Basic Income, Not Basic Jobs

Proteus · May 17, 2018

The Albatross said:
Do you think that your perspective on working in dead end retail is a common perspective? Like, do you think that the other people you were working with largely shared your opinion? If so, do you see the conflict that arises with UBI from that?

Of course it was shared. I see the conflict that you are trying to present but that's a problem for employers to solve. Livable wages and treatment may keep more people working retail instead of just opting to stay on UBI. Give people are reason to stick it out in a dead end job over UBI.

Also, retail jobs are drying up as is so UBI is a necessity either way.

Aeriscloud · May 17, 2018

Wonderbrah said:
Work doesn't suck. If it sucks for you, maybe find another profession you are actually interested in and enjoy doing? Maybe easier said than done but that's why you go to college, pick a major of your choosing and get a job in your chosen field after you graduate.

My God, you've figured it all out. Nobel Prize in Economics headed your way. You've really done it, congrats.

RDreamer · May 17, 2018

Wonderbrah said:
Work doesn't suck. If it sucks for you, maybe find another profession you are actually interested in and enjoy doing? Maybe easier said than done but that's why you go to college, pick a major of your choosing and get a job in your chosen field after you graduate.

Maybe.

Yeah, my man, perhaps this all is easier said than done. lol

saenima · May 17, 2018

Azzanadra said:
I can`t agree, their is dignity and purpose in work

Tell that to people working jobs they hate. Which is mostly everybody.

I would argue there's much more dignity in being able to enjoy your very limited time on this earth doing what you love than spending most of your waking hours slaving away for the benefit of others.

But maybe that's a crazy idea for some folks.

Hirok2099 · May 17, 2018

Azzanadra said:
I can`t agree, their is dignity and purpose in work. If you are physically and mentally able, you should work, contribute to your society and humanity.

you are assuming that those of us that want UBI want to stop working. That's not what we want we want a universal safety net so that those who made wrong decisions about their lives or have fallen on hard times for one reason or another can get back up again and are able to pursue their personal happiness. Basic jobs do alleviate some of that but it comes with long term issues such as a negative impact in small businesses and start ups.

Trago · May 17, 2018

I used to think that UBI was impractical, but the threat of automation makes the idea look like a no brainer.

PhoenixDark · May 17, 2018

Dennis8K said:
I really hate number 11.

And this attitude of "why do I even have to work" is the biggest enemy of universal basic income.

I am sorry, but some people do have to work for us to have a society but your bullshit attitude will make them much likely to recoil from the idea of basic universal income.

It just confirms peoples' suspicion that it is all about getting a free handout while being lazy.

UBI isn't happening anytime soon in the United States, regardless of how its proponents frame it so I wouldn't blame them. Does their attitude help? No, they often sound like lazy bums...but ultimately the idea is DOA given the ideological split in this country and hundreds if not thousands of years worth of philosophical/sociological/religious conditioning on the ideal of work.

I support UBI, it's the only logical solution to automation and the upcoming death of the middle class. At some point even republicans will realize UBI is required if you want to maintain capitalism longer...but how long will that take? It can't even pass in Switzerland so you know we're fucked in the short term. Ten years? Seems more likely our political system will stagnate as more faux populists arrive promising to MAGA and bring manufacturing jobs back. On the left and right.

Hirok2099 · May 17, 2018

Wonderbrah said:
Work doesn't suck. If it sucks for you, maybe find another profession you are actually interested in and enjoy doing? Maybe easier said than done but that's why you go to college, pick a major of your choosing and get a job in your chosen field after you graduate.

There are thousands of people who chose wrong and now they are burdened with a useless mayor and student debt. what are they supposed to do ?

Ether_Snake · May 17, 2018

Hirok2099 said:
you are assuming that those of us that want UBI want to stop working. That's not what we want we want a universal safety net so that those who made wrong decisions about their lives or have fallen on hard times for one reason or another can get back up again and are able to pursue their personal happiness. Basic jobs do alleviate some of that but it comes with long term issues such as a negative impact in small businesses and start ups.

Wrong, that's not UBI at all. UBI is everyone gets X income, period. There's no softening of it with "people who made wrong decisions" or "people who fell on hard times". If that's the arguments you want to use, don't say it's UBI, that's called welfare.

If you really want to focus on those who made wrong decisions or fell on hard time, you need a system in place that can figure who requires welfare and how much, so as to maximize the welfare they can receive over splitting it across everyone taking nothing into account about their situation. That's not UBI.

saenima · May 17, 2018

Wonderbrah said:
Maybe easier said than done but that's why you go to college, pick a major of your choosing and get a job in your chosen field after you graduate.

Sure buddy. Since college degrees take no time and money, i'll just grab one of those college degrees from the college degree tree. After that easy task, i can then enjoy life working retail anyway like most college degree holders in my country.

Some of you people need to get out of your parents house and take a look at the real world.

Trago · May 17, 2018

PhoenixDark said:
UBI isn't happening anytime soon in the United States, regardless of how its proponents frame it so I wouldn't blame them. Does their attitude help? No, they often sound like lazy bums...but ultimately the idea is DOA given the ideological split in this country and hundreds if not thousands of years worth of philosophical/sociological/religious conditioning on the ideal of work.

I support UBI, it's the only logical solution to automation and the upcoming death of the middle class. At some point even republicans will realize UBI is required if you want to maintain capitalism longer...but how long will that take? It can't even pass in Switzerland so you know we're fucked in the short term. Ten years? Seems more likely our political system will stagnate as more faux populists arrive promising to MAGA and bring manufacturing jobs back. On the left and right.

That's the scary part. Automation is becoming more ubiquitous, yet no one seems to agree that we should be putting a system in place to prevent shit from hitting the fan. In about ten to fifteen years, A LOT of jobs will be automated and put a lot of people out of work. At least rich dudes like Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg already acknowledge that UBI is the way to go.

Proteus · May 17, 2018

Ether_Snake said:
Wrong, that's not UBI at all. UBI is everyone gets X income, period. There's no softening of it with "people who made wrong decisions" or "people who fell on hard times". If that's the arguments you want to use, don't say it's UBI, that's called welfare.

.

The UBI Pilot Project in Ontario is not how you have described.

https://www.ontario.ca/page/ontario-basic-income-pilot

How participants were chosen
Participants are:

18 to 64 years old for the duration of the pilot.

living in one of the selected test regions for the past at least 12 months or longer (and still live there):

Hamilton, Brantford, Brant County

Thunder Bay, along with the Municipality of Oliver Paipoonge, Township of Shuniah, Municipality of Neebing, Township of Conmee, Township of O'Connor, Township of Gillies

Lindsay

living on a low income (under $34,000 per year if you're single or under $48,000 per year if a couple)

Payment amount
The payment will ensure a minimum level of income is provided to participants. Aligning with the advice of Hugh Segal, payments based on 75% of the Low Income Measure (LIM), plus other broadly available tax credits and benefits, would provide an income that will meet household costs and average health-related spending.

Following a tax credit model, the Ontario Basic Income Pilot will ensure that participants receive up to:

$16,989 per year for a single person, less 50% of any earned income

$24,027 per year for a couple, less 50% of any earned income

People with a disability will also receive up to $500 per month on top.

Working and going to school during the pilot
Participants can go to school to further their education or begin/continue to work while receiving the basic income. The basic income amount will decrease by $0.50 for every dollar an individual earns through work.
/QUOTE]

Chairman Yang · May 17, 2018

The Albatross said:
Universal health care and Universal primary education aren't universal, though. I think that's... pretty key. Is 'universal' just a fake word we tag onto something when we want to make it sound more legitimate or expansive than it is? Like, let's take an example of "Universal Health Care," like the National Health Service in the UK or something... As an American living in America, do I have access to the NHS? No? So... how... universal is it? No, it's not a universal health care system, it's a national health care system.

And yes, non-universal basic income would be difficult. Because basic income is difficult. Anybody who thinks that their pet economic theory is going to be easily implemented is deluding themselves and trying to delude others. And, yes, setting up a large, intrusive, complex government bureaucracy is part of the problem. Large, intrusive, complex government bureaucracies are the tools that liberal democratic countries have to implement economic theories like this, they can't be done by fiat or magic.

Fair enough; for the purposes of this thread, "universal" means universal within a country, not worldwide. Feel free to use the term national basic income if you'd prefer.

I think some systems are more difficult to set up than others. Straight up cash transfers for everyone would mean bureaucracy. Targeted cash transfers for certain people with elaborate systems to catch fraudsters would mean even more bureaucracy. It's a difference of degree.

Ether_Snake · May 17, 2018

Proteus said:
The UBI Pilot Project in Ontario is not how you have described.

https://www.ontario.ca/page/ontario-basic-income-pilot

So? That's not UBI. UBI has U in it, for UNIVERSAL.

The Albatross · May 17, 2018

Proteus said:
Of course it was shared. I see the conflict that you are trying to present but that's a problem for employers to solve. Livable wages and treatment may keep more people working retail instead of just opting to stay on UBI. Give people are reason to stick it out in a dead end job over UBI.

Also, retail jobs are drying up as is so UBI is a necessity either way.

The conflict that exists is that there's a market interest in bottom-tier merchandise. That is to say, the disposable crap that Macy's, Old Navy, Gap, Amazon, WalMart, Target, and a thousand other bargain-priced retails stores sell. It would be pleasant if there wasn't a market interest in it, but it's clear that consumers want $5 shirts from Target and $20 jeans from Macys or Old Navy.

You (and others -- me included, my dead end retail-like job was in food services/hospitality) had that dead-end retail job that you hated because you (and others -- me included here) are the consumers who also want a $5 t-shirt at Target or Old Navy. Now, I'm not saying basic income is impossible, it isn't, but eliminating the dead end job that you had because of your consumer tendencies doesn't eliminate just your job it eliminates the thing that tens of millions of people want: cheap throwaway shit. Now, maybe cheap throwaway shit should be eliminated, but we've just expanded the scope of basic income to not just getting you out of the job that you hated, but taking away the thing that you probably don't hate (or at least, fewer people hate), cheap shit from Target.

And then, of course, we have to question the theory that you posed. If Basic income is allowing you to pursue the office job that pays a little more money instead of working in retail that you hated, wouldn't your other coworkers in retail who also hate their jobs, also be going for those office jobs? If there's more employer demand for those office jobs, wouldn't they then become harder to get, or wouldn't the quality of life that the office job has then come down to the level of retail? So, would you go from hating the dead end retail job that pays shit (an employer problem as you put it), to being the dead end office job that pays shit?

In this case basic income isn't liberating you from the retail job that you hate. It's liberating you from the retail shit that you probably like, and replacing it with the office job that you'd probably also hate.

I'm not against basic income either, but I am against the idea that basic income would be easily implemented and would just exorcise us from the things that we hate so we could focus on the things that we like. Given human history and its tendency towards a supply and demand economic framework, I think the reach of basic income would be a lot larger than simply lifting you up from your retail hell (which, btw, are you still working in retail today?)

Hirok2099 · May 17, 2018

Ether_Snake said:
Wrong, that's not UBI at all. UBI is everyone gets X income, period. There's no softening of it with "people who made wrong decisions" or "people who fell on hard times". If that's the arguments you want to use, don't say it's UBI, that's called welfare.

If you really want to focus on those who made wrong decisions or fell on hard time, you need a system in place that can figure who requires welfare and how much, so as to maximize the welfare they can receive over splitting it across everyone taking nothing into account about their situation. That's not UBI.

No because then someone has to decide how someone fell on hard time and how specifically do deal with it. It requires judging from your peers and bureaucrats which also requires extra spending just to set up offices and systems and such.
You're right basic income means money everyone gets regardless of if you can work or not or what are the reason's you cannot work so if the time comes when you fall on hard times you do not have to explain anything to anyone or fill out any forms or wait time to start receiving the aid. You will simply have enough money to have a roof on your head and food on your plate always and regardless of your situation.

malingenie · May 17, 2018

There's a lot of value-adding things that could become 'jobs' or tasks that frequently are not. I think social media or internet content moderating, categorizing, meta-analyzing are examples of this. I think people could find purpose within these tasks that could be combined with a UBI, definitely preferable to tasks that add no value (like cold-calling or delivering junk mail to my door).

tino · May 17, 2018

The math for Universal Basic Income doesn't work unless the country is a resource exporting country. Noted both Canada and the Scandinavian countries are resource exporting countries.

Deleted member 14002 · May 17, 2018

Great list.

TBH I think UBI should also be bundled with some government subsidised courses or training programs.

If Starbucks can offer free college to its employees there should be free (accessible) educational opportunities offered to all people.

Moosichu · May 17, 2018

tino said:
The math for Universal Basic Income doesn't work unless the country is a resource exporting country. Noted both Canada and the Scandinavian countries are resource exporting countries.

That's not true. You're assuming UBI will result in everyone not working.

If it's paired with appropriate reforms in social welfare and education, it could lead to an innovation-driven economy, where individuals can fill important roles in their communities without having to worry about pay, and people can take risks with passion projects and ideas that they would otherwise be unable to.

But it needs to be paired with appropriate reforms which should be happening ASAP, so that people can be educated with skills that will thrive in such an economy,

Kill3r7 · May 17, 2018

Dennis8K said:
I really hate number 11.

And this attitude of "why do I even have to work" is the biggest enemy of universal basic income.

I am sorry, but some people do have to work for us to have a society but your bullshit attitude will make them much likely to recoil from the idea of basic universal income.

It just confirms peoples' suspicion that it is all about getting a free handout while being lazy.

.

Azzanadra · May 17, 2018

Hirok2099 said:
you are assuming that those of us that want UBI want to stop working. That's not what we want we want a universal safety net so that those who made wrong decisions about their lives or have fallen on hard times for one reason or another can get back up again and are able to pursue their personal happiness. Basic jobs do alleviate some of that but it comes with long term issues such as a negative impact in small businesses and start ups.

Even a business can't afford to properly compensate its employees, it doesn't deserve to exist. There's a reason people like Musk and Zuck are the proponents of UBI, its just a capitalist dystopian nightmare that people would actually rather have a shitty life without having to work with UBI than having a decent life and having to work. Are people really so lazy or adverse to work that they would willingly create a plutocratic society just so they don't have do their 40 hours? Jesus. You said you wouldn't stop working, but many would. And with basic jobs, the employer being the government promises things like worker's rights, good work/life balance, pension, comfort etc. I'd rather people have some sort of job and contribute to society than only contribute to the economy.

There's already welfare for those who made "bad decisions", and having a job can mentally help those who have fallen on hard times. It gives a sense of purpose as I've said, living off UBI alone just sounds depressing and antithetical to the human experience.

Also people fail to consider what would be scarified on the alter of UBI to actually bring it, in Canada I could imagine giving up free healthcare and generous students grants for a measly 20k/year.

Ether_Snake · May 17, 2018

Hirok2099 said:
No because then someone has to decide how someone fell on hard time and how specifically do deal with it. It requires judging from your peers and bureaucrats which also requires extra spending just to set up offices and systems and such.
You're right basic income means money everyone gets regardless of if you can work or not or what are the reason's you cannot work so if the time comes when you fall on hard times you do not have to explain anything to anyone or fill out any forms or wait time to start receiving the aid. You will simply have enough money to have a roof on your head and food on your plate always and regardless of your situation.

So all of a sudden « bureaucracy » is an issue for people on the left, how convenient. It's better to maximize the amount of money or services people who need them get than just giving everyone the same thing.

tino · May 17, 2018

Moosichu said:
That's not true. You're assuming UBI will result in everyone not working.

If it's paired with appropriate reforms in social welfare and education, it could lead to an innovation-driven economy, where individuals can fill important roles in their communities without having to worry about pay, and people can take risks with passion projects and ideas that they would otherwise be unable to.

But it needs to be paired with appropriate reforms which should be happening ASAP, so that people can be educated with skills that will thrive in such an economy,

What the hell is "appropriate reforms"? That's a bigger piece of pie on the sky than UBI. Who the hell decide what is appropriate reform? The Chicago school of Milton Friedman economists?

-COOLIO- · May 17, 2018

Doc Kelso said:
Preventing someone from working? Maybe. But I derive no sense of purpose from my job and I would much rather have the time, energy, and resources to follow my creative pursuits, which in turn would provide me with a means to support myself without basic income.

yup.

Deleted member 36054 · May 17, 2018

sersteven said:
We just had a thread around the beginning of the week where a guy admitted he was on welfare, healthy and just didn't want to work. People eviscerated him for it.

While I personally agree that the system we strive towards should be UBI or some form of it, UBJ seems like something to make the pill easier to swallow, especially when you're going to need bipartisan support to get this through.

It's going to take either generations or a literal economic collapse directly affecting people (and I mean tens of millions of people), that welfare and systems like it aren't just lazy thieving leeching wasters. We've been embedded with hundreds of years of worker bee mentality and propaganda through every facet of our lives. It's gonna be a hard switch to flip.

Exactly, if you don't think a UBI will perpetuate this than I don't know what to say...

Foxbat · May 17, 2018

sersteven said:
That mentality is so pessimistic though. No other creature on the planet needs to "work to live". I just think it reduces us in such a low-level way.

Your "laziest and most unproductive generation" to me could be a new renaissance of the greatest art, science, technological and philosophical works ever to be created. If you were to free up an entire generation or generations of people to live and do what they desire, imagine all the people who could pursue passions, create a family without worrying about putting food in their mouths, work passionately on something they want to do instead of taking a job to make ends meet.

It's so reductive to have this concept that work makes us hard working. People have lived in non-consumerist driven capitalist systems before. Society didn't fall to pieces then. Just because media has ingrained in you the stereotype of the lazy NEET doesn't mean that's what life has to be.

The dude in the same thread literally explained that he did use his time to draw/work on art/projects. He said he was able to do what he was passionate about. But because he dared to admit he spent most of his spending money on weed and video games (the horror), people ate him up.

But even then, what does it even matter if he does what he wants to do to enjoy life? If the system were implemented and worked (and it could), there would be people like him, and that's his own damn business what he wants to do with his life.

My dear child... You have so much to learn in life.

_Karooo · May 17, 2018

Basic income will work in countries with a small to medium population. I really doubt you can do something like that in India, China or even the US (say, 30 years from now).

Countries like Japan and Russia that have a stagnant economy and decent population could become superpowers with the advent of automation. We really don't know what's going to happen in the future.

UBI is the way to go though.

Antrax · May 17, 2018

It'll be necessary once automation ramps up and we have a country of 400 million people with less than 300 million jobs. No point in a jobs guarantee to do unnecessary work.

kittens · May 17, 2018

As someone who's always been poor and has watched countless friends and neighbors struggle in desperation under the increasingly harsh exploitation of capitalism, liberal emphasis on "new jobs" has always fell totally flat for me. Fuck your jobs, help us live.

sleepInsom · May 17, 2018

I don't think this is viable because we need people working the shitty jobs nobody wants to do. It's great that people talk about being able to pursue things that they're passionate about, but who's passionate about being a janitor, garbage collector, being a contractor in below freezing or sweltering hot temperatures, working customer service, retail, etc. Will there be enough teachers? Will there be enough people to maintain our infrastructure? Who's gonna volunteer to be a NOC technician during the third shift?

We definitely need safety nets for people, but we also need society to be productive and it seems the only way to make people be productive is to provide incentives.

Trago · May 17, 2018

sleepInsom said:
I don't think this is viable because we need people working the shitty jobs nobody wants to do. It's great that people talk about being able to pursue things that they're passionate about, but who's passionate about being a janitor, garbage collector, being a contractor in below freezing or sweltering hot temperatures, working customer service, retail, etc. Will there be enough teachers? Will there be enough people to maintain our infrastructure? Who's gonna volunteer to be a NOC technician during the third shift?

We definitely need safety nets for people, but we also need society to be productive and it seems the only way to make people be productive is to provide incentives.

How would you address automation though?

RSena7 · May 17, 2018

I know this isn't a point directly related to the article, but doesn't the military already act as UBJ for many impoverished communities in the United States.

NCR Ranger · May 17, 2018

Antrax Suicide said:
It'll be necessary once automation ramps up and we have a country of 400 million people with less than 300 million jobs. No point in a jobs guarantee to do unnecessary work.

That is pretty much how I see it as well. Automation will force people hands because there just won't be enough jobs around to support the you have to work to live mentality.

Deleted member 2226 · May 17, 2018

entremet said:
I have no problem with UBI, but like the other OP, he wasn't really doing anything productive.

You would think with that free time that you could volunteer, work on art projects (his hobby), and so on, but we just vegging. And at the prime of his life. I don't think what human spirit wants. Kids don't dream of that kind of life. They want to make a contribution to this world in some way.

I'm fine with removing income from societal contribution, but I don't know how that will work for everyone.

Yeah. I mean that's where the Star Trek future seems the most far-fetched—not in that we solve racism or can teleport people in the blink of an eye, but that without needing to work people still motivate themselves to improve rather than vegging out and masturbating in a holodeck all day.

I do think basic jobs are a really dumb and inefficient idea that feels like some dystopian exaggeration of the worst parts of socialist countries, and a UBI makes more sense. However I think the people arguing that we're past the point where you should have to work to live are crazy. The economy is not structured that way and won't be any time soon.

sleepInsom · May 17, 2018

Trago said:
How would you address automation though?

I don't know. I don't have all the answers. But what I know is that automation at the level you're referring to isn't here yet and we don't know when that will happen. But what I do know is that we need people to work shitty jobs we take for granted that makes it possible to enjoy life in 2018. I just don't see how things like infrastructure, food production, service-based industries are going to work with people bugging out because they don't have to work those jobs anymore since they're often not fun, or at least not as fun as pursuing any number of hobbies and sleeping in whenever you want. Are robots going to make my cocktails and cook my food at restaurants? Is AI going to keep sewers maintained? Is automation going to make sure traffic lights are functioning?

Fou-Lu · May 17, 2018

RSena7 said:
I know this isn't a point directly related to the article, but doesn't the military already act as UBJ for many impoverished communities in the United States.

And you don't see a problem with that?

Trago · May 17, 2018

sleepInsom said:
I don't know. I don't have all the answers. But what I know is that automation at the level you're referring to isn't here yet and we don't know when that will happen. But what I do know is that we need people to work shitty jobs we take for granted that makes it possible to enjoy life in 2018. I just don't see how things like infrastructure, food production, service-based industries are going to work with people bugging out because they don't have to work those jobs anymore since they're often not fun, or at least not as fun as pursuing any number of hobbies and sleeping in whenever you want. Are robots going to make my cocktails and cook my food at restaurants? Is AI going to keep sewers maintained? Is automation going to make sure traffic lights are functioning?

The point is that we will get to that point. And we need a system in place to counter it.

tino · May 17, 2018

Trago said:
How would you address automation though?

You address automation by mandating better labor schedule such as 3 day weekend, 3.5 day weekend, more national holiday, shorter work hour etc, not UBI.

House_Of_Lightning · May 17, 2018

Chairman Yang said:
What do you think?

They can both exist in tandem, but like "minimum wage" has been an engine to maintain people just above poverty level, I don't like the idea of extending that concept to the concept of the bare necessities of life.

It's a difficult situation, many people need a stipend but the moment the state dictates a dollar number or percentage and maintains that number steadfast for 15 years and we're in the same situation as minimum wage is now, I'd like to see some consideration for that as well.

Few other thoughts:

> 10. Basic income puts everyone on the same side; basic jobs preserve the poor-vs-the-rest-of-us dichotomy

They mention everyone receiving this stipend, but at first glance I didn't see a specific dollar amount. For those of us that pay more taxes than what the stipend is, why not just have it as a tax break that is left in my monthly paycheck instead? I imagine it would be easier to sell for the white collar segment/small business segment as a "significant tax break" than seeing the taxes taken out and then getting a check in the mail at some point in the future.

> 11. Work Sucks

Yup, but unless our entire social relationship with commodities and exchange changes then "someone is going to have to do it".

sleepInsom · May 17, 2018

Trago said:
The point is that we will get to that point. And we need a system in place to counter it.

That's not a certainty. And if or when society changes to take account of that, there may likely be a better alternative to UBI. What you're also not considering is that there will be necessary jobs that automation can't replace. We will need people to do jobs that aren't fun, even with automation. What incentives will there be to guarantee those jobs are filled with UBI? Who's going to be passionate enough to volunteer to wake up at 3 AM to repair a machine, and what incentives will there be to make sure they do the job properly?

Страна Мечты · May 17, 2018

1. Basic jobs help the disabled by making them consider themselves a meaningful asset to society while also making new connections with other people
2. Basic jobs could replace and support caretakers
3. Don't take kids if your income doesn't support it
4. Only if you don't unionize and fight for worker's rights
5. ^
6. It is not the state's responsibility to protect employees from their incompetence, or just reassign them if you live in a communist country
7. It is not the state's responsibility to provide employers with ways to prevent their works from escaping
8. Tax flight killed Venezuela, and it's already killing the US
9. Like that kid that made a thread about being bored while the state provides him with free weed and videogames?!
10. UBI users will be seen as entitled parasites by taxpayers
11. There is no such thing as free lunch
12. (bonus) How will you prevent economic immigration when word gets around that your country has free shit and the only thing they need to have is a pulse?

RSena7 · May 17, 2018

Fou-Lu said:
And you don't see a problem with that?

I would say yes and no. I say yes because in a lot of ways it proliferates and justifies American militarism. On the other hand it does provide a job where people are able to learn advanced skills and discipline.

I do find it ironic because Republicans tend to be eager to spend money on the military, but they wouldn't in a million years fund or vote for an idea or bill that overtly advocated for universal basic jobs.

KingOfDyslexics · May 17, 2018

Would be nice if there was an adult school you would go to to continue learning and contributing to society that way and than get the basic income.

Foffy · May 17, 2018

Nijhazer said:
I agree with Joe Biden's perspective that preventing someone from working takes away their sense of purpose. I can't support any basic income proposal that doesn't account for this somehow, as it's a fundamental problem that such proposals would introduce.

Why are we stupid enough to define worth more in doing and less so in being?

This is the whole problem: we've propagandized an idea very successfully that one's worth is always involving a ticking down state of affairs that only ever becomes more muddled, more undefined in shape and specificity as time goes on. I mean, try and wrap your head around the nonsense of what a job really is: it's a subset of work that we say is the "real" work, the work that really counts, and yet I'm sure for a great deal of people in America, jobs are last space on earth where meaning is found outside of money and appeasing survival value impositions.

Is this really worth, really purpose? Perhaps to lost people.

sleepInsom · May 17, 2018

Foffy said:
Why are we stupid enough to define worth more in doing and less so in being?

Because resources aren't infinite, and the only way to sustain our increasing worldwide population is to reward people for doing jobs they wouldn't otherwise do. Great. You're an artist. But I need a hip transplant otherwise I'm going to live with constant pain. I'm going to place more value on the person who can help me.

Pokiehl · May 17, 2018

I lean toward UBI, but we aren't at the point where we need this. For either plan to work a functioning and growing economy will be necessary. A GJP will only serve as a drain on the economy. A UBI would also be a drain on the economy, unless certain conditions are met; namely a substitute for labor. So basically I think UBI will only work if automation lives up to it's promises by replacing all labor and not simply complementing labor. Right now we don't know if that will happen for sure, and anyone who says they know the answer to that question is just fooling themselves.

Foffy · May 17, 2018

sleepInsom said:
Because resources aren't infinite, and the only way to sustain our increasing worldwide population, is to reward people for doing jobs they wouldn't otherwise do.

But we get into very dangerous territory when we define worth in our own manufactured, hypernormalized concepts.

I mean, let's be real here: we can say this conservative candidate calling to euthanize people in welfare is perhaps sociopathic, but his views and values directly overlap exactly into what I've tried to highlight is the problem. You'd only want to see the "lazy" die off "if they have no worth" when you overemphasize a series of symbols and symbolisms. If anything, you could say he takes the whole "work is worth" most seriously. If we're really going to run with this line of thought, this man takes the idea so seriously this would seem to be an "ideal" if we're defining the terms in this direction. Is this not a problem when we continue to define worth in such erroneous terms? Why is value exclusively economic value, which is something intrinsically gamed at this period we're living in?

Further, is it really fair to say we "reward" people in a system based on coercion? That the only out, the only escape hatch, is in the employer's hands? To say people are rewarded is a bullshit term to use, seeing as for a over a third of the population, the terms they work on are ultimatums. I don't think being rewarded survival value needs -- and somehow fucking failing those due to cost of living + decoupled wages -- is a "reward". That would be, perhaps, one of the worst uses of that word in modern history.

Kirblar · May 17, 2018

Страна Мечты said:
1. Basic jobs help the disabled by making them consider themselves a meaningful asset to society while also making new connections with other people
2. Basic jobs could replace and support caretakers
3. Don't take kids if your income doesn't support it
4. Only if you don't unionize and fight for worker's rights
5. ^
6. It is not the state's responsibility to protect employees from their incompetence, or just reassign them if you live in a communist country
7. It is not the state's responsibility to provide employers with ways to prevent their works from escaping
8. Tax flight killed Venezuela, and it's already killing the US
9. Like that kid that made a thread about being bored while the state provides him with free weed and videogames?!
10. UBI users will be seen as entitled parasites by taxpayers
11. There is no such thing as free lunch
12. (bonus) How will you prevent economic immigration when word gets around that your country has free shit and the only thing they need to have is a pulse?

I was going to respond seriously to this, then I got to #8 and realized the futility of it.

Nintendo Switch · May 17, 2018

There are people that spend every penny they get their hands on on drugs. A basic income would just give them money for more drugs.

Why not housing assistance and food, that's what everyone needs, a place a stay and things to eat.

Basic Income, Not Basic Jobs

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