AP - Barr OKs election probes despite little evidence of fraud

Latvian Hitman · Nov 10, 2020

heathen earth said:
This is actually making me really nervous. I sad before the election that Trump's goal here would be to sue and sue again and eventually get his lawsuits in front of the friendly Supreme Court, which would hand the presidency to him. Is there any real reason that I shouldn't be worried about this?

Absolutely, yes. There's been a parade of election law experts & lawyers who have tried cases before state/federal supreme courts that have appeared on news programs in the last week & they've been unified in their opinion that this tactic is extremely unlikely to go anywhere.

Secret Squirrel · Nov 10, 2020

Blah · Nov 10, 2020

heathen earth said:
This is actually making me really nervous. I sad before the election that Trump's goal here would be to sue and sue again and eventually get his lawsuits in front of the friendly Supreme Court, which would hand the presidency to him. Is there any real reason that I shouldn't be worried about this?

It's entirely reasonable to be nervous, I would say everybody is to some extent, but it's important to remember that the Supreme Court (any court for that matter) doesn't *find* evidence of fraud.

Courts aren't use to find anything, they judge based on evidence, and so far Republicans haven't remotely found a single shred of evidence that hasn't been instantaneously debunked because there is no fraud. That'd have to build a case that there is massive voter fraud enough to sway and delegitimize an entire election across 5-6 states but they can't even find one instance of it. Every single state's court has literally laughed them out of the building.

We're well beyond a Gore-Bush situation that Republicans keep grasping to happen.

mopinks · Nov 10, 2020

yeah I'm infinitely more worried about trump's supporters doing something unhinged than I am about the courts entertaining his clown show

lunarworks · Nov 10, 2020

Belvedere said:
At every single opportunity to forge a path to decency, the republicans take the low road. How the fuck is that party ever going to recover?

They have a zero-sum mindset. Everything has to have a winner and a loser, and decency is for losers.

Jag · Nov 10, 2020

Belvedere said:
At every single opportunity to forge a path to decency, the republicans take the low road. How the fuck is that party ever going to recover?

They aren't. This is the new normal and at least 71M Americans are fine with it.

Deleted member 2145 · Nov 10, 2020

you don't have to lose your minds but there's a healthy middle ground of concern that some of yall are spending too much energy condescendingly pushing back against rather than, yaknow, spending it on the actual worrisome thing happening in plain sight

Blah · Nov 10, 2020

phanphare said:
you don't have to lose your minds but there's a healthy middle ground of concern that some of yall are spending too much energy condescendingly pushing back against rather than, yaknow, spending it on the actual worrisome thing happening in plain sight

The most frustrating thing is the media not doing their jobs and letting the public know it's all complete bullshit. Again, they're complicit in another Trump scheme and it's ridiculous that they continue to prop him up and giving him a voice instead of burying him in the truth.

Zen · Nov 10, 2020

Yo if Trump and his goons succeed in their bullshit we are literally going to have a civil war on our hands, because I don't think flagrantly throwing away the will of the electorate and declaring himself the ruler is going to slide. Also fuck anybody telling people to sit down over this.

SneakyBadger · Nov 10, 2020

daveo42 said:
I would say probably the biggest riots the US has ever seen in its history. That'd be something to actually go to war for.

Absolutely. The BLM protests this year were the biggest in American history. Imagine what would happen if people's votes were overturned.

Kidgalactus · Nov 10, 2020

Latvian Hitman said:
Absolutely, yes. There's been a parade of election law experts & lawyers who have tried cases before state/federal supreme courts that have appeared on news programs in the last week & they've been unified in their opinion that this tactic is extremely unlikely to go anywhere.

This Era has defied experts time, and again.

While my hope is that you're right, there's no such think as being too wary when powerful people are openly looking for weaknesses to explore in order to cease power.

Deleted member 2145 · Nov 10, 2020

remember when trump told the proud boys to stand by

I bet they're standing by

III-V · Nov 10, 2020

this is fine

Latvian Hitman · Nov 10, 2020

Kidgalactus said:
This Era has defied experts time, and again.

While my hope is that you're right, there's no such think as being too wary when powerful people are openly looking for weaknesses to explore in order to cease power.

I mean, some people are going to worry themselves sick no matter what. Anyone who is worried about SCOTUS overturning hundreds of thousands of votes across 4 states at the behest of a legal team who thus far has proven unable to even properly file cases at the state level is likely going to find plenty to worry about even after January 20th.

The play by the GOP here seems pretty obvious. They're terrified by the prospect of more widely accepted mail-in voting. They realize full well (even if Trump does not) that they're not going to reverse the results of this election. Their intention is to cast doubt about mail-in voting in general because it presents an existential threat to them at the presidential level going forward. They're going to attack the process until they can get it changed, and their goal is to get it changed in as many states as possible prior to 2024.

Chirotera · Nov 10, 2020

Latvian Hitman said:
Absolutely, yes. There's been a parade of election law experts & lawyers who have tried cases before state/federal supreme courts that have appeared on news programs in the last week & they've been unified in their opinion that this tactic is extremely unlikely to go anywhere.

If Trump goes to the Supreme Court and they undermine the will of the people, this country will burn. Full stop.

UltraMav · Nov 10, 2020

Blah said:
The most frustrating thing is the media not doing their jobs and letting the public know it's all complete bullshit. Again, they're complicit in another Trump scheme and it's ridiculous that they continue to prop him up and giving him a voice instead of burying him in the truth.

I often hear this refrain but every time I see coverage of Trump's fuckery they reiterate that it is baseless.

Sho_Nuff82 · Nov 10, 2020

III-V said:
this is fine

Can't have a transition if there's no executive staff.

Deleted member 896 · Nov 10, 2020

UltraMav said:
I often hear this refrain but every time I see coverage of Trump's fuckery they reiterate that it is baseless.

Yeah. I don't know what you're reading/watching/listening to that is playing along with anything. Anything I consume (that isn't me intentionally going to the fringe trash sites out of my own morbid curiosity) is calling Biden the president elect and repeatedly noting that all of Trump's allegations of fraud come with zero proof. Anything that I follow that analyzes "what's next" will look at stuff like the current litigation or the Barr memo and have noted that most everyone agrees that these are Hail Mary plays. To read the post you responded to you'd think that the news media was backing down and taking a cautious "wait-and-see" approach due to backlash from Trumpers. They aren't.

III-V · Nov 10, 2020

conservative radio not coping well

surprising reach from this guy, from Wikipedia:

As a commentator and analyst, Josh Bernstein has been featured by multiple publications including Forbes,[7] Newsmax,[8] The Dove,[9] The Atlantic,[10] One America News Network, PIJN News,[11] and the USA Today magazine (not related to the USA Today newspaper).[12] In addition, Bernstein has also been a contributor to Breitbart News, Mediaequalizer.com,[13] and The Daily Wire.[14]

Latvian Hitman · Nov 10, 2020

Chirotera said:
If Trump goes to the Supreme Court and they undermine the will of the people, this country will burn. Full stop.

It's much ado about nothing. You can't just "go" to the supreme court. You have to work your way there by proving you have cases with enough merit and implications that go beyond what district/state courts can settle. Thus far, Trump's team isn't even in that universe, let alone ballpark. Claims of widespread fraud absent any evidence are a non-starter in any courtroom at any level with any judge, no matter how partisan.

daveo42 · Nov 10, 2020

Latvian Hitman said:
It's much ado about nothing. You can't just "go" to the supreme court. You have to work your way there by proving you have cases with enough merit and implications that go beyond what district/state courts can settle. Thus far, Trump's team isn't even in that universe, let alone ballpark. Claims of widespread fraud absent any evidence are a non-starter in any courtroom at any level with any judge, no matter how partisan.

Pretty much. If there was actual evidence of widespread voter fraud, then the legal team would have a leg to stand on. Saying mail-in voting is illegal kills any of these lawsuits immediately. This is 100% a tactic to rile up Trump's base, instigate violence, and increase fundraising to Trump so he can pay off his campaign debts.

Cire · Nov 10, 2020

I don't think Trump's team is trying to actually win any cases in the courts on merit. He's trying to delay states certifying the results until after Jan 20th in which case it would go to the House and he'd presumably wins. Even though places like PA already stated they would vote for whomever won the popular vote, that does not mean they have to vote for anyone if they can just say it could be fraudulent.

Trump is playing a delay game, hoping it gets to SCOTUS too late for them to make a decision in time. Everyone laughing at how meritless his case is may be missing what his actual plan is. Now the likelihood of this working is low, but I don't think it's impossible; so I think it would be better to prepare for that possibility instead of being blindsided and realizing we don't have enough time in late December.

CrichtonKicks · Nov 10, 2020

Cire said:
I don't think Trump's team is trying to actually win any cases in the courts on merit. He's trying to delay states certifying the results until after Jan 20th in which case it would go to the House and he'd presumably wins. Even though places like PA already stated they would vote for whomever won the popular vote, that does not mean they have to vote for anyone if they can just say it could be fraudulent.

That doesn't happen without an injunction. Unless their evidence jumps up exponentially in quality they aren't going to get an injunction.

UltraMav · Nov 10, 2020

I think all the hooplah around this is silly simply because Trump getting away with stealing the election means a legit civil war.

Maybe I'm naive, but I know what I'm doing if this happens. I can't be alone.

Latvian Hitman · Nov 10, 2020

Cire said:
I don't think Trump's team is trying to actually win any cases in the courts on merit. He's trying to delay states certifying the results until after Jan 20th in which case it would go to the House and he'd presumably wins. Even though places like PA already stated they would vote for whomever won the popular vote, that does not mean they have to vote for anyone if they can just say it could be fraudulent.

Trump is playing a delay game, hoping it gets to SCOTUS too late for them to make a decision in time. Everyone laughing at how meritless his case is may be missing what his actual plan is. Now the likelihood of this working is low, but I don't think it's impossible; so I think it would be better to prepare for that possibility instead of being blindsided and realizing we don't have enough time in late December.

You contradict yourself here, though. If these cases have no merit, then he's got zero chance to get anything before SCOTUS, full stop. As they currently stand, these cases won't even make it out of the parking garage.

Kibbles · Nov 10, 2020

Is it unprecedented for them to look into voter fraud? Seems like this is really no big deal and likely standard practice no? I know Barr is a Trump stooge and will only fuel the flames so it sucks but I mean, isn't it obvious they will look into election fraud every election?

I'm sure they'll find shit but not enough to overturn the election

night814 · Nov 10, 2020

entremet said:
Yeah, that's my big concern. The GOP is playing politics while eroding trust in the process. They are scum.

It's mostly affecting their on voters though, Democrats and independents haven't been swayed at all and Republicans involved in the voting process have been very clear that the process is run well and has no evidence of fraud. Let Republicans think their votes don't matter

super etrian odyssey · Nov 10, 2020

Kibbles said:
Is it unprecedented for them to look into voter fraud? Seems like this is really no big deal and likely standard practice no? I know Barr is a Trump stooge and will only fuel the flames so it sucks but I mean, isn't it obvious they will look into election fraud every election?

I'm sure they'll find shit but not enough to overturn the election

they usually do it after states have been certified, so this is new.

Latvian Hitman · Nov 10, 2020

Kibbles said:
Is it unprecedented for them to look into voter fraud? Seems like this is really no big deal and likely standard practice no? I know Barr is a Trump stooge and will only fuel the flames so it sucks but I mean, isn't it obvious they will look into election fraud every election?

I'm sure they'll find shit but not enough to overturn the election

Barr's memo changed the process for how DOJ handles these investigations, effectively cutting the guy in charge out of the loop, forcing his resignation yesterday. It also allows investigations to happen prior to the certification of results, potentially allowing that process to be delayed/screwed with. Yes, this is unprecedented.

Schlorgan · Nov 10, 2020

Shocking

Orayn · Nov 10, 2020

Schlorgan said:
Shocking

Nothing to worry about guys the coup attempt is only aspirational.

DeadJoshWalking · Nov 10, 2020

ahhhh, the truth comes out, they think they'll lose the senate if they dump Trump.

They don't think they'll lose the senate if they spend 2 months trying to steal the presidency???

Not sure they're making the right call here.

UltraMav · Nov 10, 2020

DeadJoshWalking said:
ahhhh, the truth comes out, they think they'll lose the senate if they dump Trump.

They don't think they'll lose the senate if they spend 2 months trying to steal the presidency???

Not sure they're making the right call here.

The fact that they think this at all and aren't jumping at the chance to evict Trump and the other nutsos says so much about America.

Kidgalactus · Nov 10, 2020

Latvian Hitman said:
I mean, some people are going to worry themselves sick no matter what. Anyone who is worried about SCOTUS overturning hundreds of thousands of votes across 4 states at the behest of a legal team who thus far has proven unable to even properly file cases at the state level is likely going to find plenty to worry about even after January 20th.

The play by the GOP here seems pretty obvious. They're terrified by the prospect of more widely accepted mail-in voting. They realize full well (even if Trump does not) that they're not going to reverse the results of this election. Their intention is to cast doubt about mail-in voting in general because it presents an existential threat to them at the presidential level going forward. They're going to attack the process until they can get it changed, and their goal is to get it changed in as many states as possible prior to 2024.

And people who downplay alarming events will find a way to do so, no matter how alarming those events become.

Like I said, I hope that your right. Just keep your eyes open, that's all of ask.

night814 · Nov 10, 2020

Steve Youngblood said:
Yes. This stuff is troubling. Like when I heard McConnell's statements yesterday the thing I found troubling is not the idea of respecting that Trump has a right to pursue his options. To some extent I think there is an underlying point that we should all want to take steps to make sure that the results are fair and legal. If there are credible allegations, we should want to be able to say "there was a fair investigation and the allegations were proven false or not credible" as opposed to just going "you lost loser go away!"

But the real problem is that these are all bad faith accusations. If it was just a matter of stating that they have some reservations and are waiting to see the results but that the results would be accepted, that would be slightly annoying but not altogether problematic. The problem is every accusation comes peppered with rhetoric that they already know the conclusion: that Joe Biden cheated. It's the only way he could ever win. No outcome other than a Trump victory could ever be legitimate. We don't need to know how they did it. We'll figure that out later. We just know that they did it.

That's not the framing for respecting a fair process to drag out.

Mcconnells statement yesterday was total fluff, Trump can absolutely challenge the election if he so chooses(it costs money though in most cases which he doesn't have) and mcconnell doesn't want Trump supporters turning on him while they are already hot. He wants to win the GA run offs and he can't if Trump's base isn't charged up

Schlorgan · Nov 10, 2020

night814 said:
Mcconnells statement yesterday was total fluff, Trump can absolutely challenge the election if he so chooses(it costs money though in most cases which he doesn't have) and mcconnell doesn't want Trump supporters turning on him while they are already hot. He wants to win the GA run offs and he can't if Trump's base isn't charged up

This won't backfire at all if we get to the runoffs and Biden is still President-Elect

Maccix · Nov 10, 2020

Just a random thought.

What if places where ballots are stored, well, if something happens to them before they are certified? Let's say a fire.
let's say, the guys looking for voter fraud in the name of the president make something up about them being onto something and then they almost got caught in the fire. They saw someone running away from the building that looked like antifa, and they have some suspicion about why someone wanted to burn the evidence of fraudulent elections down.

or something happening to the ballots in the middle of a recount and "we can never be sure how it went. But up until this point, trump was leading. Just saying.

Stuff like this or some other fabricated shit(hunter Biden's laptop sends his regards) is what's worrying me, even though I shouldn't have to.

They want to be so damn near to the ballots and the counting process, that the ballots themselves are filing for a restraining order.

Cire · Nov 10, 2020

Latvian Hitman said:
You contradict yourself here, though. If these cases have no merit, then he's got zero chance to get anything before SCOTUS, full stop. As they currently stand, these cases won't even make it out of the parking garage.

From my (very limited) understanding of the courts, if the courts find no evidence they can file a motion to dismiss; but the motion to dismiss can be appealed. I don't know if they can keep appealing even without any evidence, but it's something I can see them trying to do.

BWoog · Nov 10, 2020

Schlorgan said:
Shocking

No shit. Of course, this may very well backfire when none of Trump's sycophants believe that elections are safe and will not vote for anyone who isn't Trump, but you do you.

Latvian Hitman · Nov 10, 2020

Kidgalactus said:
And people who downplay alarming events will find a way to do so, no matter how alarming those events become.

Like I said, I hope that your right. Just keep your eyes open, that's all of ask.

Nobody's advocating for the closing of eyes, here. Just pointing out that irrational fears based on PTSD from the last 4 years bereft of any concrete examples of how/why these court cases would ever find their way before SCOTUS in the first place, let alone succeed, isn't really helping matters much. It's largely just giving Trump what he wants: control of the narrative. And it's control he hasn't earned.

Cire said:
From my (very limited) understanding of the courts, if the courts find no evidence they can file a motion to dismiss; but the motion to dismiss can be appealed. I don't know if they can keep appealing even without any evidence, but it's something I can see them trying to do.

The only way to delay a state's certification of results is with an injunction. Injunctions don't get awarded without evidence. Endless appeals absent an injunction mean nothing- the state will simply certify its results in the meantime. And Trump would need to successfully pull this off in several states at once.

Thordinson · Nov 10, 2020

Cire said:
From my (very limited) understanding of the courts, if the courts find no evidence they can file a motion to dismiss; but the motion to dismiss can be appealed. I don't know if they can keep appealing even without any evidence, but it's something I can see them trying to do.

Courts don't find evidence. Courts don't have to file anything to dismiss, they just dismiss. It's up to the Trump team to show fraud. They can't.

Sketchsanchez · Nov 10, 2020

Well wrap it up boys, keeping the senate is definitely more important than *checks notes* keeping the republic together

night814 · Nov 10, 2020

daveo42 said:
Pretty much. If there was actual evidence of widespread voter fraud, then the legal team would have a leg to stand on. Saying mail-in voting is illegal kills any of these lawsuits immediately. This is 100% a tactic to rile up Trump's base, instigate violence, and increase fundraising to Trump so he can pay off his campaign debts.

Also any Republican placating Trump is stringing him along so his incredibly rabid and loyal followers don't turn on them too. Just like 2 weeks ago Trump said Barr wasn't doing enough to help him and his cult showed up OUTSIDE his house in protest

night814 · Nov 10, 2020

Cire said:
I don't think Trump's team is trying to actually win any cases in the courts on merit. He's trying to delay states certifying the results until after Jan 20th in which case it would go to the House and he'd presumably wins. Even though places like PA already stated they would vote for whomever won the popular vote, that does not mean they have to vote for anyone if they can just say it could be fraudulent.

Trump is playing a delay game, hoping it gets to SCOTUS too late for them to make a decision in time. Everyone laughing at how meritless his case is may be missing what his actual plan is. Now the likelihood of this working is low, but I don't think it's impossible; so I think it would be better to prepare for that possibility instead of being blindsided and realizing we don't have enough time in late December.

How are we still getting Trump 4D chess theories, they showed their hand way too early doing a lot of this while counting was still going on in all of the states. They are supposed to wait until the counting is done then wait for actual officials to look at votes that are questionable and provisional ballots. Trump has no patience and his lawyers are not the best people so they jumped the gun without any evidence

FreshYoungDoggo · Nov 10, 2020

This is more for building a narrative in the future when the GOP can pass more restrictive voting rules to disenfranchise "undesirable voters".
They will take this as a lesson in that they need to create more barriers to voters.

Latvian Hitman · Nov 10, 2020

FreshYoungDoggo said:
This is more for building a narrative in the future when the GOP can pass more restrictive voting rules to disenfranchise "undesirable voters".
They will take this as a lesson in that they need to create more barriers to voters.

100%.

Cire · Nov 10, 2020

Latvian Hitman said:
The only way to delay a state's certification of results is with an injunction. Injunctions don't get awarded without evidence. Endless appeals absent an injunction mean nothing- the state will simply certify its results in the meantime. And Trump would need to successfully pull this off in several states at once.

Is this actually the case that they can't delay certification unless there's an injunction? Couldn't they delay it regardless of what the court says?

Blah · Nov 10, 2020

UltraMav said:
I often hear this refrain but every time I see coverage of Trump's fuckery they reiterate that it is baseless.

They don't call it what it is, it isn't just baseless, it's an attempt to undermine democracy through fascism being enabled through Republican coup, treason, and conspiracy.

The headlines should be "Trump attempts to steal lost election via coup" not "Trump lies/misinformed". That's what frustrating.

Red · Nov 10, 2020

Sketchsanchez said:
Well wrap it up boys, keeping the senate is definitely more important than *checks notes* keeping the republic together

They're going to keep pushing and pushing until something breaks, and then blame the other side.

UltraMav · Nov 10, 2020

Blah said:
They don't call it what it is, it isn't just baseless, it's an attempt to undermine democracy through fascism being enabled through Republican coup, treason, and conspiracy.

The headlines should be "Trump attempts to steal lost election via coup" not "Trump lies/misinformed".

I agree with you regarding the reality of the situation, but news organizations are not trained to apply motive. Their job is to state what is happening, objectively. It's why they don't say "Trump lied" about anything, they say "Trump stated a falsehood." "Lying" implies motive, as does being "wrong," and it's subjective. It's up to the public to understand what is happening and react, accordingly. If we are too stupid, as a society, to understand what is happening, that's not on the media, that's on us.

AP - Barr OKs election probes despite little evidence of fraud

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