Are you Abolition or Reform with regard to police and prisons?

[Samiya]

The recent events have really shocked me to the core. So excuse me for making a political thread. With the horrible events going on, I'm interested in knowing where people land when it comes to solving the problems of police forces and prisons. Everyone already know what reforming means, I imagine, and it's something I've always thought was the solution. But I have also been reading a lot of interesting things on abolition of police and prison. And it just seems like reforming the police and the prison system is simply impossible, because they are fundamentally white supremacist and do not actually help anyone or fix any of society's problems. Instead you need to rethink how we deal with conflict resolution, education, public health, & property relations, rather than punishment and violence.

I saw that there's an Official Thread on it with resources and discussion:

https://www.resetera.com/threads/prison-and-police-abolition-resources-and-discussion-ot.188388/

and here's an interview with one of the many people behind the abolition movement:

LSM: What are some common misconceptions about police abolition?

BY: The biggest misconception is that the absence of policing as we know it is the absence of safety. A lot of people think that police abolition means letting "rapists, murders and pedophiles run free"—as if the very same police officers we place our trust in aren't the murders and rapists we claim to be ridding our communities of. According to the National Center for Women and Policing, 40 percent of police officer families experience domestic violence in contrast to 10 percent of families in the general population. There are numerous cases of police officers killing their wives. We also know that sexual assault runs rampant within policing and Black women and sex workers are particularly vulnerable. Daniel Holtzclaw who was convicted in 2015 of raping multiple women over a period of six months is just one example. We also can easily look at the GTTF (Gun Trace Task Force) Trial in Baltimore to see how officers used their badge to aid gangs, participate in drug trafficking rings, plant drugs and weapons, steal money from homes and even carried out robberies. GTTF was able to thrive for years and without any consequences.

Is this the policing we are so invested in? Are these the people who are supposed to keep us safe? Furthermore, most police officers are not even from the communities that they police and therefore lack awareness of the culture of the people they serve. In Baltimore in 2010, about 3 in 4 police officers did not live in the city. White people make up 28% of the population in Baltimore city but make up 45% of Baltimore city's police force.

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LSM: And it police who are putting people in prisons—especially black people. So to get rid of on we must get rid of the other?

If we understand that the justice system was created to funnel black folks in prison for economic gain (carceral capitalism), then we know that police officers are the suppliers of the people. About $80 billion is spent each year on correctional facilities with the intention of receiving that profit back. Policing is the engine behind the justice system and ensures that prisons are filled with labourers and will therefore produce profit. Police officers are charged with enforcing the laws and are able to make their own interpretations of what is legal and illegal. They get to decide who will enter into the justice system and who will not (the decriminalization of opioids is an example of this). The documentary "Crime + Punishment" on Hulu examines police quotas and how despite quotas in New York policing being banned in 2010, officers are still expected to make a certain amount of arrests. In the documentary one officer says that he was explicitly told to "arrest black males between the ages of 14 and 21" and faced consequences for refusing to do so.

We also cannot ignore the roots of policing. Policing as an institution in U.S. comes out of slave patrols who were tasked with catching runaway enslaved people and preventing rebellions. If we know that the justice system cannot provide real justice and accountability then we know that policing cannot provide real safety because it is inherently anti-black. Michael Brown taught us this. Aiyana Jones taught us this. Atatiana Jefferson taught us this. Prison is modern day slavery and police officers are modern day slave patrols. This why the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense had armed panther patrols—it was a response to police brutality.

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An Introduction to Police Abolition

Like the conversation surrounding reparations, the idea of abolishing the police has shifted in recent years from something (wrongfully) viewed as radical to the kind of an idea many are trying to get a handle on in clear, pragmatic ways: Do we rely too much on police? Is there actually a...

baltimorebeat.com

So I am curious what people on this forum think. Is reform still possible? Or is abolition the only way? Please lock if this is inappropriate.

 

[DeusOcha]

For the US? I've considered the two to mean the same thing. Abolition of the American police institution must happen to reform in via creating it from scratch.

 

[MonoStable]

Does that article say what would happen in place of policing? If you get rid of police you'll get a massive increase in "stand your ground" cases.

 

[Deffers]

Abolition for sure.

And let me be clear to reformists right now: guess what? You need us. You wanna fight the police unions, you're gonna need an Overton window shuffle going. You need to shoot for the moon on this one if you want to hit the stars. Police abolitionists need a place at the table if you want to change the discourse. Rhetorically you cannot discard police abolition in the face of these abuses. If cops feel like they're gonna get away with this they're going to press the advantage.

 

[Lost Lemurian]

I answered "reform", but in order to reform the police and prison system they would have to be completely broken down and rebuilt from scratch.

 

[Xando]

Reform. Abolish is never gonna happen doesn't matter how often twitter and ERA talks about it

 

[Fat4all]

destroy and rebuild

being shackled to the past is being shackled to a racism-built institution

 

[Quzar]

Verso

Verso Books is the largest independent, radical publishing house in the English-speaking world.

www.versobooks.com

Here's a good book on police abolition that is currently free.

Here's also an anarcho communists idea of what a society without police would look like:

 

[OrangeNova]

I assume by reform you mean "Abolish the systemic issues, and reform policing/prisons with systems that would better serve and protect citizens."

Because if so, Reform.

But realistically both need the other.

 

[Znazzy]

Reform, but as others have stated, it needs to be broken down and rebuilt. Is there a modern society that doesn't have policing for comparison?

 

[Deleted member 49535]

I really doubt a society without police would work in the real world.

 

[Siggy-P]

Seems quite obvious the correct answer is to abolish the current police system/organisations and replace them with new reformed versions.

Is there a modern society that doesn't have policing for comparison?

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No. They may have police by another name but no.

 

[Deleted member 28564]

Visible police presence reduces the crime rate, according to many studies. Put differently, systems we have in place now are the result of generations of study and experimentation. Abolition, as it is defined in this thread, is likely a fever dream. At the very least, it's wholly untested in practice and will not be efficient when introduced.

 

[Wackamole]

Is abolition even a realistic option?

 

[McNum]

It may be easier to restart from a blank sheet of paper and build whatever the new form of law enforcement should be from scratch. Fixing what is just seems like a much bigger and harder job than making something new entirely and throwing out the old.

So does that count for Abolition or Reform? Because I'm thinking one, then the other.

 

[signal]

Does that article say what would happen in place of policing?

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Reading it is one way to find out.

 

[Kyrios]

Reform is still possible but like others have said you'd have to start from scratch anyway for the most part.

 

[Volimar]

The kinds of reforms we need would be so radically different from the way things are now that they might as well be an abolition.

 

[Deleted member 2226]

Reform. Abolish is never gonna happen doesn't matter how often twitter and ERA talks about it

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As the article in the OP demonstrates too, they don't have any concrete plan about what to do, it's just a bunch of wishful thinking. When straight-up asked "is there any place where there's no police that works", they tacitly admit that's not the case and instead rail on "globalization" as the problem.

Stuff like the community phone tree is the creation of ad-hoc bureaucracies to get around the police because they don't agree with how the police work now, (which is understandable), but in no world is that actually an ideal scenario. Professionals are always going to be better than "oh I have a neighbor who's a medic, that's my emergency plan."

I often see the answer as being "community policing", whatever that vague term means, and I always immediately think about the Shomrim in Brooklyn, who are just another vector for misconduct with even less oversight and accountability and even more issues with insularity.

Verso

Verso Books is the largest independent, radical publishing house in the English-speaking world.

www.versobooks.com

Here's a good book on police abolition that is currently free.

Here's also an anarcho communists idea of what a society without police would look like:

Click to shrink...

The idea that your anarchist commune is going to have an ad-hoc posse that will deal with violent crime and somehow be so well-trained there isn't an issue is laughable. As is just spending three sentences on the reality that you need actual professionals.

 

[Deffers]

OK, I feel like if you're "we reform it by razing the institution of policing to the ground, there are no other options," you are... an abolitionist.

The anarchist government in Spain of the CNT-FAI had "policing." But its cops were not part of the police system that had come before.

 

[Deleted member 28564]

As the article in the OP demonstrates too, they don't have any concrete plan about what to do, it's just a bunch of wishful thinking. When straight-up asked "is there any place where there's no police that works", they tacitly admit that's not the case and instead rail on "globalization" as the problem.

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This caught my attention, too.

LSM: Are there any places in the U.S. or in the world living successfully without police? Where?

BY: I think it's important to understand that the purpose of policing varies from country to country. There is a reason why year after year the U.S. has the great honor of having the highest incarceration rate in the world. This is not to say that violence and corruption does not exist in other country's police forces, but the militarization of U.S. policing allows it to function in a different—a way that has influenced other countries as well. While there are sovereign states who do not have armed forces or policing as an institution, I do not know of any western country that is without police. This is proof of the globalization of policing. Even with police, there are countries who have disarmed policing. This includes Norway, Iceland, New Zealand, Britain, and Ireland.

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Or, in short, no.

 

[Xando]

As the article in the OP demonstrates too, they don't have any concrete plan about what to do, it's just a bunch of wishful thinking. When straight-up asked "is there any place where there's no police that works", they tacitly admit that's not the case and instead rail on "globalization" as the problem.

Stuff like the community phone tree is the creation of ad-hoc bureaucracies to get around the police because they don't agree with how the police work now, (which is understandable), but in no world is that actually an ideal scenario. Professionals are always going to be better than "oh I have a neighbor who's a medic, that's my emergency plan."

I often see the answer as being "community policing", whatever that vague term means, and I always immediately think about the Shomrim in Brooklyn, who are just another vector for misconduct with even less oversight and accountability and even more issues with insularity.

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This caught my attention, too.

Or, in short, no.

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Yeah abolishing is a interesting idea but as soon as you think about it for more than 5 minutes you'll realize it's not gonna happen.

 

[Fuu]

Verso

Verso Books is the largest independent, radical publishing house in the English-speaking world.

www.versobooks.com

Here's a good book on police abolition that is currently free.

Here's also an anarcho communists idea of what a society without police would look like:

Click to shrink...

Thanks for these. Going to read and watch.

 

[Greenpaint]

Abolish as in "start from scratch" or abolish as in "end all law enforcement"?

I don't see how laws without enforcement would work. Imagine an organised criminal gang doing a spree of break-ins into homes. How are you going to take care and contain the damage? How are you going to make sure they can't continue causing damage? Laws without enforcement are not laws, they are suggestions.

What you might be asking for is a less centralised law enforcement? If I understood correctly? Each community setting their own laws and/or their enforcement? I can only imagine if that there is no central law enforcement, a culture where different communities have rules and enforcement of their own?

Or are you saying that laws should not be enforced? That we should trust the people to behave and follow the laws?

 

[SlothmanAllen]

Abolition is never going to happen and if you think it will I have a bridge to sell you. Reform is the only realistic option, however, it will take time and continual pressure to effect real chance. The US has so much room for improvement with regards to police violence and use of force that moving towards a system/level of that displayed in most EU countries would be a massive improvement.

On top of that, the US has to reform portions of its legal system to be more about rehabilitation as opposed to punishment.

Outside of that, we cannot ignore the systemic economic inequalities minorities face. Without economic support, these groups will always be the target of increased policing.

 

[Deffers]

TO UNDERSTAND THE UBIQUITY OF THE POLICING SYSTEM IN THE MODERN DAY:

The Long Arm of the Law | Lyle Jeremy Rubin

In Badges Without Borders, Stuart Schrader demonstrates how the nightmare of American imperial war grew up alongside a parallel despotism stateside.

thebaffler.com

Why aren't there places with different policing structures? Policing structures are part of what we exported in the post-war period with our dominance. And they are also structures that are artifacts of colonial occupation.

It is NOT because alternative structures to policing in the modern day are impossible.

 

[Parthenios]

I'd be for some sort of abolish -> rebuild, but that's really just a different sort of reform.

Police forces are never going to be abolished because their (non-brutal) functions are necessary. If you abolish the police, some other thing is going to fill that void, be it a state run Cops but with Another Name, or private police forces (not better!), or even warlords.

 

[Red]

I don't see reform working. It would require huge community and federal oversight. Feels easier to throw it away and start over.

Something needs to fill a community policing role. The current police force has failed. We need something different.

 

[Aske]

I'm for abolishing prisons, because they're barbaric and don't do anything but rob people of their humanity; but I'm for police reform. We need law enforcement of some kind, and it needs to be state run rather than contracted out to some kind of horrific private security company. The concept of a police force isn't a bad one; it just needs to be held to a far higher standard, and beholden to the appropriate checks and balances.

 

[Quzar]

The idea that your anarchist commune is going to have an ad-hoc posse that will deal with violent crime and somehow be so well-trained there isn't an issue is laughable. As is just spending three sentences on the reality that you need actual professionals.

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I'm assuming you didn't watch anything because that's not at all the proposition. You have to address the economic structure to meet the material needs of everyone before something like that could even begin to exist, because most crime is of an economic background. Also, cops are not professionals. Sending out a social worker would be more professional than a cop.

 

[Maxim726x]

I really doubt a society without police would work in the real world.

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Of course it wouldn't.

What an absurd suggestion.

 

[Deffers]

I'm for abolishing prisons, because they're barbaric and don't do anything but rob people of their humanity; but I'm for police reform. We need law enforcement of some kind, and it needs to be state run rather than contracted out to some kind of horrific private security company. The concept of a police force isn't a bad one; it just needs to be held to a far higher standard, and beholden to the appropriate checks and balances.

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OK, but does the poll even properly represent the position that is "raze this shit to the ground but build a new system in its stead?"

Not all police abolitionists are utopian in nature. Crime prevention of some sort has to arise. Conflict resolution has to arise. But if it isn't based on the ground of slave-catchers and colonial/post-War exporting... do you even call it policing? And if you reform policing, but then reproduce the same structures we have today... have you really reformed policing?

 

[julia crawford]

I don't know about abolition to talk about it, but removing police presence would probably help. Defunding and reinvestment in other ways of increasing safety and value to communities seems to be the current conversation and that's a great option too.

 

[Deleted member 2226]

I'm assuming you didn't watch anything because that's not at all the proposition. You have to address the economic structure to meet the material needs of everyone before something like that could even begin to exist, because most crime is of an economic background. Also, cops are not professionals. Sending out a social worker would be more professional than a cop.

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I watched the entire video. He literally says violent crime wouldn't be a serious problem and you can address it with volunteer groups. He's living in a fantasy land where you'd have superpowered social workers who would somehow want to be the contact point for everything going wrong in their neighborhood.

 

[Parthenios]

I'm for abolishing prisons, because they're barbaric and don't do anything but rob people of their humanity;

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So what happens when a child molester gets convicted? Honest question, I have no idea what a prison-less justice system would look like.

 

[Thatonedice1]

Top to bottom reform. Abolishment isn't gonna happen.

 

[Brentos]

There are police and prison systems that work well outside of the US - I don't necessarily think that abolition is a good idea.

Although I'm outside of the US, and I may be missing the nuance, it seems to me that reforms re: gun control and deprivatising prisons, would go a long way to improving the overall situation.

 

[Double 0]

Somewhere in the middle, but closer to abolishment.

Massive defunding and demilitarizing, reallocation of said resources to other more helpful institutions, and with those other resources buffed up, we can be clear of what police can and cannot do.

 

[Xando]

I'm assuming you didn't watch anything because that's not at all the proposition. You have to address the economic structure to meet the material needs of everyone before something like that could even begin to exist, because most crime is of an economic background. Also, cops are not professionals. Sending out a social worker would be more professional than a cop.

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I'm all for more focus on prevention and rehabilitation but thinking a social worker will be able to reform a rapist while the rapist is out in the wild being a danger to the community is laughable

 

[Quzar]

I watched the entire video. He literally says violent crime wouldn't be a serious problem and you can address it with volunteer groups. He's living in a fantasy land where you'd have superpowered social workers who would somehow want to be the contact point for everything going wrong in their neighborhood.

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Considering the video is 16:30 minutes long and you responded to me in 10, I'm gonna say you didn't watch the whole thing lmao. The video starts out straight up saying that you have to meet the material needs of people before you can even assume to have a protective system like this. Okay, so you think social workers are somehow worse at this than cops because of what? They don't have guns?

 

[Greenpaint]

Just to add something, police force brutality is an issue that is not present in all countries. I live in Scandinavia and our police is peaceful and highly trusted. In period of 2003 to 2013 (latest statistics I could find), grand total of two people were killed by police. 2 people total in 10 years!

I don't think the idea of police force is wrong, I think the brutality issue in USA stems from lack of regulation of police, lack of education for police officers and the hiring practices. Read this article for example:

Court OKs Barring High IQs for Cops

abcnews.go.com

 

[Quzar]

I'm all for more focus on prevention and rehabilitation but thinking a social worker will be able to reform a rapist while the rapist is out in the wild being a danger to the community is laughable

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Again, you ignore the fact that investigators are necessary as well. Cops don't catch rapists in the act of raping, investigators already do the job of dealing with those types of crimes.

 

[beelulzebub]

If reform is all we can get I'll take it but honestly burn the whole fucking thing down.

 

[AGoodODST]

Can't see how abolition works and what's posted in the OT doesn't give any credible alternative.

I especially fail to see how a community policing option works any better considering the issues that plague the police force are just as prevalent in regular society.

That being said I certainly don't have any answers for how you could go about reform.

Change is desperately needed, whatever form it takes.

 

[FF Seraphim]

I have no god damn idea how you would reform the US police force without tearing it up and building it anew. The systematic racism runs deep.

 

[Xando]

Again, you ignore the fact that investigators are necessary as well. Cops don't catch rapists in the act of raping, investigators already do that.

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So your solution is to rename cops into investigators?

 

[Heynongman!]

Abolition is not possible, no matter how many anarcho-theorists decide it is. We need to destroy our current system and rebuild it with as much input from as many minority voices as we can. Prisons need to be de-privatized and used as a means to rehabilitate criminals. Mental health facilities need to be bolstered to help with treatment of the criminally insane. Harmless drugs shouldn't be criminalized and most should be legalized, and harmful drug laws should only be enforced on the suppliers - make drug rehab an important piece of the pie. The police need to be trained to protect - not themselves but the community. Demilitarize the force, and enact stricter firearm laws so police primarily carry non-lethal weaponry like they do in other countries. Make white supremacy illegal.

 

[Quzar]

So your solution is to rename cops into investigators?

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No, because investigators aren't regularly in the street and armed to the teeth. They already serve their purpose and are an institution necessary for outliers like serial killers and rapists.

 

[BossAttack]

Reform.

Abolition is nonsense as neither the article nor videos linked can answer what replaces the police. Instead, at best, they merely come up with the amazing new idea of "trained community groups to deal with crime" ie the police.

 

[Samiya]

I also came across this video by Angela Davis that might shed some more light on the issue: