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Oct 26, 2017
3,938
These are definitely good points. My question would be, if they are forced to lower their cut, do we think other stores would have to as well? And if so, what happens to those companies that are no longer making enough to stay in the market? I don't see any way the government would require exactly one company to lower their store cut just because they make a higher profit than other companies in other areas.

I'd also love to see evidence that the 30% cut is far more than what is spent on everything it takes to run the store and maintain the platform/OS (which is in devs' best interests so they continue to have a place to sell their apps).

I'm not a lawyer, so my opinion means nothing but I would suspect the answer to your first question is no. In fact, I can't actually see a way that apple could be forced to lower their cut (by governmental means). AFAIK, the government doesn't typically mandate the costs of consumer goods and services. I think the only thing they could be forced to do would be to open up the iOS platform to developers who don't wish to use the App store. I.e allow other app stores onto the platform or other payment methods. The only way that would then result in them lowering their cut was if there was an exodus of developers to one of these new stores, and Apple needed to make their more attractive. You can see how this may have been possible if that was how iOS had worked from the very start, but considering how Titanic the App store is, I think any newcomers would just be crushed. Perhaps, with the exception of Epic who essentially just want an App store for fortnite and fortnite alone.

As for evidence, you're unlikely to find it as those internal costs are not made public. However, based on the size and how hands-off the store is, I would guess it maybe costs a few million a year to keep it all up. According to this article Apple says that last year they were able to take a cut from $61 Billion worth of transactions out of an overall $519 billion of overall revenue (The other stuff comes from ads, physical purchase like uber etc.) so at a rough esitmate -> 61* 0.3 = $18 Billion last year for Apple.

At those levels, you don't need to know the actual internals because there's no way the maintenance of that infrastructure costs close to 18 billion dollars a year.
 

Alvis

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,237
Spain
So Apple is basically willing to destroy thousands of people's lives by putting them out of a job in the middle of a pandemic in order to get "payback" on Epic for trying to circumvent their in app tax.
As someone who dislikes every single product Apple has ever made and Apple as a company in general: lmfao why are you reaching so hard
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,337
Regardless of what you feel about this Apple v Epic feud, opinions like this sounds very elitist. Yes, it is almost a necessity and a main access point to the world. In my country many kids need to walk uphill and climb a tree to get a phone signal to access study materials, all thanks to Covid moving everything to online learning. Even in normal, non-Covid situation, lots of job applications have moved to online only process, requiring you to have e-mail to access those job application sites.

In places where public computing infrastructure (like a library) is non-existent, a smartphone is the easiest device to access internet where broadband landlines are spotty and/or prohibitively expensive. For a lot of struggling people around the world, a smartphone is the only computing device available in their household that enables them to earn livelihood. They need smartphones to communicate with coworkers via Whatsapp, or sell their products and services via online marketplace.

And yes, we have many options available. For them, the only option available is the cheapest option. In many cases it's an $50 Android smartphone.


Fair point. But even then, there's a very wide array of 50 dollars Android smartphones. There are models on different ROMs, some with Google services, some without. And even then, nothing on Android prevents you from sideloading stuff. The thing is, even in this Android/iOS world, you have other options, including options within Android.
 

jawzpause

Member
Nov 7, 2017
2,245
And why would you support Epic? They are not fighting for you. They are fighting for their ability to make more money from you.
Regardless of Epic's intentions if they do win it'll be better for everybody. Apple are fighting to retain their large share. I have no idea why anyone would support Apple in this except for the fact that they just don't like Epic
 

fanboi

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,702
Sweden
It's not bullying is it? Doesn't every marketplace from PlayStation, Nintendo to Microsoft, google and Apple take a cut of online shop sales? They want to cut out the middle man and maintain 100% profit using somebody else's platform the greedy fucks.

Already made billions selling Shiite skins and dlc to 6 year old kids I've got zero sympathy for Epic.

I mean if that is what you see, you don't want to know what Google and Apple has enabled with the manufacturing processes...
 

LazyLain

Member
Jan 17, 2019
6,507
And why would you support Epic? They are not fighting for you. They are fighting for their ability to make more money from you.
Make more money from us, sure, but at Apple's expense rather than ours... and with the side effect of potentially benefitting all iOS developers and not just Epic.

So yeah, I do support Epic here, even if their motives aren't as altruistic as they like to make it seem.
 

Odesu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,548
Regardless of Epic's intentions if they do win it'll be better for everybody. Apple are fighting to retain their large share. I have no idea why anyone would support Apple in this except for the fact that they just don't like Epic

This is why this thread is so weird. Epic winning this is a net positive for literally everyone but Apple - most of all smaller devs. You dont have to like Epic or their Methods to still hope that, hey, would be great if indie devs were able to make a bit more money with their games.
 

Waffle

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,838
Breaks ToS and sues the company.. then they are upset that Apple won't let them make money off their platform? lol
 

Kaim Argonar

Member
Dec 8, 2017
2,276
Epic sowing: Haha fuck yeah!!! Yes!!
Epic reaping: Well this fucking sucks. What the fuck.

That said, I hope Apple gets hit hard by the EU.
 

jonamok

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,153
Feels like we need a poll (I have no idea how to set one up), something like:

Who do you support in this walled-garden battle royale?
A: Exploitative mighty trillionaire Apple
B: Exploitative plucky multi-billionaire Epic
C: I hope they destroy each other
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,381
Regardless of Epic's intentions if they do win it'll be better for everybody. Apple are fighting to retain their large share. I have no idea why anyone would support Apple in this except for the fact that they just don't like Epic

As others have pointed out, this ruling would have very wide reaching effects across not just the mobile but also the gaming industry and e-commerce and tech as a whole. It's honestly quite staggering. Like, we're talking things like the console business model as we know it potentially not being sustainable. Not to mention every company out there would have to make massive changes to their services, offerings, etc.

Not sure "198fornite" is the best way to be having this conversation.
 

boi

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,769
Don't most devs use Unity or some other tools on iOS. I have the impression Unreal is not used a lot on iOS.
 

Nawid

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
221
Feels like we need a poll (I have no idea how to set one up), something like:

Who do you support in this walled-garden battle royale?
A: Exploitative mighty trillionaire Apple
B: Exploitative plucky multi-billionaire Epic
C: I hope they destroy each other
I'm hoping for
D) Neither wins but Apple can no longer block apps like Xcloud and Hey.
 

KtSlime

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,910
Tokyo
Make more money from us, sure, but at Apple's expense rather than ours... and with the side effect of potentially benefitting all iOS developers and not just Epic.

So yeah, I do support Epic here, even if their motives aren't as altruistic as they like to make it seem.

Apple chooses to invest in graphics APIs and their GPU technology because gaming on iOS is popular, and they get a cut of those games/IAP sold on the platform that they can reinvest. If they aren't earning money from games, might as well invest in something else to put on that valuable SoC space that will.
 

jawzpause

Member
Nov 7, 2017
2,245
As others have pointed out, this ruling would have very wide reaching effects across not just the mobile but also the gaming industry and e-commerce and tech as a whole. It's honestly quite staggering. Like, we're talking things like the console business model as we know it potentially not being sustainable. Not to mention every company out there would have to make massive changes to their services, offerings, etc.

Not sure "198fornite" is the best way to be having this conversation.
You're absolutely right and maybe they could have gone about it in a different way however it is a conversation that needs to happen one way or another. I praise Epic for having the balls to do it and i wish the best of luck to them
 

Amnixia

▲ Legend ▲
The Fallen
Jan 25, 2018
10,436
Epic: you fool, you are yet to see my ultimate power
Apple stops Epic from using their tools and platforms
Epic: nani!?

That said, fuck em both.
 

LazyLain

Member
Jan 17, 2019
6,507
Apple chooses to invest in graphics APIs and their GPU technology because gaming on iOS is popular, and they get a cut of those games/IAP sold on the platform that they can reinvest. If they aren't earning money from games, might as well invest in something else to put on that valuable SoC space that will.
Reinvesting the absurd margins from IAP? Then where's the absurd margins from selling the hardware to consumers going?

But sure, I guess Apple is in a position where they can milk both consumers and developers.
 

SchroDingerzat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Sep 24, 2018
1,600
I'm not suggesting that additional digital storefronts be on consoles. However, I'm saying the option is already there.

You are also wrong in regards to digital games. I could go buy Stardew Valley digitally on Amazon for the Switch. Amazon will get a cut for that purchase, which is a lot better. There actually are storefronts where you can buy digital games for consoles. They are all around. And yes, while you still have to go to PSN or eshop or something, that money still goes to other retailers and storefronts. This means that it isn't monopolistic, because other storefronts can sell Nintendo, Sony, and MS games, and the choice of where is left to the consumer.

No other storefronts can make money off software for the app store. That is Apple, and Apple alone, and is uncompetitive.

In the case of Fortnite you can buy the vbucks on any other platform and they transfer across. Hell you can buy vbuck gift cards and redeem them online.

But we all know this is not about Fortnite. Epic want to make a separate store for games on any and all platforms.
 

Madjoki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,230
The fact is, this flat 30% model would never fly in a competitive market.

Steam says hi.

(though since you could always sell keys for free, but exactly the same, don't think Apple allows that).

Of course all steam competitors were really awful at the time, like having to pay extra fee for redownloads or gfwl having monthly payment for Multiplayer.

Even if your store had 0% cut developers don't come, EA tried this with origin for Kickstarter games (during first 90 days after game's launch).

Epic is playing significantly (tens of millinery) for developers not release at Steam at same time, because developers think it's worth paying the 30% to get access to their audience.

(Similarly on Android you can install apk but companies are still releasing on Play store.)
 

TooFriendly

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,030
It definitely shouldn't.

But if someone didn't want to put their stuff on that store and would rather pay for the infrastructure and distribution network themselves, then they should be able to.

Just like Levi's sells their clothes at JCPenney, Kohls, Amazon, and in their own stores, Epic, and anyone else for that matter, should have the option of distributing their IPAs directly to iOS users and handle the payments of any app not sourced from the App Store.

I meant the infrastructure and distribution of the machines that the apps are on.

JCPenney, Kohls etc do not have to carry Levi's products in the stores they made. That happens a lot in retail, so I think your analogy works in the opposite way that you mean, if I'm understanding you right.
 

Chris_Rivera

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
292
They're suing both Apple AND Google. Two separate ecosystems, apparently each of them a monopoly in the same market. The consumer's gain will be difficult to argue, saving on some kids vbuck habit is a interesting example.
 

Henrar

Member
Nov 27, 2017
1,915
I'm not suggesting that additional digital storefronts be on consoles. However, I'm saying the option is already there.

You are also wrong in regards to digital games. I could go buy Stardew Valley digitally on Amazon for the Switch. Amazon will get a cut for that purchase, which is a lot better. There actually are storefronts where you can buy digital games for consoles. They are all around. And yes, while you still have to go to PSN or eshop or something, that money still goes to other retailers and storefronts. This means that it isn't monopolistic, because other storefronts can sell Nintendo, Sony, and MS games, and the choice of where is left to the consumer.

No other storefronts can make money off software for the app store. That is Apple, and Apple alone, and is uncompetitive.
While this is true, you cannot release a game on a console without having to deal with respective manufacturer first. You have to pay for access, you have to pay royalties for boxed copies. This isn't that much different from Apple's model.
 

dock

Game Designer
Verified
Nov 5, 2017
1,373
Reminder: video games are built on fragile frameworks, tools and target platforms that regularly fail or become inaccessible due to the whims and squabbles of multi-billion corporations. Predicting whether the rug will be swept from beneath you is crushing.

I've spent years working on games that can no longer be played.
 

Cuburger

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,975
As others have pointed out, this ruling would have very wide reaching effects across not just the mobile but also the gaming industry and e-commerce and tech as a whole. It's honestly quite staggering. Like, we're talking things like the console business model as we know it potentially not being sustainable. Not to mention every company out there would have to make massive changes to their services, offerings, etc.

Not sure "198fornite" is the best way to be having this conversation.
I don't know, I feel like claiming it could destroy "the console business as we know it" is fearmongering. There is a difference between smart phones and the ubiquity that the iPhone has and that of a game console. Consoles have physical games still, while smart phones have to buy things digitally, and in the case of the iPhone, you must go through the App store.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,494
Regardless of Epic's intentions if they do win it'll be better for everybody. Apple are fighting to retain their large share. I have no idea why anyone would support Apple in this except for the fact that they just don't like Epic

Who's everybody? You'll pay 10% less in MTX, hooray. These changes won't benefit "the developers", either. This is Epic the publisher, the corporate entity, who's reaping the benefits of your wanting to give them money. Johnny Codemonkey from Engineering won't see a dime from this. But Tim Sweeney's account? Ka-ching!

Why someone wouldn't support Epic? Wonder why...

Make more money from us, sure, but at Apple's expense rather than ours... and with the side effect of potentially benefitting all iOS developers and not just Epic.

So yeah, I do support Epic here, even if their motives aren't as altruistic as they like to make it seem.

Don't forget weaponizing their mostly teenage (and tween!) userbase to "fight" for them! /s

Things don't need to be either/or. I get not supporting Apple, but it's also a completely valid option to say: "I don't support Epic because the way they are going about this is completely messed up". The end does not always justify the means, you know. Whatever Epic does that ends up "benefitting" you is a by-product of their own 100% developer-focused goals: they want to make more money. From Apple and from you, since offering lower-priced MTX will incentivize people to spend more on them, under the perceived notion of "value".

Going to bat for either megacorporation is... odd, to say the least. But defending Epic for being "pro-consumer" is in another level of oddity, if you ask me.
 

savageturnip

Member
Oct 28, 2017
266
I don't know, I feel like claiming it could destroy "the console business as we know it" is fearmongering. There is a difference between smart phones and the ubiquity that the iPhone has and that of a game console. Consoles have physical games still, while smart phones have to buy things digitally, and in the case of the iPhone, you must go through the App store.

Given the state of bricks and mortar retail and the ever increasing digital share that console platforms are seeing it will not be too long before we see all digital platforms, at least in some regions. We aren't talking about XSX and PS5 here but if Epic win this legal battle you can be sure that by the time the next consoles are on the horizon you'll have publishers wanting their own storefronts on all major consoles and legally.. they may not be able to say no.
 

jawzpause

Member
Nov 7, 2017
2,245
Who's everybody? You'll pay 10% less in MTX, hooray. These changes won't benefit "the developers", either. This is Epic the publisher, the corporate entity, who's reaping the benefits of your wanting to give them money. Johnny Codemonkey from Engineering won't see a dime from this. But Tim Sweeney's account? Ka-ching!

Why someone wouldn't support Epic? Wonder why...



Don't forget weaponizing their mostly teenage (and tween!) userbase to "fight" for them! /s

Things don't need to be either/or. I get not supporting Apple, but it's also a completely valid option to say: "I don't support Epic because the way they are going about this is completely messed up". The end does not always justify the means, you know. Whatever Epic does that ends up "benefitting" you is a by-product of their own 100% developer-focused goals: they want to make more money. From Apple and from you, since offering lower-priced MTX will incentivize people to spend more on them, under the perceived notion of "value".

Going to bat for either megacorporation is... odd, to say the least. But defending Epic for being "pro-consumer" is in another level of oddity, if you ask me.
False, it will benefit developers. It will change the whole landscape of gaming in fact, with developers potentially getting a larger cut.

I'll say it again, Apple wins then nothing changes, Epic wins and it'll have a knock on effect that could change the whole industry, giving larger percentage cuts to developers of all kinds. Who cares what Epic's intentions are, if developers and consumers benefit then everyone should be in support of them
 

Mg.

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,982
I'm hoping for
D) Neither wins but Apple can no longer block apps like Xcloud and Hey.
E) Apple (and other storefronts) lower their cut %.

Even going from 30% to 20% would be a big win for developers. Depending on country, after taxes et al a developer may end up receiving less than 50% of their products price.
 

TheMadTitan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,263
I meant the infrastructure and distribution of the machines that the apps are on.

JCPenney, Kohls etc do not have to carry Levi's products in the stores they made. That happens a lot in retail, so I think your analogy works in the opposite way that you mean, if I'm understanding you right.
Of course they don't have to carry the product, just like Apple doesn't have to carry or distribute Epic's software.

My point is, companies will often have their stuff in a bunch of outlets while also operating a direct to consumer outlet themselves, however large or small. Apple having an App Store should not prevent an end user from going to Epic.com and downloading Fortnite.ipa to install on their phone.

Going through Apple would provide you with ease of purchases, going through Epic would give the end user the ability to be less dependent on Apple. Considering that iOS is going to eventually supplant macOS at some point, iOS not providing the same level of user flexibility in regards to what they install, how they install, and how they make their software purchases is restrictive and shouldn't exist.

There's no reason why Epic can't have an app on the store and an app on their website. There's no reason why users can't have the option of (permanently and) conveniently sideloading apps to their phone or tablet without hacking them.
 

Arebours

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,656
but companies make deal. if epic signed a deal with apple on apple terms(whatever legal documents named) aren't they obligated to honor it?
Deals can be unfair, especially when the other party is the biggest company in the world. This is why we have antitrust laws.

Breach of contract is contract law as defined by each country
Just because something is in a ToS doesn't mean it will hold up in court.
 

pagrab

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,007
I am really disappointed in this. Some of you act as if it was just a fun battle of giants, but in reality, a lot of people will get screwed over this. The devs may need to cancel their projects, people who wait for cool games on iOS may not get them and kids in poorer families or families who do not buy consoles for principal reasons may not be able to play their favorite game. Just because two extremely rich companies couldn't stand the way they split their giant incomes.
 

savageturnip

Member
Oct 28, 2017
266
False, it will benefit developers. It will change the whole landscape of gaming in fact, with developers potentially getting a larger cut.

I'll say it again, Apple wins then nothing changes, Epic wins and it'll have a knock on effect that could change the whole industry, giving larger percentage cuts to developers of all kinds. Who cares what Epic's intentions are, if developers and consumers benefit then everyone should be in support of them

Or it could end up with multiple publishers with storefronts offering cuts between 10-25% lets say, unfortunately it then cuts the potential market share into a fraction of what it once was. You'll then have a race to the bottom on game prices to get any sort of reach to your customers devaluing the developers games and making it much more difficulty to justify funding for further projects.

While it may be beneficial to consumers pockets - in some areas, if it devalues indie developers games and boosts the sales of publishers main hitters i'm not sure that's a gaming landscape that is good for developers and consumers.

People love to tear into Game Pass for devaluing games, specifically indie games but this case could do far more damage in the long term.
 

TwoPikachus

Member
Nov 15, 2018
201
Both companies are garbage, but for those of us who have invested years into development with unreal engine, losing access to the iOS audience is enormously devastating. Not to mention workflows like using the iPhone depth camera to do facial motion capture in ue4, what will happen with that?

Ban fortnite if you want Apple, I don't give a shit. But you choose to mess with my livelihood for your petty squabble with epic.

If you value the livelihood of indie developers, you do not support Apple's move here. Fuck epic's bullshit, I don't care, but this has crossed the line now into hurting Innocents just to protect their 30%. That is beyond disgusting.
 

Deleted member 10193

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,127
It's not bullying is it? Doesn't every marketplace from PlayStation, Nintendo to Microsoft, google and Apple take a cut of online shop sales? They want to cut out the middle man and maintain 100% profit using somebody else's platform the greedy fucks.

Already made billions selling Shiite skins and dlc to 6 year old kids I've got zero sympathy for Epic.
You can buy Playstation/Xbox/Switch games from anywhere, they don't force you to only use their store.

Apple has a locked down ecosystem. If you make an app you HAVE to use their store. There is no alternate store. There is no way of sideloading apps without jailbreaking. You HAVE to accept the 30% skim off the top if you want your app on IOS. Sounds like mob tactics to me.

This is bigger than Epic. Microsoft can't have the Xcloud app in the store because Apple wont get a 30% cut of games bought on the Microsoft store to use in the app.

If this were Microsoft there would be an antitrust suit slapped on them so quickly.
 

degauss

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,631
The notable difference is, as Sweeney himself noted, console makers (well, MS and Sony, at least) sell their products at a $50 per-unit loss (at least in the launch window). Apple sells iPhones at a 500% (5x) markup compared to cost. Mobile apps are extra revenue on top.

Now, I'm with you in that it's pure unadulterated greed on Epic's part. They know Apple users tend to spend way more and way more often on mobile apps than Android users (I think a common breakdown was 70/30 iOS/Android), so even an extra 10% (if, say Apple would reduce the cut from 30% to 20%) would be a shitload of money.

Apple don't make 500% markup. That is an insane stat to throw out. Did you accidentally type an extra 0?

Looking at their overall earnings you can see they make good profits (~35% profit last time I looked), so it's believable they make 50% (or a tad more) on certain specific phones, at certain times, maybe.

But 500% is an insane number that just doesn't add up unless you are looking at the BOM as something like "quantity of raw plastic, metal and sand"
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,833
Amount of people supporting Apple in here is sad
I mean, Apple is literally the biggest brand in the world, with some of the best known products. How Epic thought they'd easily win a PR fight against them is beyond me. People out here throwing thousands of dollars around each year to get marginally improved devices each year. What does Epic got? Fortnite? Those things just don't compete.

Maybe their PR success with the Epic Game Store and Steam, where they quickly got to dominate the news with BS arguments, got to their heads and now they thought they could try the same with bigger targets.

This entire thing can literally only end two ways: either Epic caves and crawls back to the AppStore and actually abides by its rules again, or they simply lose their mobile business for good. And frankly, any decent, and honest lawyer (an oxymoron I suppose) would have told Tim Sweeney this from the beginning. Such a pointless self-own.
 

fourfourfun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,698
England
But sure, I guess Apple is in a position where they can milk both consumers and developers.

Epic's play isn't just to get its store out there, it is to own the entire horizontal slice from dev to publish and operate. Once they get there, they have the ability to make it absolutely untenable to not use their engine, store... the entire lot. It is why they are so upset at the market situation, it prevents them from establishing their own monopoly.
 

Arebours

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,656
Or it could end up with multiple publishers with storefronts offering cuts between 10-25% lets say, unfortunately it then cuts the potential market share into a fraction of what it once was. You'll then have a race to the bottom on game prices to get any sort of reach to your customers devaluing the developers games and making it much more difficulty to justify funding for further projects.

While it may be beneficial to consumers pockets - in some areas, if it devalues indie developers games and boosts the sales of publishers main hitters i'm not sure that's a gaming landscape that is good for developers and consumers.

People love to tear into Game Pass for devaluing games, specifically indie games but this case could do far more damage in the long term.
nothing preventing that from happening now. I don't think your reasoning for why it would happen holds up.

apple made 50 billion from app store last year. their expenses are maybe a few billion. in a competitive market those kind of margins don't exist. it's massive rent seeking and abuse of market position.

it's really bizarre to argue that consumers and developers benefit from apple making 50 billion per year on their store tax.