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MaulerX

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,696
Why the hell did valve get dragged into this lol


Not sure what Apple is trying to get at since Valve own one of many store-fronts on PC. Even MS's own Windows store is just one of many stores.

I suppose the judge might say to Apple "See, there are many storefronts on PC that are successful and profitable. Why don't you allow the same on iOS?"
 

AzzX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15

Good find, a strange one, It's like Apple see 3rd Party Storefronts like Humble Bundle as irrelevant. Regardless Steam would be seen as a 3rd party storefront if they were able to launch on an Apple device, just like they can in Windows and Linux or any open system.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,257
Apple and Epic are irredeemable shit hole companies so I hope they destroy each other. While I do like Steam, I don't really care for Valve so fuck em too.
 
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dex3108

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,684
Epic wants to take testimony from a senior executive at online-dating company Match Group Inc., the owner of Tinder and other apps, as well as a former Apple executive that the iPhone maker has suggested it cannot locate. The company's lawyers are also set to question Apple Chief Executive Tim Cook in a multi-hour deposition.

Apple has subpoenaed Sony Corp., Microsoft Corp., Nintendo Co., Amazon.com Inc. and Samsung Electronics Co. The latest skirmish came Wednesday as Valve Corp., one of the largest computer-game distributors in the world, cried foul to a federal judge in California over Apple's expansive pretrial effort to subpoena its privately held financial records of its offerings.

www.livemint.com

Fight between ‘Fortnite’ creator and Apple reels in more tech players

Computer-game distributor Valve is the latest to be pressured into playing a role in a legal battle over app-store fees; ‘it’s not just you’
 

Tovarisc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,484
FIN
What are the odds that Tim Epic knew this thing would balloon like this and everything is going to the plan or is this thing running away from Epic's control?
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,095
I understand that and still think it's unreasonable. I'm curious what sort of precedent there is to compel uninvolved third parties to provide sensitive business data. No idea if this is "common" or not.
Are you fucking kidding me. Someone needs to slap that judge right upside the head.

This request is absolutely overreaching. How can a lawsuit between two companies drag a completely unrelated company into the fold and force that company to release confidential business information that can and will absolutely be used against them in the future.

Itd be like if two drink manufacturers sued each other, then subpoenaed Coca-Cola and forced them to open their vault and release their secret original recipe.

This is not uncommon. Yes, you can get a judge to subpoena a totally uninvolved third party to disclose data in a suit they are not apart of. I'm sure the article touches in this, but while its not easy it can be done. You simply need to prove the evidence is necessary/relevant for your suit, reasonable, and that you cannot acquire the evidence through other means.


As the Apple-Epic suit has to do with competition abd sales percentage of digital sales in the game space, the only people that would have the data to show an industry norm would be others in the same space such as Vale, Sony, and MS. It would be impossible for Apple to acquire such evidence unless it came from those competitors so the subpoena is allowed.
 

PC-tan

Member
Feb 25, 2018
1,321
I guess that Epic opened a whole can of worms. Seeing how now Sony,MS and Nintendo are involved now
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
www.livemint.com

Fight between ‘Fortnite’ creator and Apple reels in more tech players

Computer-game distributor Valve is the latest to be pressured into playing a role in a legal battle over app-store fees; ‘it’s not just you’

I knew this would drag in the console makers. I didn't think of Amazon but I sort of get it even though it's an even bigger reach than the other four. But Samsung? That feels really off.

Regardless of how people might think Apple's lawyers will keep such data to themselves and not share it with the rest of Apple I see this as very naïve.
 

toy_brain

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,207
What are the odds that Tim Epic knew this thing would balloon like this and everything is going to the plan or is this thing running away from Epic's control?
The case was always a publicity stunt first, and an actual well-thought-out legal battle waaaaaaaay second.
I dunno about going 'to the plan', but the direction its now taken is probably more than he ever hoped for.
He wants as much dirty laundry aired as possible, because it only serves to benefit him. Apple demanding this info from Valve is playing right into his hands.
 
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dex3108

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,684
I knew this would drag in the console makers. I didn't think of Amazon but I sort of get it even though it's an even bigger reach than the other four. But Samsung? That feels really off.

Regardless of how people might think Apple's lawyers will keep such data to themselves and not share it with the rest of Apple I see this as very naïve.

Samsung has AppStore too.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,050
www.macrumors.com

Valve Ordered to Give Apple Information on 436 Steam Games As Part of Epic Games Legal Case

Valve, the makers behind popular game distribution platform Steam, will be forced to hand over aggregate historical sales, price, and other...

Request largely granted, and going by the judge's comments there are more to come.

Epic must have known all platform holders would end up dragged into a lawsuit like this, there's so much at stake, so maybe they hoped Apple would have conceded by now?



... holy fuck
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
Samsung app store is the second biggest app store in Android because all Samsung phones have it preinstalled and Samsung is the biggest/second biggest phone manufacturer.

Samsung being the biggest phone developer is obvious and well known just like EA is the biggest third party publisher. It doesn't mean their stores are worth shit compared to Google/Apple and Nintendo/Playstation. You have to quantify how big of share Smasung really has in terms of app store revenue and downloads.

The case was always a publicity stunt first, and an actual well-thought-out legal battle waaaaaaaay second.
I dunno about going 'to the plan', but the direction its now taken is probably more than he ever hoped for.
He wants as much dirty laundry aired as possible, because it only serves to benefit him. Apple demanding this info from Valve is playing right into his hands.

Nah. He hired a law team that is well versed in anti-trust law. He was always serious but he couldn't contain himself without doing something theatrical.
 

toy_brain

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,207
Nah. He hired a law team that is well versed in anti-trust law. He was always serious but he couldn't contain himself without doing something theatrical.
Back when this Apple vs Epic case was first getting going, I used to listen to the Hoeg Law analysis of each parties legal filings. It was, like, a daily thing. Perfect for my commute to work.
Epics arguments were always really....... err....'novel' I guess would be the word. Like, their entire case is (in the eyes of Hoeg Law at least) exceptionally flimsy and its amazing its gotten as far as it has.
Add in the ready-to-go #Freefortnite campaign and the whole thing stinks of a publicity stunt masquerading as a legal battle.
Sure he hired decent lawyers. Might as well make a go of it, seeings as Epic has money to burn, and the longer it drags on the more publicity they get.

I mean, in the interest of being diplomatic (because I already gave the hornets nest a good hard kick earlier on in this thread, so I don't really need to get into another argument), I could say that its both. And its A LOT of both!
 
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dex3108

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,684
Samsung being the biggest phone developer is obvious and well known just like EA is the biggest third party publisher. It doesn't mean their stores are worth shit compared to Google/Apple and Nintendo/Playstation. You have to quantify how big of share Smasung really has in terms of app store revenue and downloads.



Nah. He hired a law team that is well versed in anti-trust law. He was always serious but he couldn't contain himself without doing something theatrical.

Apple is going after everything so they can prepare best defense. And that includes even Samsung Galaxy Store (where Fortnite is still available).
 
Oct 30, 2017
15,278
Apple previously sought data from more than 30,000 games before narrowing it to 436 that are available on both Epic and Valve's digital stores, including "Grand Theft Auto V." Valve complained, in part, about the heavy burden placed on its 350 employees, based in Bellevue, Wash., of pulling such records.

Apple is screwed when they have to wait in Valve time for these records.
 

Doc Kelso

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,171
NYC
For the layman, is this a good thing for Apple or Epic? From a completely ignorant perspective, it seems that Apple is making enemies of literally everyone in an effort to bolster their case. Is this even semi-accurate?
 

justiceiro

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
6,664
LMAO, this shit will be so fun to check out. This has been so entertaining and much more to come.
 

Tagyhag

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,593
Wow, it's shocking to me that Valve still hasn't passed the 400 employee mark.

Joke about Valve time all you want but they do a LOT for a company smaller than some video game studios that literally focus on just 1 game every 4-5 years.
 

Aether

Member
Jan 6, 2018
4,421
100% this.

Nobody should be cheerleading Valve's ability to hide potentially massive corporate profits.
I use Steam as much as everybody else here, but something tells me that if their finances ever did become available (as is the case with publicly-traded companies, which Apple is, and Valve is not), a lot of people would be looking at their profits and asking "Ok, and what the fuck are you doing just sitting on that massive pile of cash?"
Dont people do that already?

One point here is that its not only valves data, is data that those developers gave valve under the asumption that it stays undisclosed?
It includes third party data and i find that scary, thats all im saying.
 

toy_brain

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,207
Dont people do that already?
Honestly, I've not seen it bought up a whole ton, especially not relative to how much money people assume they have.
I hesitate to dive back in and give the hornets nest yet another good hard kick, having done it enough already in this thread, but I do think there is some kind of psychological difference between assuming a company has loads of money, and seeing the actual number written down and confirmed.
Apple, Amazon and Google are all in the headlines almost daily due to their large swaths of cash. Valve seems to fly under the radar most of the time.
Or maybe I'm not reading the right articles? I dunno. Matters of perception like these are all a bit subjective. Its not really a hill I'm going to die on, so If you've read a good number of articles etc that question Gabe/Valve's billions, then fair enough.

One point here is that its not only valves data, is data that those developers gave valve under the asumption that it stays undisclosed?
It includes third party data and i find that scary, thats all im saying.
Fair point I guess, though I'd argue its up to the developers to then justify those profits. In theory, their 70% cut of what they made on Steam should be justified by development costs, a fair-to-generous salary, and re-investing into their next game. If a developer is just profiteering then that's their own moral hazard to deal with as and when the facts come out.
The agreement does also work both ways, with some (possibly quite a few) publishers wanting to release sales statistics, but being NDA'd from doing so by Valve.'s terms.

Also Apple might not disclose all those details publicly once they are handed the info. Though at this point, given how proceeding have gone, I kinda expect them to take all the info they are given and shove it wholesale into the appendix of a publicly-filed court document just because - y'know - if yer airing dirty laundry, might as well air it all right?
 

Aether

Member
Jan 6, 2018
4,421
Honestly, I've not seen it bought up a whole ton, especially not relative to how much money people assume they have.
I hesitate to dive back in and give the hornets nest yet another good hard kick, having done it enough already in this thread, but I do think there is some kind of psychological difference between assuming a company has loads of money, and seeing the actual number written down and confirmed.
Apple, Amazon and Google are all in the headlines almost daily due to their large swaths of cash. Valve seems to fly under the radar most of the time.
Or maybe I'm not reading the right articles? I dunno. Matters of perception like these are all a bit subjective. Its not really a hill I'm going to die on, so If you've read a good number of articles etc that question Gabe/Valve's billions, then fair enough.
Yeah, not much against your point. I just dont expect people to start seing it different when they get the numbers, simply because: people still argue for game price increases and microtransaction and bad practices beause "games got more expensive" while knowing how much those publsihers earned and how much money is paid in CEO salaries and how much taxes are evadet.

Maybe im just pessimistic.
Fair point I guess, though I'd argue its up to the developers to then justify those profits. In theory, their 70% cut of what they made on Steam should be justified by development costs, a fair-to-generous salary, and re-investing into their next game. If a developer is just profiteering then that's their own moral hazard to deal with as and when the facts come out.
The agreement does also work both ways, with some (possibly quite a few) publishers wanting to release sales statistics, but being NDA'd from doing so by Valve.'s terms.

Also Apple might not disclose all those details publicly once they are handed the info. Though at this point, given how proceeding have gone, I kinda expect them to take all the info they are given and shove it wholesale into the appendix of a publicly-filed court document just because - y'know - if yer airing dirty laundry, might as well air it all right?
I mean im all for more transparency. But as long as we operate in that system (smaller) depelopers need all help and protection when its about bargaining against the big ones, and with open cards they are lacking one of those tools.
Data privacy laws are partially to help against the acumulation of data/knowledge and exploitation of those that dont.

I truly hope apple does not disclose specific details (like for concrete developers), but who knows.

The point with valves NDA is a valid and good one that i did not think about.
 

Twister

Member
Feb 11, 2019
5,090
I hope Valve and Apple destroy Epic so badly that they can't even continue their business. Sick of their anti-consumer bullshit. Go get 'em Tim Cook
 

fourfourfun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,713
England
While EGS is what it is... Unreal Engine would be a huge loss for developers and AFAIK been very pro consumers in the end.

It is at the moment, but I'm a little wary of Epic trying to position themselves as the entire dev to publishing/store pipeline. If they control the entire horizontal slice, they can quickly architect other software out in the cold. At some point, they could make it uncommercial to not use the entire horizontal slice, which means make your games in Unreal and publish to their store only. Which is why they want the can of worms open on the stores, as it is the only place where they cannot control on some platforms. On the consumer side, it'll always stay friendly, but on the dev/publisher side, it'll be Epic's way or the highway.
 

dude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,650
Tel Aviv
It is at the moment, but I'm a little wary of Epic trying to position themselves as the entire dev to publishing/store pipeline. If they control the entire horizontal slice, they can quickly architect other software out in the cold. At some point, they could make it uncommercial to not use the entire horizontal slice, which means make your games in Unreal and publish to their store only. Which is why they want the can of worms open on the stores, as it is the only place where they cannot control on some platforms. On the consumer side, it'll always stay friendly, but on the dev/publisher side, it'll be Epic's way or the highway.
Yeah, I'm with you 100%.
I'm very conflicted, on the one hand I desperately want Apple to lose this case and open their platform, on the other hand I desperately don't want Epic to win it.
 
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Acidote

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,983
I hope Valve and Apple destroy Epic so badly that they can't even continue their business. Sick of their anti-consumer bullshit. Go get 'em Tim Cook

As someone who is completely opposed to the way they are running their store, please no.

I just want them competing without doing those practices.
 

fanboi

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,702
Sweden
It is at the moment, but I'm a little wary of Epic trying to position themselves as the entire dev to publishing/store pipeline. If they control the entire horizontal slice, they can quickly architect other software out in the cold. At some point, they could make it uncommercial to not use the entire horizontal slice, which means make your games in Unreal and publish to their store only. Which is why they want the can of worms open on the stores, as it is the only place where they cannot control on some platforms. On the consumer side, it'll always stay friendly, but on the dev/publisher side, it'll be Epic's way or the highway.

Isn't this similiar to what Apple is now having? As in their storefront that is?