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arsene_P5

Prophet of Regret
Member
Apr 17, 2020
15,438
No, I want as much RAM as possible for games. But I do want a solution for HDR, because it's annoying that my TV goes black for 1 second due to the UI not having HDR (with the exception for the guide when playing a game). Thus everytime I start a HDR game or going back to the menu, I have a 1 second black screen.
 

PaulLFC

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,167
The only times I notice it's not 4K are:

1) If I look at the screen when really, really close
2) When it doesn't render popup text properly at first so it's blurry and then changes to be crisper. This is something MS needs to fix because it looks bad.
3) When my TV momemtarily flickers when I start a game that's in 4K and it has to adjust

Really, once 2) is fixed (because surely that's a bug), only number 3 is something that annoys me about the 1080p dashboard situation. If my TV could seamlessly transition between 1080p and 4K/HDR, it'd be fine.
 

arsene_P5

Prophet of Regret
Member
Apr 17, 2020
15,438
Based on this it sounds like the ram allocation is the same as the PS4. So 3.5 I guess?
Good quote. 3,5 seems to be at least a assumption we can make. After all PS4 Pro had 9GB RAM and 5,5GB for games. I still rather have official confirmation, but for a guess the quote is good enough. So we are looking at 3,5GB OS reserves on PS5 versus 2,5GB on Xbox Series X.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,170
My TV switching back and forth is kinda annoying. It has to flash black to change resolutions. I don't see anyone mentioning that though so maybe it's just how my TV handles it.... Idk how you couldn't notice that though.

Edit: oh maybe it's an HDR thing.
 
Last edited:

DJ Lushious

Enhanced Xperience
Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,330
Consider me firmly in the camp of "more RAM for games > crisper UI".

The biggest reason is that unlike the PlayStation's and Xbox 360 before it, the X1 /XS don't use a purpose built, dedicated UI layer for the console, and instead uses a **very* general purpose UI layer (UWP XAML) that is optimised for general UI development and doesn't - and won't - have any specific low level, case by case optimisation.

It means its less efficient overall in terms of performance and RAM usage, but it also means its ridiculously easier and quicker for Microsoft to iterate and change their UI because they're using a mature and fully fledged UI stack with a lot of tooling, documentation and flexibility, and their developers have a lotmof experience with it. (The Windows 10 shell is even built with UWP XAML these days)

And every layer / element on the UI gets its own render texture rather than being flattened on top of each other. So even a simple game tile has a BGRA background image texture, an A8 texture for the text label and a texture BGRA texture for a colour behind the label that get placed on top of each each other, rather than creating a single composite texture.

Which makes sense for a general purpose UI system because we don't know who needs to be redrawn when, and don't want the cost of redrawing entire cascading trees constantly, but means when you increase resolution, you can get a lot of potential memory increase - but not even close to 1GB from XAML elements alone. The biggest increase is probably literally from the resolution of the bitmap image assets like game art and full screen background art - and the of course, all the apps would also render in 4K with their own increased memory usage, taking up parts of the allocated Windows side of the memory pool

It is, however, literally a case of them flipping a switch to get it to happen for the most part. XAML was designed even in the old WPF days to scale perfectly with DPI/ resolution, so if they told it to render at 4K right now, it would, with very little work.
The easy answer, the whole UI isn't a raster, there is numerous graphical assets such as game box art, backgrounds, and fonts can be cached as images rather than rastered to keep draw calls efficient. For 4K to have any effect all of these assets would need to be stored and cached with 4K in mind as well, and all such elements especially with alpha channels all adds up fast.

Also keep in mind that VRAM on consoles is shared with the system, not dedicated.
Thanks for sharing this insight, both of you!

Performance aside, I'd just be happy if the dashboard was in HDR so every time I jump between a game and the dashboard my tv/receiver/Xbox don't have to renegotiate for a second.
Yeah, this would be nice. I would hope it's in the cards, considering how Microsoft has continued to evolve the UI over time.
 
Jul 1, 2020
6,639
Could not care less. It's fast and functional which is all I want in a console UI. Quadrupling the resolutions really won't improve it in any meaningful way as it is already scaled to 4K by the console.
 

Mad_Rhetoric

Banned
May 7, 2019
3,466
Make is HDR so my screen doesnt go black for a few seconds when I switch from game to dash and vice versa.
 

cakely

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,149
Chicago
If no one even said anything about it being 1080p -- I don't even think this thread exists.

I don't know about that. Flipping inputs on my TV between a 4k UI and a 1080p UI makes the difference really obvious. It's especially weird since in my case, the gen 8 console is the one with the 4K UI.

It doesn't bother me, it would simply be a nice feature to have. Nothing wrong with that.
 

Green

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,415
Eh, it looks fine to me. Obviously it would look better in 4K, but it looks good enough that if there were any tradeoffs, any compromises at all to push it 4K, I wouldn't want it.

I'm more interested in new features, personally.
 

tandeciarz

Member
Apr 21, 2020
299
Obviously not a huge issue but as someone who has both PS5 and Series X it's VERY apparent that the Series X dash is low res when you're constantly switching between the two like I am. I do like the default dynamic background don't get me wrong but man the PS5 dash is so clean and sexy and the text and tiles are super crisp. BTW what's up with the latest 'dynamic themes' on Series X? All of them look like blurry shit compared to the default one.
It's been like this since PS4 Pro and One X - I hope MS will update this.
 

jman1954goat

Linked the Fire
Member
May 9, 2020
12,465
I could not even tell the menu was not 4k.

hopefully they improve it It so it will be good for the people looking for it but for me It works fine.
 

Pyro

God help us the mods are making weekend threads
Member
Jul 30, 2018
14,505
United States
The easy answer, the whole UI isn't a raster, there is numerous graphical assets such as game box art, backgrounds, and fonts can be cached as images rather than rastered to keep draw calls efficient. For 4K to have any effect all of these assets would need to be stored and cached with 4K in mind as well, and all such elements especially with alpha channels all adds up fast.

Also keep in mind that VRAM on consoles is shared with the system, not dedicated.

Thank you for this explanation, even I can understand it (mostly lol)!
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,934
If it saves them a gigabyte of RAM then it seems wasteful to go with 4K on a UI that is literally just meant to be as functional as possible.

With how small the RAM increase is on these new consoles, especially relative to the resolution increase they're aiming for, I think threads like this will age poorly.
 

MCD

Honest Work
Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,847
My only problem with the UI fidelity is this:

Click on dash button. Press hamburger button (start) on any open app/game. The context menu will load in low res for like a sec.

Can someone try it out? I'm on 1440p 120hz sdr btw.
 

wellslogan

Member
Aug 1, 2018
15
It's definitely disappointing for me and I really do notice the difference switching between my PS4 Pro and my XSX. There've been some great explanations in this thread for why it's 1080p and I agree that I'd rather have RAM go to games than the OS, but frankly when Sony is offering games the same amount (or close to it) of RAM with a 4k dash, I don't know how you can't be disappointed that MS can't do the same.
 

Poutine

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
933
Don't really mind, I think the dash is fine right now but having choice is always good so why not?
 

RPGam3r

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,570
I have both systems. I didn't know it wasn't 4K. Seems like a complete waste of time to increase the resolution.
 

Krakatoa

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,094
I would rather they put/keep the resources towards making the games better
 

TheYanger

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,161
The only reason I'd like them to do it, would be to eliminate the quick black screen when your TV changes resolutions to launch a game.

Aside from that, I don't care even a little bit, lol. The only reason I even know it isn't 4K, is because people have said it here. It looks more than crisp and sharp enough for me, and if it means more system resources for the games, then great.
It doesn't even do that due to resolution (the dash always outputs in 4k, it's just rendering in 1080), it's because of HDR, which there are very valid reasons not to want on all the time.
 

Replicant

Attempted to circumvent a ban with an alt
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,380
MN
It literally is a non issue. Unless they totally change the way it works, it's not going to be much benefit. It looks fine and more importantly it now for the first time runs fine.
 

Deleted member 34714

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 28, 2017
1,617
For how transparent MS is with XBox design, maybe they will eventually give us actual performance figures freed going 1080P instead of a 4K UI. Until now i don't think the difference is all that much and most of it is just carrying the same 1 UI across all platform.
 
Nov 9, 2017
3,777
Just so I understand, things like screenshots, promo game art, themes, and game preview vids aren't limited to 1080p right?
 

Ogni-XR21

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,394
Germany
Assuming that you are saying that PS5's UI is barebones, could you please explain why......comparatively?
No folders, no transfer of PS5 games to an external drive, no themes, no ability to download savegames from the cloud without going through a list of all your savegames, faulty external drive support in general, no way to backup savegames of PS5 games without paying, unintuitive access to parties and friend as well as trophies, no automatic switching of SDR/HDR content.

Maybe barebones wasn't the right choice of words, but lacking compared to it's predecessor. I would have honestly prefered an evolution of the PS4 UI to the PS5 one (and I know that the pro UI was already 4K). I think the MS approach was the better choice and I don't really like the Xbox UI all that much.
 

Gestault

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,404
My only problem with the UI fidelity is this:

Click on dash button. Press hamburger button (start) on any open app/game. The context menu will load in low res for like a sec.

Can someone try it out? I'm on 1440p 120hz sdr btw.

I've noticed this as well, and wasn't sure of the cause. 1440p/120hz/SDR is my exact setup for my Series S and a 1440p monitor. It's only momentary, but I definitely catch it when it happens.
 

rebelcrusader

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,833
No, I want as much RAM as possible for games. But I do want a solution for HDR, because it's annoying that my TV goes black for 1 second due to the UI not having HDR (with the exception for the guide when playing a game). Thus everytime I start a HDR game or going back to the menu, I have a 1 second black screen.

This is a terrible idea
The black screen is annoying but sdr to hdr conversion is so much worse and will affect everything like it does on ps5
 

Barrel Cannon

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
9,315
It doesn't bother me, there's other features that are way higher on my priority list for them to add before a 4k dash