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Are you satisfied with... (full Game of Thrones spoilers)
- Thread starter Deleted member 249
- Start date
How do you kill him without a surprise attack? You'd would need an army that could beat his army (they had "the greatest army the world has ever seen" and it wasn't enough), and you would also need the NK to not leg it when he realised he was losing the battle.
That was her water dancing instructor Syrio Forel, not the faceless men. The faceless men really didn't seem like warriors nor did her training with them really do that. They used faces and disguises to assassinate. Her training was mostly doing chores, getting beaten, and then kind of fumbling through a terribly written storyline to beat the waif.
I'm not surprised she ended up here, but they seriously fumbled the lead up if they really did know this is where she ends up.
I think we're going to get some significant revelations about the relationship between the three eyed raven, the children and the NK before all is said and done. It's kind of weird to think the plot will just move on completely, way too many hints that Bran has some kind of suspect connection with the NK now for him to just sit around providing no further insight for the three remaining episodes. Eg. In the battle Bran warged only when the NK came into play, Sapochnik's direction of the crows flying up to the NK seemed to suggest Bran was communicating with him. Then, he only unwarged when the two finally came face to face. It is unexplained what he is, or could, be doing during this time. Just chilling inside a crow taking it all in is laughable, he is capable of so much more. He also seems willing to manipulate or 'play' people to get them to do what he wants; giving Arya the dagger, telling Theon what he needs to hear so he can effectively sacrifice himself to the NK, withholding information on Jaime that spares his life, and forgiving him to inspire his loyalty. He is misleading our entire gang as to the reality of his relationship with the children and the NK, feeding them half-truths about him being the world's memory in order to obfuscate whatever deeper unexplained connections the three entities share.
My own theory is that Bran Stark died in that cave, his identity and motives subsumed by those of the TER; who will turn out to have orchestrated all of this by interfering with time to ensure certain events happen. At this point he is basically the smoke monster assuming the form of John Locke.
My own theory is that Bran Stark died in that cave, his identity and motives subsumed by those of the TER; who will turn out to have orchestrated all of this by interfering with time to ensure certain events happen. At this point he is basically the smoke monster assuming the form of John Locke.
Not only that, but we literally see right before that the other walkers ignore a different idiotic charge - Theon's. They could've cut him down easily before he got to the NK - but the NK is a bit of a cocky dick this battle because he is sure he will win, so he does it himself. Same thing here - he had a second to know Arya was coming but wanted to do it himself. He didn't know she had a Valyrian steel dagger, he might not have even known those existed at all. Hardhome suggests the WW didn't know any weapons could hurt them, and they've only seen Jon's sword bring one of them down.
I think "Deus ex machina" is technically true here, but not thematically. The Deus in question is shown repeatedly to be real for the majority of the show, and has been setting up this as the final battle for just as long.
I don't think I'm really 'satisfied' compared to what the show was in Season 1-3, but I suppose it was fine considering where the show is now. It's now a big trope filled heroes do heroic things and deaths are legendary sort of show filled with theatrics and comic book style fakeouts. The show started and felt like it was pitched as the opposite of that sort of fantasy, so it kind of sucks that this is where we are. But after Season 7 I was pretty much ready for this sort of thing.
My post in the other thread delves in more:
My post in the other thread delves in more:
It felt wrapped up too quickly despite the massive scale of the battle, and I generally dislike the trope of only having to kill the leader and all of a sudden all his dudes just crumble. Arya running in out of nowhere and one-shotting him was a fist-pump moment but it didn't feel quite as dramatically interesting or built up enough (they really like that out of nowhere last minute save in these battle episodes huh). Like we don't even see any of our great sword-swangin characters even *try* to go one on one with the night king or one of his bois? Missed opportunity for some escalating tension and threats since the white walkers do jack shit here.
That being said, the episode on the whole was a pretty great realization of the enormity of the threat of the white walkers/zombies and did justice to the scale of it, even if they get wiped out after one battle. The night king thing was always less interesting to me than the internal westerosi conflict so in that regard I'm glad it's been dealt with so we can move on to the more interesting resolution than ULTIMATE BATTLE OF GOOD VS EVIL.
That being said, the episode on the whole was a pretty great realization of the enormity of the threat of the white walkers/zombies and did justice to the scale of it, even if they get wiped out after one battle. The night king thing was always less interesting to me than the internal westerosi conflict so in that regard I'm glad it's been dealt with so we can move on to the more interesting resolution than ULTIMATE BATTLE OF GOOD VS EVIL.
Even despite the obvious "they're not the same thing," argument this is still some nonsense. Sauron corrupted one of the most powerful beings in Middle Earth; his ring was the primary driver of a vast majority of the story's conflict; his losses in battle (which themselves required insane amounts of effort) still ended with the heroes having to go on a suicide mission for the faint chance that Frodo could destroy the ring. Sauron was essentially the 'creator' of the Age of Man, his threat changing literally all of Middle of Earth. The Night King killed a few small factions and made Cersei's inevitable defeat a little bit harder for the good guys; Walder Frey, a creepy old man guarding a bridge, had more of an impact on Westeros than the Night King.
As for Aragorn not fighting anyone important, that doesn't matter because he was the one to lead the suicide charge that helped Frodo destroy the ring; Jon's involvement in the Battle of Winterfell did practically nothing to affect the final conclusion and neither did the armies he had fought so hard to collect.
It depends entirely on how the last 3 episodes play out for me. If most of the characters get satisfying conclusions then I'm fine with the dead being built up and dying at their first real test.
I couldn't care less about the Night King or who sits on the Throne at the end. My stakes are with the characters personal stories, I still believe the show is good at making me care about what happens to them.
I couldn't care less about the Night King or who sits on the Throne at the end. My stakes are with the characters personal stories, I still believe the show is good at making me care about what happens to them.
This is a false dichotomy. There are plenty of ways to write around this, one of which is, you know, not making it so that "kill the NK = the entire night army dies" (an invention of the show, by the way).
So yeah obviously they could have a different enemy that worked differently, and spent 7 seasons building up to however it is that enemy is defeated. It would be a different show.
THIS TV show however spent 7 seasons putting all the parts in place to defeat the enemy they had in the way it needed to be defeated. Maybe it wasn't planned that way from the start, but if not they were incredibly fucking lucky, because in hindsight it all worked toward this.
But that's the problem, it didn't "work", it was stupid and a lot of people hate it for a reason.
So, more like they wrote themselves in a corner with that "defeat the NK and everything is over" trope and were forced into this false dichotomy and had no more episodes/seasons to do a proper Long Night story arc...
What do you mean it didn't work? Killing the NK kills his army, they killed him, his army died. I get that people might have preferred something different, but I don't get what didn't work.
How do you beat the undead otherwise anyway? The reason they are a world ending threat is because of the snowball effect that every lost battle increases their numbers. You either beat them in battle before their numbers get to big (hence getting everyone south of the wall, which failed), or you need some kind of "head shot" mechanism.
How can anyone say the dead were not much of a threat?! Winterfell would have been obliterated. In fact they were about to be! Even though they prepped and had 2 dragons.
Thought it was a solid episode. Arya killing NK came as a surprise, but once I let it sink in: I kinda liked it. The whole eyes things was a nice touch. The switch technique. And also the death of NK mirroring his creation.
I hope they just clarify bran's role a bit more. If they would explain it as him setting everything in motion, to get to this exact point, it would make the series better. Master tactician to have all the pins at the right place and time in order to defeat NK.
NK smiling was such an amazing moment. Him raising the dead, once again epic. The feeling of dispair was amazing. From beginning (dothraki) to end.
Also small nitpick: how did sam possibly survive that. The last we saw of him was being jumped by 10s of wrights... smh.
(Theon you gorgeous bastard! What a character arch.)
Thought it was a solid episode. Arya killing NK came as a surprise, but once I let it sink in: I kinda liked it. The whole eyes things was a nice touch. The switch technique. And also the death of NK mirroring his creation.
I hope they just clarify bran's role a bit more. If they would explain it as him setting everything in motion, to get to this exact point, it would make the series better. Master tactician to have all the pins at the right place and time in order to defeat NK.
NK smiling was such an amazing moment. Him raising the dead, once again epic. The feeling of dispair was amazing. From beginning (dothraki) to end.
Also small nitpick: how did sam possibly survive that. The last we saw of him was being jumped by 10s of wrights... smh.
(Theon you gorgeous bastard! What a character arch.)
I am surprised how well it worked. I didn't actually expect the way the NK got beaten to have been worked towards throughout the whole show. It almost seems obvious in hindsight, which makes it even more impressive that I couldn't predict it (I'm sure some people did).
I think that's kind of the point. They had a stupid plan that was hastily put together by a guy known for his charisma but not his strategic competence. They won purely because one person had balls enough to try a sneak attack while NK was distracted and pulled off a clever but rudimentary knife stunt. Jon lost the Battle of Bastards too before the Vale knights saved his ass.
Then it should have been obliterated. The only reason it exists is as a momument of the Others first defeat. If they wanted it to feel threatening, then the long night should have effected the entire world like in the past, and not just a single night at Winterfell.
It's hilarious how Season 7 had characters teleporting across the world every other episode.
I feel like I'm the only one who straight up didn't care at all about the white walker zombie storyline and just wanted to get it over with.
The first few seasons hooked me because of the interesting characters, twisty plotlines and low-fantasy setting. I thought that Jon/Bran's beyond the wall storyline was easily the most boring aspect of the show (pre-Dorne anyway). Were people really excited for the warring kingdoms to put aside their differences, team up to fight the "real threat(™)", then learn some kind of big life lesson about how war is pointless?
The more I think about it the more I'm starting to think that the white walkers getting instantly owned was a nice subversion of the typical "ancient evil" fantasy trope. That being said I can understand being upset if you were hyped for Walking Dead With Swords or really wanted to know why the zombies planned on killing all life.
The first few seasons hooked me because of the interesting characters, twisty plotlines and low-fantasy setting. I thought that Jon/Bran's beyond the wall storyline was easily the most boring aspect of the show (pre-Dorne anyway). Were people really excited for the warring kingdoms to put aside their differences, team up to fight the "real threat(™)", then learn some kind of big life lesson about how war is pointless?
The more I think about it the more I'm starting to think that the white walkers getting instantly owned was a nice subversion of the typical "ancient evil" fantasy trope. That being said I can understand being upset if you were hyped for Walking Dead With Swords or really wanted to know why the zombies planned on killing all life.
That explains why he wants to destroy all humans. It does not explain why he hates Wikipedia, and needs to expose himself to danger just to destroy it himself.
Doesn't he know that if he kills all humans, he won't need to worry about people updating or reading Wikipedia? Yeesh.
I could get if the Three Eyed Raven was considered a major threat by the children, and the Night King was specifically programmed to treat him as a priority target . . . But that's never really explained, or even alluded to, by the show.
The whole scenario just felt super contrived.
It's also annoying that a little poke from valyrian steel was all that was necessary to make the NK explode like the death-star. It's frustrating to think, in hindsight, that all Jon and company needed to do at Hardhome to end the centuries-old threat of the NK forever was to just shoot him with a single valyrian steel-tipped arrow.
I didn't hate the episode, but it was super underwhelming and I found most of the action to be mindless and boring. They could have done A LOT better.
What's interesting now is that Dany's army has been completely decimated, so how the hell is she gonna win the war with Cersei?
I kinda think that was the narrative purpose of the Night King. To make the final war a lot harder for Dany to win.
Surprised you made it 8 seasons then. I think it's odd to assume this last episode was the climax of the season and series and that there will be not much left. Even show runners who didn't sign up to make GOT fanservice understand that wouldn't go over well.
While I would have liked better they were the final boss I think the episode portrayed correctly that they were an unstoppable force that could only be stopped by some unexpected trickery, that any human army had any chance of putting a real war fight would have been way cheesier imo.
In fact the whole series points at the Lord of Light/Three eyed raven reviving some people or keeping them alive so they all can lead to create a slim chance to overcome an impossible scenario, time travel precongnition future manipulation was the Lord of Light ace up the sleeve the whole time.
In fact the whole series points at the Lord of Light/Three eyed raven reviving some people or keeping them alive so they all can lead to create a slim chance to overcome an impossible scenario, time travel precongnition future manipulation was the Lord of Light ace up the sleeve the whole time.
I feel like we're gonna learn more about 3ER/Bran/Lord of Light in the next few episodes, and why the Night King was after him personally.
Like, one theory I have (which probably won't be true) is that Bran can raise the dead just like the Night King, which is why he wanted Bran out of the picture. So he's gonna start raising all of the dead from the NK's army and Dany's army to go march on King's Landing or something.
For the last few seasons, I feel like I'm watching the show because I've invested so much time into it rather than it actually being good. The plot and the characters have been dumb for a while now, nothing in this episode is as stupid as last season's trek beyond the wall and losing a dragon to show Cersei an undead which was pointless.
While I don't expect the show to be smart anymore, I do expect some level of satisfaction from it. This episode fell flat in so many ways. I don't take issue with Arya getting the kill, but her just teleporting from the air and screaming as she attacks was so cringe-worthy. This isn't nearly as bothersome as the ridiculous plot armor all of the main characters have, which makes the show feel cheap.
A world-ending existential threat felt like something they had to get out of the way ASAP so D&D can start working on movies already.
While I don't expect the show to be smart anymore, I do expect some level of satisfaction from it. This episode fell flat in so many ways. I don't take issue with Arya getting the kill, but her just teleporting from the air and screaming as she attacks was so cringe-worthy. This isn't nearly as bothersome as the ridiculous plot armor all of the main characters have, which makes the show feel cheap.
A world-ending existential threat felt like something they had to get out of the way ASAP so D&D can start working on movies already.
At the end of the day Arya just needs to disguise herself and kill Cersei and Euron and no war needs to be had. They are very easy targets with her apparent skillset so her not doing this makes little sense. At the very least they need to show her trying and for whatever reason she screws up and is killed.
Arya should kill every single major character in the show.
Maybe Sansa will outwit her though.
Maybe Sansa will outwit her though.
The three eyed raven has the knowledge to stop him. That's all the motivation he needs. The show makes it plain he's aware of the three eyed raven and wants to kill him. He's been chasing him for years by that time TER is introduced as a character.
They just need to kill Cersei. There's nothing tying either the Golden Company or Euron and his fleet to King's Landing if she isn't there so there's really no reason to believe that they'd keep on fighting if she were to die.
Essentially they just need to get Arya to sneak into the crypts (as Tyrion and Davos did in Season 7), sneak past the Mountain (who has already been shown to not do well with DEX builds) and they've won.
EDIT: I guess she'd have to kill Euron as well just in case. But considering how easy Theon of all people was able to save Yara that wouldn't seem like it would be an issue for Arya either.
Bran provides a different (less compelling) reason in episode 8.2. More importantly though, at this point in the story most of the leadership knows that valyrian steel can be used to kill the white walkers so the NK specifically targeting Bran over any of them doesn't serve any obvious strategic vantage.
. . . And honestly, if someone knows how to kill you, doesn't that provide you with a huge incentive NOT to confront them? You know . . . the exact opposite of what the NK actually did? He could have just let his mindless, undead minions do his dirty work for him.
It doesn't make any sense (based on the information we've been given up to this point).
Yeah when you put out that way it sure seems like it will be easy, but I'm guessing the show isn't gonna go that route. For whatever reason. It'll probably be a dumb reason.
The Mountain will suddenly be some super-dexterous fighter that can take down even the fastest of foes (until he dies at the hands of his brother at Memebowl). Either that or Arya will suddenly forget how to sneak and just run in to Cersei's final boss room like an idiot allowing the Mountain and the Queen's Guard to surround her. Or both.
My thinking is that Arya will use a face to get close to her but Cersei will somehow be able to see through it. Or maybe Qyburn will. And she'll get caught and killed or imprisoned.
The concept of "kill the leader and all those under his control also die" was introduced (very sloppily I might add. Remember that one wight that somehow survived?) last season though. If some of these things had actually been threaded into the narrative early on, like Martin does in the books, I don't think people would have nearly as much of an issue with it.
