will happen, of course... I don't see Tencent, Embracer, MS, and Sony stopping any soon, and positive/negative results will be seen in the long run.
I'm getting tired of this discourse. NO ONE KNOWS WHAT WILL HAPPEN THE NEXT FIVE TO TEN YEARS.
MS is known to buy up smaller companies and strip them for parts. MS also coined the 'embrace, extend, and exterminate' philosophy. MS is also known to help smaller companies grow to their potential. MS has a very good product with Gamepass.
All this M&A / Gamepass / Whatever talk is just friggin Fantasy Football at this point.
MS is known to buy up smaller companies and strip them for parts. MS also coined the 'embrace, extend, and exterminate' philosophy. MS is also known to help smaller companies grow to their potential. MS has a very good product with Gamepass.
All this M&A / Gamepass / Whatever talk is just friggin Fantasy Football at this point.
Right, but in a pre-GP world, I just also don't hear about Boyfriend Dungeon along with all of those other games. That's my point about all the shovelware.
I'm not going to spend more than 10-15 minutes looking for something to play. If we're in a non-GP world, I never click on Boyfriend Dungeon period. The title is generic and, from experience, there are a billion games with cover/page art like it that are steaming garbage.
Ultimately the real concern is discoverability and perceived value. Game Pass isn't really related at all to the former; it's a curator in a sea of them, and people have finite time set aside to look for games. For the latter, I think the argument is more compelling, but I would say that my perceived value of a game like Boyfriend Dungeon before playing it was pretty low, if not zero. A lot of the games I've played in GP are in that same bucket; they're not splashy or interesting enough on the store for me to even wishlist them or dig into reviews, but if it's already in my sub library? Sure I'll install that.
Yeah and consolidated studios will have key employees that leave because they don't agree anymore and start up new projects and studios and the cycle continues.
influence: of course, they present their case for consumer to chose, dictates, however Is almost impossible, especially in entertainment business, there's just no way to dictate how people will spend their free times, even in a world where game pass is the only way to play game, if people don't think they have their money's worth, their will just spend their money and time on some other activity other than gaming.