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jman2050

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
5,815
But shouldn't he be in a different timeline/reality? Some of them surely ended up mostly the same as the main timeline, but the 2014 one and the 2012 avengers realities got changed, and based on the rules of the movie, he would be in a new timeline. Unless I suppose, he came back to see them off?

It'll probably get cleared up within the next week or two, but honestly it's the only small issue I actually had with their time travel logic.

Well if we take the whole "quantum physics" angle of the time travel in this movie into account, one possibility is that timelines are subject to a form of entanglement wherein changes in any point in time can result in either a complete divergence from the origin timeline or an eventual reintegration into the origin, but you can't know which it is until the timeline plays itself out. If we accept the core premise in this movie that the events before the actual time travel takes place are immutable and a necessary cause for anything that happens during these trips then we can presume that divergences only occur if the events of the changed timeline and the events of the original timeline are contradictory. Thus, Loki escaping with the Tesserect would be an entirely new branch while Cap settling down with Peggy while completely divorcing himself from any history with the principle actors of the time travel would become a successful reintegration.

Naturally all this is just speculation using a rudimentary layman's interpretation of quantum mechanics but it's an example of something plausible enough to work in a fictional story.
 

Illusion

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,407
But shouldn't he be in a different timeline/reality? Some of them surely ended up mostly the same as the main timeline, but the 2014 one and the 2012 avengers realities got changed, and based on the rules of the movie, he would be in a new timeline. Unless I suppose, he came back to see them off?

It'll probably get cleared up within the next week or two, but honestly it's the only small issue I actually had with their time travel logic.
The only 2 major instances of the timeline splitting were:

1. Loki and Space Stone & The Ancient One believing choosing Strange might had been a mistake.
2. A 2014 reality where Thanos & Army, Gamora, and Nebula were never there to play off the events before Guardians of the Galaxy 1.

Those realities are now their own branch or alternate reality because they created a new one. The Ancient One's explanation was that the stones couldn't be removed because they are the fabric of reality and would destroy the balance of time and space destroying all future timelines from that point onward. So instances 1 and 2 are now just different timelines where events will now happen differently but exist in their own stream of time. So think Rick and Morty with different realities/dimensions and it should make sense.

So Cap traveling to anywhere in the past doesn't change the future and always maintains a reality of him existing in every possible future. If he changes the events (say kill Tony Stark for no good reason), there will always be a version of him who didn't do that and to sit on the bench to give Falcon his shield in our current reality. While there is now a new reality where he did kill Tony, but that doesn't affect time, because time simply accounts for all actions to be possible in different realities.
 

Sargerus

▲ Legend ▲
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
20,878

elLOaSTy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,852
Nice and convenient that Peter, Ned, Betty, Flash, and MJ all got snapped

Yesterday I was talking to my gf about how I really want consequences and I felt that the snap should be corrected but I hope the time wasn't reversed.

Then I said but we know that's not likely otherwise peter and all his classmates would have to have been snapped or else they would have outgrown him 🤣
 

HotHamBoy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
16,423
I think this movie will be one that a lot of people like more on a second viewing, whether you already love it now or have mixed feelings.

A lot of that comes down to the incredible hype, the expectations and the hopes people had for the direction.

In many ways the story subverts expectations at every oppprtunity, yet it also ultimately plays into a lot of them as well.

I think on second viewing people won't be caught up in their expectations and anticipations and they can better enjoy the movie for what it is.
 

Cappa

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,146
What a ride!

I'm confused about where this leaves Spider-Man: Far From Home though. Was it confirmed to be a high school field trip cause that wouldn't make sense given the new timeline right?
Why wouldn't it make sense? At the end of end game he's in high school. People who got dusted didn't age, everyone else did
 

Blue Ninja

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,782
Belgium
Also, the time travel stuff again just kind of dilutes a lot of the emotional moments.

So, Natalie is gone. Ok...why not just use Pym Particles and the Quantum Tunnel to go grab Nat a few years after the Snap? Pretty sure if you told her she could be reunited with everyone again a few years in the future she would jump at the opportunity.
That's "why didn't they fly the eagles to Mordor"-reasoning. Bringing another Nat would have severe repercussions for that particular timeline, likely dooming it. Exactly what the Avengers didn't want to do.
 

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,994
I think this movie will be one that a lot of people like more on a second viewing, whether you already love it now or have mixed feelings.

A lot of that comes down to the incresible hype, the expectations and the hopes people had for the direction.

In many ways the story subverts expectations at every oppprtunity, yet it also ultimately plays into a lot of them as well.

I think on second viewing people won't be caught up in their expectations and anticipations and they can better enjoy the movie for what it is.

I had spoiled myself on the plot before I saw the movie-and even in the climax my heart was about to bust out of my chest I was so stressed out. It was an emotionally exhausting movie for sure.
 

Soul Skater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,201
I'm surprised at how little I care about whatever plotholes there were

Really I could go over the time travel and stuff but like. I was engaged and never bored and it makes sense fine if you just accept the logic.. so whatever
 
Oct 31, 2017
5,632
I really enjoyed this movie. First impression is the third act of this > third act of Infinity War. It is slow to start, but I think that's what this movie needed.

Really it's a great send off and finishing the cycle for these first 10 years. For example, I thought Logan was fantastic, but not really a CBM. It was a great way to send off Wolverine in that universe. Endgame wraps up the arc for Tony Stark (sacrificed himself on the snap), Steve Rogers (didn't travel back and grew old), Natasha Romanoff (sacrificed herself for the soul stone), Clint Barton (go home and be a family man), and Thor (GoTG). The only one still out there is Hulk.

People who really died (i.e. Vision and Gamora) were still not there at the end of the film.

That being said, I don't see the point of a Black Widow movie. I am not sure I'll watch it in the theaters. I already know she's dead. Marvel/Disney have a connundrum as Sony can pull Parker out at anytime, even though it looked like they want him front and center. Captain Marvel is OP, at least Superman has kryptonite, what's her weakness? Hulk is still underpowered. I loved that they got my homegirl Scarlett Witch right. "I don't even know who you are", "you will" and proceeds to start ripping buddy apart.

I'll have more to say later, it's late and I need to sleep. I need to watch this movie a few more times to fully digest it.
 

Lunatic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,834
Imagine being brought back from being dusted 40,000 feet in the air because the plane your pilot got dusted in crashed 5 years ago.
 

Serene

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
52,554
I mean they don't have to bring Gamora back. 2014 Gamora is now in the current timeline somewhere.

There's no reason to think that when everyone else from that timeline got snapped. Also she has no reason to have left at the end if she was still around considering Nebula is her only real attachment in this future.
 

sbkodama

Member
Oct 28, 2017
203
Why everyone talk about multiple timelines because of time travel ? Was it explicitly said in the movie ? Or is it because of supposed plot holes ?
I remember the ancient one talking about a breach because of stone missing but don't remember her talking about time travel.
 

Chasing

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
10,756
Stinger or no stinger everyone should stay to watch the credits tribute to the 6 OG avengers and their actors.
 

Eulala

Member
Aug 8, 2018
710
So of the black order

Cull got stomped
ebony maw got snapped
corvus got killed by Okoye
Did anyone see what happened to Proxima?
Proxima is seen in the background kneeling and holding a dead Corvus. She's the last to be dusted before Thanos who's in the foreground. Kinda mirrors Scarlet Witch dusting with a dead Vision actually.
 

MadLaughter

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
13,101
One thing that blows my mind is that time travel tech still exists at the end of this movie. I assumed that whatever shenanigans they had to get up to would end with nobody being able to time travel any more.
 

DeltaRed

Member
Apr 27, 2018
5,746
I'm of the opinion that since every fucking leader of SHIELD lies, Peggy lied her ass off.
It is really difficult to imagine that Sharon never once met or saw a picture of her Uncle, and that SHIELD nor Hydra would do any kind of checks on Peggy's husband. Zola's algorithm would probably identify him. It doesn't add up that Steve was the husband all along. And I know that she has Alzheimer's but there is nothing to suggest in that hospital scene she has been with him all this time.
 

Cappa

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,146
The movie wasn't perfect but its probably the quickest 3 hour movie I've ever seen and that I think can only speak positively about the film
 

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,994
I really enjoyed this movie. First impression is the third act of this > third act of Infinity War. It is slow to start, but I think that's what this movie needed.

Really it's a great send off and finishing the cycle for these first 10 years. For example, I thought Logan was fantastic, but not really a CBM. It was a great way to send off Wolverine in that universe. Endgame wraps up the arc for Tony Stark (sacrificed himself on the snap), Steve Rogers (didn't travel back and grew old), Natasha Romanoff (sacrificed herself for the soul stone), Clint Barton (go home and be a family man), and Thor (GoTG). The only one still out there is Hulk.

People who really died (i.e. Vision and Gamora) were still not there at the end of the film.

That being said, I don't see the point of a Black Widow movie. I am not sure I'll watch it in the theaters. I already know she's dead. Marvel/Disney have a connundrum as Sony can pull Parker out at anytime, even though it looked like they want him front and center. Captain Marvel is OP, at least Superman has kryptonite, what's her weakness? Hulk is still underpowered. I loved that they got my homegirl Scarlett Witch right. "I don't even know who you are", "you will" and proceeds to start ripping buddy apart.

I'll have more to say later, it's late and I need to sleep. I need to watch this movie a few more times to fully digest it.

Carols weakness is that she's busy.
 

MadLaughter

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
13,101
It is really difficult to imagine that Sharon never once met or saw a picture of her Uncle, and that SHIELD nor Hydra would do any kind of checks on Peggy's husband. Zola's algorithm would probably identify him. It doesn't add up that Steve was the husband all along.

Steve probably put on a baseball cap and became fuckin invisible
 

LossAversion

The Merchant of ERA
Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,722
Why wouldn't it make sense? At the end of end game he's in high school. People who got dusted didn't age, everyone else did
Yeah, I just didn't expect all of his friends to get dusted too. The odds of that seemed unlikely but I guess it had to be done to make sense of Far From Home.
 

jman2050

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
5,815
That's "why didn't they fly the eagles to Mordor"-reasoning. Bringing another Nat would have severe repercussions for that particular timeline, likely dooming it. Exactly what the Avengers didn't want to do.

There's also the fact that the Natalie from another timeline would never agree to abandoning her friends to her fate anyway. Knowing her character from all the movies to this point, she would be content with the fact that her sacrifice succeeded in saving everyone and that she'd have the opportunity to do the same in her own timeline.
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,624
Why everyone talk about multiple timelines because of time travel ? Was it explicitly said in the movie ? Or is it because of supposed plot holes ?
I remember the ancient one talking about a breach because of stone missing but don't remember her talking about time travel.
There have to be multiple timelines going on somehow when one version of Thanos dies young before the snap and another version dies at his farm.
 

Scrooge McDuck

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,039
There's no reason to think that when everyone else from that timeline got snapped. Also she has no reason to have left at the end if she was still around considering Nebula is her only real attachment in this future.
That Nebula isn't exactly her Nebula, though, and this Gamora is the loner Gamora who hasn't yet learned the strength of friendship and family. Maybe if Quill made a better first impression...
 

Shroki

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,911
It is really difficult to imagine that Sharon never once met or saw a picture of her Uncle, and that SHIELD nor Hydra would do any kind of checks on Peggy's husband. Zola's algorithm would probably identify him. It doesn't add up that Steve was the husband all along.

By the time Zola's algorithim exists and is operational, Steve Rogers would be in his 80s. Presumably with a fully forged identity or something, since Peggy IS the co-founder of SHIELD.

Even Sharon would have only met an aged, slim version of him. Like, if what you saw was what we saw at the end, would you ever be like "holy shit that's Captain America"! Nah, it'd be like looking at a picture of a grandpa when they were 20 or something. You see a resemblance, but they're not identical, and you'd never snap to "that's the same person because time travel".

It's tricky and a bit wonky but it works enough.
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
Cross posting my impressions from the non spoiler thread.

Just got back. Really enjoyed it. It's not as good as Infinity War, but it's still great, and fitting given it's not just a sequel but in a way a conclusion to the entire saga so to speak. Tonally the movie is quite different from Infinity War partly because of this.

The first two hours of the film are definitely less frenetic, grandiose and exciting than the last hour, and I think the better pacing in Infinity War, where something epic or exciting happens almost every 10-15 mins, made for a more exciting overall experience. End Game however is a far more character driven, emotive and narratively meaningful movie, just not necessarily as consistently bombastic or thrilling.

Ultimately this is a movie about dealing with grief and closure, and in a way a gift to the committed and long time fans. Those who have been with the MCU movies from day one and watched all of them, know all of them etc, will take more reward from End Game.

The acting performances by some of the cast were really pulled up a notch too, especially by RDJ who knocked it out of the park.

The film also still managed to surprise me several times, which was great as I half expected it to be completely predictable. It's also actually genuinely funny a lot of the time, more so than Infinity War, which for me was a welcome thing helping to balance out some of the more depressing, sombre or morbid elements.

Overall I'd probably give it an 8.5 out of 10, but I need to see it again to really absorb it all in better and form a more conclusive opinion.

Amusingly, my wife who is extremely hard to please and basically low balls every movie she sees in terms of grading, gave it a 10/10 (the first I've seen her give in a while) and said she loved every moment of it.

Scores among our group were:

1 x 10/10
2 x 9/10
1 x 8.5/10
2 x 8/10
3 x 7/10

Making for an average score of 8.17/10, which ironically is pretty close to the RT score average.
 
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elLOaSTy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,852
Wait, how so? He'd be going back to around 1940s before any of the stones were taken.

He went back to return the stones at the point they were taken. If hes in the time where the stones are taken then he wont live through the events of endgame if it's an alt timeline.

Taking stones can not create a new timeline if returning them allows him to somehow wind up in the original. He lives out his life, he doesnt return via time travel to his original dimension, so that means he never left his own timeline.
 

Deleted member 5853

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,725
It is really difficult to imagine that Sharon never once met or saw a picture of her Uncle, and that SHIELD nor Hydra would do any kind of checks on Peggy's husband. Zola's algorithm would probably identify him. It doesn't add up that Steve was the husband all along.
The Sharon thing is the most damning, because she kisses Steve in "Winter Soldier".

However, everything else can just be handwaved away by Steve's knowledge of the future and Peggy's role as head of SHIELD.
 

MonsterJail

Self requested temp ban
Avenger
Feb 27, 2018
1,340
I would like to rewatch this in a rowdy American theatre, so many 'please cheer here moments' that UK audiences don't react to
 

HotHamBoy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
16,423
My thoughts exactly regarding captain Marvel. The movie and the end of this saga would have been much better without her. Brie is a great actress, but lacks the superhero charisma and manages to look like she doesn't give a crap about what's happening in every scene. And she is too OP, making other hero's fights seem inconsequential.
They shouldn't have brought the character to the universe at this stage
Yeah, she really feels tacked on like an after thought. The movie didn't need her at all, they could have written around the parts she was used for pretty easily. The bigger crime is that she's just not a value add as a character but she's always an event when she's on-screen. She didn't really seem emotionally invested in the other characters, or Earth (where her other friends live) nor they with her. Even 5 years later her relationship with them seems tepid and distant. She arrives when needed, quips, does the thing and gets out of town. She feels shoe-horned as hell.

I mean, you want to talk about subverting expectations in this film - i was fully under the impression going in that Carol Danvers was important to Endgame as a character, not just a plot device.
 

elLOaSTy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,852
There have been multiple shields, and the person who makes them works with his wife.

Not hard to fanwank Peggy getting Howard Stark to make one as something for her.

Pretty sure there has been 1 shield this whole time and stark never had enough vibranium to make a second.

In no way am I saying this is a big deal, but for all the goofing they do on time travel movies their own has issues.
 

Serene

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
52,554
That Nebula isn't exactly her Nebula, though, and this Gamora is the loner Gamora who hasn't yet learned the strength of friendship and family. Maybe if Quill made a better first impression...

But where would she even go? There's no reason to think she'd leave. She has no other connection to this timeline.
 

Lonestar

Roll Tahd, Pawl
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
3,560
Also, the time travel stuff again just kind of dilutes a lot of the emotional moments.

So, Natalie is gone. Ok...why not just use Pym Particles and the Quantum Tunnel to go grab Nat a few years after the Snap? Pretty sure if you told her she could be reunited with everyone again a few years in the future she would jump at the opportunity.

IF they wanted to "grab" a Nat to come into the main reality (and replace the one lost in a split off 2014 Morag/Voromir reality) It would be better to get the one that's still alive on earth in that reality, as there's no snappening in it's future (as Thanos is dead). Though, they'd be taking her from a generally good looking reality to one that's repaired but highly damaged (because "5 years later" still happened).

If they got a Post-Snap Nat to come to the "Main" reality, they're just dooming that reality to never undoing their Snap (Someone has to get the Soul Stone). For that Nat, it'd basically be jumping into a life raft, saving herself to the detriment of her universe.


Time Travel/Branch realities...confusion central.
 

jman2050

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
5,815
I enjoyed Nebula casually dusting her other self with no remorse. It highlights her pragmatic nature and shows that she truly has completely moved on past the person she once was and never wants to be again.
 

DeltaRed

Member
Apr 27, 2018
5,746
Yeah, I just didn't expect all of his friends to get dusted too. The odds of that seemed unlikely but I guess it had to be done to make sense of Far From Home.
It is really unlikely and terribly convenient but I suppose Sony has no reason to jump through hoops and change their cast because of the Marvel writers.
 

Maple

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,759
Because that would then ruin the timeline this younger Nat is taken from? Who would be sacrificed to get the Soul Stone in that timeline? The Ancient One was talking exactly about these kind of things.

That's "why didn't they fly the eagles to Mordor"-reasoning. Bringing another Nat would have severe repercussions for that particular timeline, likely dooming it. Exactly what the Avengers didn't want to do.

It creates a new alternate timeline. The Ancient One argued that removing a stone (not a person) could doom the new timeline (and she was specifically referencing the Time Stone as it's used to specifically ward off the dark forces from their reality). Cap literally goes back and injects himself into the past to create a new timeline.
 

OtherWorldly

Banned
Dec 3, 2018
2,857
I do have to agree with that one poster. I suspected Brie was miscast as cap marvel and after this movie it's confirmed I was waiting for how Russo's handle it and she just doesn't seem to fit the superhero role. This is the opposite of Wonder Woman. The actor for that is terrible but she fit Wonder Woman and here Brie is a terrific actor but she simply didn't fit
 

elLOaSTy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,852
It creates a new alternate timeline. The Ancient One argued that removing a stone (not a person) could doom the new timeline (and she was specifically referencing the Time Stone as its used to specifically ward off the dark forces from their reality). Cap literally goes back and injects himself into the past to create a new timeline.

Then that means the old cap at the end is in an alt timeline and he never would have been able to see hulk/hawkeye/etc again at the end.

He has to be in the same timeline to live out his life and wind up with his friends post endgame.
 

Deleted member 5853

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,725
the whole Cap timeline argument basically boils down to whether or not you believe Peggy's husband was a real person.

Hopefully, Feige answers this.
 

Sargerus

▲ Legend ▲
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
20,878
Also, the time travel stuff again just kind of dilutes a lot of the emotional moments.

So, Natalie is gone. Ok...why not just use Pym Particles and the Quantum Tunnel to go grab Nat a few years after the Snap? Pretty sure if you told her she could be reunited with everyone again a few years in the future she would jump at the opportunity.
I get the strange feeling Nat will come back to the present time at the end of her movie next year.
 
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