At what point were people chomping at the bit to eschew traditional Legend of Zelda in favor of something radically different?

[Dog Weissman]

I remember this feeling setting in about half-way through The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. I was so burned out on the Zelda formula that I had to slog to the end of Twilight Princess and skipped Skyward Sword altogether. I don't know if the formula itself that got stale or how it was executed. Could traditional AAA Zelda (remakes, smaller projects not withstanding) have continued beyond Skyward Sword or was that formula a dead end?

I think traditional Zelda peaked with Majora's Mask but if Wind Waker had been properly finished and followed up with a true sequel I'd be all aboard a continued Trad Zelda timeline. Twilight Princess is exactly where The Legend of Zelda lost its magic for me.

 

[touchfuzzy]

Skyward Sword for me, pretty sure that's because it's also the worst one though

 

[Professor Beef]

Toilet Princess and Skyward Sword being back to back duds (IMO of course before anyone gets mad) made me stop looking forward to new mainline console entries. Unfortunately the pattern hasn't really stopped since BOTW.

 

[Chopchop]

This was an ongoing thing ever since Twilight Princess, I think. OoT was the start of replaying the LttP formula, and TP IMO took that formula to its natural conclusion. Skyward Sword tried to do its own take on the formula, but ultimately still kept too many of the things that people were getting tired of, so I think SS is where those feelings hit their peak.

Which is probably one reason why BoTW was such a breath of fresh air in comparison.

I wouldn't say the series ever lost its magic for me, since I still like a lot of parts of SS. It's just that SS also had quite a few sections that I really didn't like.

 

[Manatron]

Skyward Sword for me. I remember thinking "They have to do something different next time." Then they did and I loved it haha

 

[HeresSomeWeapons]

Fatigue probably started to set in with Twilight Princess and then Skyward Sword absolutely murdered anything that was left

 

[TGB86]

Yeah, I think Twilight Princess is where it started to set in. That game is very good, and received a sterling critical reception, but I do think this was the first instance in which the Zelda team self-consciously tried to deliver what they thought fans wanted rather than pushing the franchise forward, and the result felt a bit empty by the end. This was highlighted further when Mario Galaxy came out the following year, gleefully upending the 3D Mario formula to jaw-dropping effect. Twilight Princess felt sort of by-the-numbers, in comparison.

 

[verygooster]

I remember many Skyward Sword reviews were basically like "This is a serviceable to very good Zelda but outside these (divisive) sword motion controls the formula needs a shakeup."

 

[AuthenticM]

By the time I finished Twilight Princess, I realized that the formula needed to change. I didn't even buy Skyward Sword. Still haven't played it.

 

[Belphegor]

Twilight Princess. That game was completely inoffensive and by the numbers.

 

[PucePikmin]

I don't think people ever got tired of the "traditional" Zelda formula -- it was more than Zelda had drifted from its original formula and old-school fans wanted it back. The games had become increasingly, rigidly structured and focused on input gimmicks (touchscreens, motion controls) rather than the more open, exploratory adventures of the past. Skyward Sword is an outlier, not an example of the "traditional formula."

 

[ToddBonzalez]

Skyward Sword was the straw that broke the camel's back. It wasn't just the old formula repeated again. It was absolutely the worst execution of the old formula out of all the 3D Zeldas.

 

[Soltis]

Toilet Princess and Skyward Sword being back to back duds (IMO of course before anyone gets mad) made me stop looking forward to new mainline console entries. Unfortunately the pattern hasn't really stopped since BOTW.

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I think this is it for me. IMO, neither Twilight Princess nor Skyward Sword are terrible, but they also weren't great. Having two less-than-great entries back to back in a series usually known for really great entries was I think a big part of it.

 

[Unknownlight]

I'm not against OoT-style Zelda, but Skyward Sword in particular went too far. Rather than an open action-adventure exploration game with puzzle elements, Skyward Sword was a "puzzle" game themed as an action-adventure. Even the combat became puzzles.

I put "puzzle" in quotation marks though because half the puzzles are games of Simon Says. "See the enemy blocking on the left? Swipe right!" "You want to explore? Too bad, it's DOWSING time!"

I don't think there's anything wrong with OoT-style Zelda in moderation.

 

[HeresSomeWeapons]

Skyward Sword was the straw that broke the camel's back. It wasn't just the old formula repeated again. It was absolutely the worst execution of the old formula out of all the 3D Zeldas.

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Skyward Sword wasn't a straw, it was the whole-ass haystack

 

[Dog Weissman]

And because Souls has to be a part of every conversation...

Why did the Zelda formula feel run into the ground after 6 games (LttP, OoT, MM, WW, TP, SS)

But the Souls' formula is chugging along and more popular than ever 6 games in (DeS, DS1, DS2, BB, DS3, ER). They're all pretty similar.

 

[Dog Weissman]

Yeah, I think Twilight Princess is where it started to set in. That game is very good, and received a sterling critical reception, but I do think this was the first instance in which the Zelda team self-consciously tried to deliver what they thought fans wanted rather than pushing the franchise forward, and the result felt a bit empty by the end. This was highlighted further when Mario Galaxy came out the following year, gleefully upending the 3D Mario formula to jaw-dropping effect. Twilight Princess felt sort of by-the-numbers, in comparison.

Click to shrink...

Well articulated what I was thinking but am too high and stupid to write.

 

[NuclearCake]

I was doing it slightly ever since OOT and wanted a more exploration focused Zelda game like the first one. I got increasingly more annoyed with the series as it went on from there. By the time it got to the flop that was Skyward Sword and the crappy DS titles, I was ready to call it quits.

Thankfully ALBW and BOTW were amazing entries and saved the series for me. They weren't perfect by any means but they were such leaps in quality over the mediocrity that was being served for like a decade.

The funny thing is I remember playing Dark Souls around the same time I played Skyward Sword and being frustrated that Zelda wasn't anywhere near as good.

 

[Lobster Roll]

Twilight Princess was that moment where you can tell the formula was getting extremely long in the tooth and then Skyward Sword was just full-on fatigue. The bit was done at that point, and it was clear that the series needed to do something fresh. Ironically, tapping into Core Zelda is what the series needed to start anew.

 

[ToddBonzalez]

Skyward Sword wasn't a straw, it was the whole-ass haystack

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Yeah that's probably true. If Skyward Sword was as good as Twilight Princess (which is already, like, my 4th favorite 3D Zelda) I would probably have been fine with more Zeldas using the traditional formula in the future.

 

[Kneefoil]

Never reached that point to me, tbh.

 

[fontguy]

And because Souls has to be a part of every conversation...

Why did the Zelda formula feel run into the ground after 6 games (LttP, OoT, MM, WW, TP, SS)

But the Souls' formula is chugging along and more popular than ever 6 games in (DeS, DS1, DS2, BB, DS3, ER). They're all pretty similar.

Click to shrink...

Well it doesn't help that the Zelda series literally repeats the main characters and a large number of key items and story elements over and over.

 

[808s & Villainy]

What year is this??
This thread would've made more sense pre-BOTW

 

[Andrew J]

Me, personally? Never, really, I would have been fine with whatever as long it was well-made. I'm pretty easygoing!

 

[IrishNinja]

damn, twilight princess definitely has the most painfully slow opening, but it's also got some of the series' best dungeons as you go along. i expect SS to catch shit, but it's weird seeing so many non professor beefs dumping on TP

it was fashionable at the time to highlight okami, darksiders etc as taking more chances with the formula, but i thought most people came around to TP (except the overworld, that was indeed bland)

*edit additionally when they went too far out of bounds (spirit tracks comes to mind) that wouldn't be well received either

 

[DoctorPlayer MD]

Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword are underwhelming for reasons specific to those games, not because the Zelda formula doesn't work anymore. I played Wind Waker and A Link Between Worlds after those two games and they were great.

I don't want every Zelda to be Breath of the Wild from now on.

 

[Ashes of Dreams]

I never did. But I remember hearing this start up mostly in the years following Twilight Princess.

I find it strange when people answer with Skyward Sword tbh because that game is just as different from the games that came before it as Breath of the Wild, just in a different direction.

 

[.exe]

It was also TP for me. Felt very samey and uninspired. By Skyward Sword I thought I was done with the 3D entries, so BotW really turned things around for me, thankfully.

 

[Silver-Streak]

damn, twilight princess definitely has the most painfully slow opening, but it's also got some of the series' best dungeons as you go along. i expect SS to catch shit, but it's weird seeing so many non professor beefs dumping on TP

it was fashionable at the time to highlight okami, darksiders etc as taking more chances with the formula, but i thought most people came around to TP (except the overworld, that was indeed bland)

*edit additionally when they went too far out of bounds (spirit tracks comes to mind) that wouldn't be well received either

Click to shrink...

Strong agree on most of this. I feel that Twilight Princess has not only the best dungeons in all of Zelda's history, but some of the best boss fights as well from a mechanical and spectacle standpoint.

The intro can be a slog, though.

 

[Scott Lufkin]

"Waggle the controller to swing your sword" is where I noped out.

 

[Miamiwesker]

TP is a perfect culmination of the OoT formula, to keep still a 10/10 masterpiece and I maintain that if TP came out first it would be the the greatest game ever title that OoT had.

That said the formula did not need to change so much that they remove so much of what makes Zelda Zelda. BOTW is my least favorite 3D Zelda because of how far they changed it, no dungeons being the biggest sin you can commit.

People say BOTW is like Zelda 1 reborn, no it's not. I would kill for BOTW to actually be like Zelda 1. Zelda still had dungeons, it had actual progression. You gained new items in dungeons that opened more of the world and let you access later dungeons and so on. Plus it was not full of fat.

 

[LinkStrikesBack]

Twilight Princess was about as far as you could possibly take the OOT style. And it's fine, that game was deservedly the best seller of the series for a long time, but they needed new ideas. Thankfully BOTW delivered

 

[Rodney McKay]

Honestly, I don't think I've ever gotten tired of the traditional Zelda formula.

While I've liked some more than others, they've always done a good job of changing just enough for them to feel fresh to me.

I'm rarely ever against change, and I LOVED Breath of the Wild, but when I went back to play some older Zelda'a they still felt as great as they always had.

...at least for 3D Zelda's. I never really got into the 2D ones. I always seem to get lost or stuck in the 2D games. Not sure if it's just the "old" game design philosophy of them making things hard to figure out, or if the 2D perspective just makes them feel like less of large adventure to me and more like I'm sliding between connected tiles.

 

[Chev]

Personally I was already seriously feeling it during Wind Waker, but for most people it was Twilight Princess.

 

[Yunyo]

It wasn't the traditional Zelda formula that weighed me down.

It was all the nonsense baggage attached to it that made me feel less like a hero and more like the game's puppet.

Skyward Sword was the straw that broke the camel's back. It wasn't just the old formula repeated again. It was absolutely the worst execution of the old formula out of all the 3D Zeldas.

Click to shrink...

What Todd said.

Plus it doesn't help that SS is the least awe-inspiring Zelda, easily.

 

[Lobster Roll]

damn, twilight princess definitely has the most painfully slow opening, but it's also got some of the series' best dungeons as you go along.

Click to shrink...

While that's a positive for the game, I also think that the focus on dungeons or dungeons being the star of the show is what got a little old after a bit. While I do want massively improved dungeons in BOTW 2, the series became laser-focused on dungeons to the point where exploration took a back seat. Dungeons are cool and all, but there's so much more to a Zelda game than getting McGuffin items in themed dungeons.

 

[Combo]

Toilet Princess

Click to shrink...

Can you please explain to me the motivation for using such language? I see it a lot on the net when someone doesn't like an entry in a franchise and then decides to use a derogatory spin on the name. Why?

Do you hate the game that much?

 

[Professor Beef]

Can you please explain to me the motivation for using such language? I see it a lot on the net when someone doesn't like an entry in a franchise and then decides to use a derogatory spin on the name. Why?

Do you hate the game that much?

Click to shrink...

Yes. Yes I do.

Also lmao at "toilet" being derogatory.

 

[Spinluck]

Skyward Sword was my breaking point, some of the decisions in that game were borderline insulting.

Nintendo has yet to make a bad 3D Zelda game IMO and I'll stick by that.

I'll try whatever they make, they have yet to let me down. I definitely missed some elements of the old Zelda formula in BoTW but the trade-off was absolutely worth it, and it also opens up the door for more of those traditional elements make their way back into this new formula. BoTW is just a 3D manifestation of what Zelda games always really were without all the hardware limitations the series faced when moving to 3D. It's no coincidence that many of the concepts that work there were tested in a make-shift 2D Zelda engine that the devs referenced throughout development.

 

[HK-48]

I think post twilight princess and I never even finished skyward sword so around then

 

[andymcc]

Honestly? I think once I got past the nice aesthetics of Wind Waker, the game was an exhausting chore to play and really soured me on 3D Zelda as a whole. I would suspect there is a divide of younger fans that had it as an early entry into the franchise loved it but-- not me.

I kept buying them and playing them to completion anyways.

 

[Alooful]

What Todd said.

Plus it doesn't help that SS is the least awe-inspiring Zelda, easily.

Click to shrink...

For real. The beginning of the game has so much setup for the sky, and so much intrigue built-up for what's beneath the clouds... And then not only do you go beneath the clouds immediately (something that probably should have been saved for later), but that what's beneath the clouds is NSMB-esque generic settings. Oh, and by the way, you'll spend most of your time down there instead of in the sky.

 

[Combo]

the series became laser-focused on dungeons to the point where exploration took a back seat. Dungeons are cool and all, but there's so much more to a Zelda game than getting McGuffin items in themed dungeons.

Click to shrink...

Actually apart from MM all 3D Zeldas focused way too much on dungeons to the detriment of the rest of the game. The strength of TP is that it made that aspect of the game superior to previous games. If you are going to spend so much time in dungeons, you might as well have excellent ones.

 

[Fhtagn]

And because Souls has to be a part of every conversation...

Why did the Zelda formula feel run into the ground after 6 games (LttP, OoT, MM, WW, TP, SS)

But the Souls' formula is chugging along and more popular than ever 6 games in (DeS, DS1, DS2, BB, DS3, ER). They're all pretty similar.

Click to shrink...

I posit that everyone got tired of the tutorialization and endless handholding and not the core gameplay.

I remember I wanted to replay Windwaker and then realized I couldn't turn off the tutorials and bailed.

Edit: also the Souls games gave me exactly what I wanted out of Zelda games, oddly enough. They feel like the original NES game done in 3d, down to the profoundly weird secrets.

 

[Ryuelli]

I never did.

I absolutely adored the series up until Skyward Sword, where I began to like but not love it.

To me, Skyward Sword and BOTW are polar opposites in that neither really fits what I want out of the series (unlike the games that preceded them).

BOTW is too open and has extremely lackluster dungeons, what I feel comfortable in saying is the worst boss designs in the series (considering they're pretty much the same design over and over again), and I don't really like how the story is told.

Skyward Sword is way too closed off (the world feels less like a world and more like a bunch of hallways), but has excellent dungeons (Ancient Cistern is one of the best in the entire series), fun boss designs, and a simple, but enjoyable story.

If I were Goldilocks, one is too hot, the other too cold, and I think the closest a Zelda title has come to feeling "Just Right" over the past decade is A Link Between Worlds.

As someone who has 0 interest in the Souls series, it sucks that Zelda is apparently being influenced by it and there's no alternative for me to jump to.

Wind Waker to this day is still my favorite game of all time, just an absolute masterpiece.

 

[Vilam]

*champing

"chomping at the bit" is not a saying.

 

[Deleted member 17210]

I wanted an open world Zelda with emergent elements over twenty years ago. I was picturing something quite similar to BOTW. I got a lot of shit on message boards back then for suggesting Zelda take notes from Western PC games.

 

[Combo]

Yes. Yes I do.

Also lmao at "toilet" being derogatory.

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I see. So you don't think it is a good game objectively? I mean I really dislike playing some games but I wouldn't say they were bad objectively.

I do think it is derogatory. Some devs worked hard making that game and a lot of people enjoy it. I dislike ALttP but I wont call it 'A Sink to the Last'. It would make me sound like jerk. The only time I could justify it was if I thought the devs were purposefully destroying a franchise.

 

[Tochtli79]

Twilight Princess for me was nothing special. It did feel like the formula was becoming stale, but it still felt worth playing. Revisiting it now I mostly feel the same although the world is more enjoyable than I remembered. Skyward Sword had some nice moments but it was an overall dull/frustrating experience. I love traditional Zelda dungeons but these games were following the formula way too closely. ALBW shook it up and was better for it. Hopefully the same will be true of BOTW2 if dungeons are back.

 

[Dr. Feel Good]

Twilight Princess into Phantom Hourglass. Yikes.