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XNihili

Banned
Jan 16, 2018
221
The tabletop RPG In Nomine allows you to play devils or angels and playing devils seems more interesting because even though you are less powerfull, you have more liberty.
As an angel, you have to be the Lawfull Good paladin. The only liberty you have is to either be a uncompromizing zealot or a teddy bear.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,167
I didn't say that. Also, this isn't a topic about paintings. You are pretty quick to throw stones, friend.

Throwing stones...?

I'm just coming up with other creative work that's considered some of the most incredible creative work ever produced by human hands and... it was done to glorify the Christian God. It might feel icky, it might be boring, or it could be something that millions of people spend try to see every year.

FWIW, I'm a secular Atheist, but it's a topic that -- like OP said -- we usually don't see much effort from. In an exclusive industry that's I think we all want to be more inclusive, it's a topic that is rarely really approached, especially for a topic that has been a hallmark of creative work, fiction and nonfiction, for nearly all of the history of Western civilization.
 

Gakidou

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,612
pip pip cheerio fish & chips
Yeah prettymuch anything by bullfrog/lionhead and quintet seems to have the vibe you described. And the whole dragon quest series? So I guess you could say there was a big christian-inspired god/angelic trend throughout the 90s. I think it just kinda went out of fashion as people started familiarising games with dark fantasy fulfilment thanks to the mainstream media's hot takes on stuff like doom/quake, GTA and mortal kombat.
Plus just, other themes seemed more rebellious and cool and culture spirals around. Deep space scifi became really big, and then modern gritty superhero, and now skyrim brought back a wave of mainstream high fantasy but it was all more norse/european folklore leaning.

I'm seeing a lot of stuff with sprinklings of crusader/paladin/angel themes these days, from like dark souls to overwatch to warhammer40k, theres a touch of white knight fever going around.

Anyway if you wanna know if I'd play a game about some self-righteous, repressed, diligent, muscular, strict but warm, radiant, steamy, attractive lads and ladies with big shoulder armour and swords I would say to you uh... man... what?? huh?? what were we talking about?
 
OP
OP
GNEVERD

GNEVERD

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
261
This is a pretty good topic OP, thanks for posting it.

For something that is such a strong part of Western Civilization, that is the Abrahamic God of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, the theme or the concept is generally absent from videogames. I think a lot of it relates back, like another poster said, to the basis of many videogames being in Dungeons and Dragons, and while D&D is no satanic worship or something, it's just traditionally been held in the medium to be a more compelling, robust viewpoint. Not that the Abrahamic/Christian/etc 'hell' has ... Orcs and Demagorgons in it, but the character that generally appear in a D&D inspired videogame (nearly every fantasy game for the last 30 years) are heavily inspired by that demonic imagery.

Just insofar as it's nothing that's ever been really done or tried, I think it's an interesting concept. Obviously there are some narrative challenges, I mean, can the Archangel Michael really be challenged by a demon if he's got God on his side...? But, insofar as this has been a theme in art for, literally, thousands of years, I don't think that it's a stretch to say that some medium that's been around for 40 years couldn't realistically take a stab at it.

I think this could generally be expanded to religion in general, as there are almost no sympathetic or positive representations of mainstream religious people in videogames, at least, in the last 15 years. Any game that has any religious theme in it, whether it's Skyrim, Fallout, Witcher, Assassins Creed, etc., religious people are universally bad guys, and good guys are typically world weary outsiders, if they're religious then they're religious exiles -- victims of the evil religious overlord. If there are religious people, they're more or less accidentally religious, or they don't really believe, or their religion is more of a Abrahamic-tinged humanism. There is one mainstream exception to this, and it's Red Dead Redemption: Undead Nightmare. There is a nun in this game who is not portrayed as an evil bad guy raising the dead, she's actually a good guy, she's actually a badass, and she's actually a Catholic nun. She's not some world-weary humanist who takes the habit just to stick it to the evil Catholic Church, the game doesn't wade into any of that. She's not a hapless fool thanking God for his do-goodery when it's actually you the protagonist doing good (as the Nun is portrayed in the mainline RDR story, basically another antagonistic swindler who doesn't give John Marston his due). She's honest to goodness, a religious nun, who is a hero. And I think it's the only portrayal in contemporary videogames of an honestly Catholic character who isn't an evil bad guy.



You're right, nothing creative that glorifies the Christian god feels anything but icky, boring, or both.

IWBhn5P.jpg
Yup, you get exactly where I'm coming from. I'm respectful of others religious views. I literally feel like, do you. If a developer tries to make this type of game I don't feel like it should be Bible game, far from it. I'm just talking about flipping the script (literally & figuratively), while keeping the blood and guts we love. At the end of the day, let's go to hell, let's be a demon is kinda stale from my pov. Games are art and without creativity the industry becomes stale.
 

Thardin

Member
Jan 7, 2018
926
In Diablo you are fighting the demons of hell and are very much helping/helped by the Angels of Heaven.

You are still technically half demon, but also half angel.
 

Man God

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,351
Dragon Quest VII and IX especially are games in the mold of the OP. You literally are an angel in DQ 9.
 
OP
OP
GNEVERD

GNEVERD

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
261
In Diablo you are fighting the demons of hell and are very much helping/helped by the Angels of Heaven.

You are still technically half demon, but also half angel.
This is exactly why I created the topic. There's always a demonic caveat to your character, even if he's good.
 

Canas Renvall

Banned
Mar 4, 2018
2,535
Castlevania is all about that vampire and demon slaying, often (especially in the earlier games) under the guise of helping the church and the people who worship God.
 

CustĂłdio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,904
Brazil, UnaĂ­/MG
Actual, explicit, angel as the protagonist, is a bit harder. Like, there is that odd John Travolta movie and there is an X-man named Angel. The times where God is the protagonist, sort of, are often horror stories, where faith is used to save the human protagonist.

There was an actual angel of God in the Justice League of America called Zauriel. Characters from christianity were always present in DC/Vertigo.

ZAURIEL-WONDER-WOMAN.jpg
 

Keasar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,724
UmeĂĄ, Sweden
In the Might and Magic series there is the Haven faction centred very much around faith and angels.
arch-angel_wide.jpg

Usually in fantasy PnP RPGs I play Clerics or Paladins, quite enjoy "Holy magic" in those games.
 

Fifstar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
246
This is exactly why I created the topic. There's always a demonic caveat to your character, even if he's good.

But doesn't this apply to the demonic side as well? You end up as a good char with a evil background in that case. Straight good and straight bad chars alike are boring.
 

Dogui

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,849
Brazil
You said angels are always pure and obedient. I pointed to biblical examples of them not being so. They were angels before they were demons. They didn't just change their name and instantly become "evil". The implication is that they choose to be odedient and chose to leave, not unlike people who abide by the rules of society and criminals who deviate from that. The point is, I don't think we have more in common with one side or the other

Also the number of people in here who think a stories in the side of God and Heaven would be boring is baffling. I'm not even a practicing Christian and I still know there's huge potential

Well, demons are technically angels but the ones we're calling angels in the context are the ones that indeed are always pure and obedient.

Wouldn't make sense that a non-fallen angel would have it's own moral code or personality while serving the absolute order of god.

I mean, god is an absolute ruler, angels under him pretty much should act like robots.

Fallen angels would be defined by their own desires and personality, otherwise there was no reason to rebel.

Imo it's a silly thing to discuss btw. Oldass mythologies never makes much sense in a nowadays context anyway.

The thing is that we have a lot of games where demons are the common enemy, provided the heroes are fragile humans, because we get the idea that demons > humans.
 

robosllim

Banned
Dec 4, 2017
548
I'm having a hard time imagining a game like SMT or Bayonetta that casts God and the angels as 100% good guys. The issue is, God is generally considered to be the most powerful being in the universe, the guy who created everything and made all the rules. It's like a game where you play as the son of a billionaire businessman, or a member of the secret service. The game would end up being either shallow or cynical, because there's not much you can really do with a main character who's got a loving, Christian God at his back.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
It would be a very good way to piss off everyone.
- Religious types would be pissed at the blasphemy.
- Non-religious types would be pissed at the proselitism.
I don't see who the market for such a game would be, frankly.
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,780
Brazil
I'm having a hard time imagining a game like SMT or Bayonetta that casts God and the angels as 100% good guys. The issue is, God is generally considered to be the most powerful being in the universe, the guy who created everything and made all the rules. It's like a game where you play as the son of a billionaire businessman, or a member of the secret service. The game would end up being either shallow or cynical, because there's not much you can really do with a main character who's got a loving, Christian God at his back.

Don't forget the plot hole that if God is so powerful, how does the shit got so big to justify a game without the Woman simply blinking every demon to their place?

Was She playing skeeball or something?
 

robosllim

Banned
Dec 4, 2017
548
Don't forget the plot whole that if god is so powerful, how does the shit got so big to justify a game without the dude simply blinking every demon to their place?
Right, so it's either shallow (something arcade-style where the fact that you're an angel is mostly aesthetic) or cynical (turns out God being all-powerful is just propaganda and he wouldn't be shit without you doing his dirty work).
 

Kasai

Member
Jan 24, 2018
4,301
You're basically an angel in DQ9. There's lots of guardian angels and the like in that game.

latest
It may be an unpopular opinion, but I absolutely loved DQ9. It was just an overall good game and the story was really all about how you're basically God's messenger around the world.

You even get more "power" the more good deeds and the more people you help out
 

Chopchop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,171
I think a lot of games avoid the Abrahamic God but there are other gods that are used in game lore.

Valkyrie Profile has its Norse god stuff. Ragnarok Online does too.

Final Fantasy games often have you working for gods. In FFXIV, you're basically the champion acting on behalf of the god of that world.
 

Lyrick

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,818
Why does the God have to be all "good" Why can't it be an Old Testament style - test your faith by asking you to kill your child or give your daughter to the murderous/rapey hoards type?
 

Razmos

Unshakeable One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,890
Final Fantasy games often have you working for gods. In FFXIV, you're basically the champion acting on behalf of the god of that world.
FF14 is a weird case as you are routinely killing the gods of the lesser, primal races. It's justified as the gods pose a very real threat to the world by being given physical form but still, yikes.
 

4859

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,046
In the weak and the wounded
It's a shallow aesthetic choice based around being edgy while having almost no bearing on actual themes and ideals they portray?

No.

That's worthless shit like black/modern death metal.


This may come as a shock to you.

BUT blues was started by black Americans.

Black Americans who were trafficked as property, people who were stolen from their lives, their family, their country, their culture, and brought to be slave labor in America.

Surprise, they already had a culture and religion of their own, you know, being they were stolen from another country and shit.

So how did Christians, the religion of holy angels, and righteous behavior, and peace handle this?

Why they acted like Christ of course! They turned the other cheek, offered understanding, and welcomed these differences into a relationship of mutual understanding and peace.

Just fucking kidding, Christians never act like their Christ, it's all just a mask they wear. See they pretend to be rightous And holy as a public mask, they use rightous
Imagery like beautiful angels and depictions and stories of justice. But as soon as they get the chance, the act ends, and they are the personifcation of their religions demons. Dat right wing projection, og style.


They referred to the dieties of stolen black americans as Satan, they called their religion Satanic, they used it as one of the many excuses to beat rape and murder, and in general, and as mentioned, act exactly like the demons portrayed in their religion.

But.... the black people were the Satan worshipping heathens... so if the side of the angels were actually murdering rapist monsters....

What were the demons?

Needless to say this well earned some seething anger played put a lot in the music created by black America. Jazz blues rythm....

Like they were pissed. Like really really really fucking pissed. Like I want to blow whitey up with dynamite and watch his hypocritical blood run through the streets pissed...



Because of this diabolical association, many blues musicians considered
themselves to be in league with Satan. Peetie Wheatstraw (real name William Bunch)
marketed himself as the 'Devil's Son-in-Law' or the 'High Sheriff from Hell,' As
Robert Palmer states in Deep Blues.

Many other blues artists felt that if they were
going to be labelled as cohorts of the devil then they should play that role,
preferring honest performance to the hypocrisy of the preachers.

Demons, Devils and Witches: The Occult in... (PDF Download Available). Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/public...s_and_Witches_The_Occult_in_Heavy_Metal_Music [accessed Jun 01 2018].

So when these 20-30s era blues was rediscovered and appropriated as rock and roll in the 50's, these powerful stories and legends that arose around this also transferred over. And when it was re rediscovered again in the 60's for the english boom, it became the basis for metal. Which is why the vast majority of metal is taking stands against the unjust. Against the rich, against war, against the status quo of bullshit.

The culture and it's basis in the underlying unjustice of hypocritical Christianity spread across the globe. The story of the false righteousness of a bullshit religion that is actually the opposite of what it preached became a powerful storytelling trope.


So the reason why so many games are 'satanic' or christians/angels always turn out to be douchbags who are exposed as the real monsters...

Well that's Because art imitates life.
 

Neiteio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,222
Aren't the demons in Doom just aliens from another dimension and not actual spiritual beings?
I always think of the "demons" in DOOM as aliens, yeah. At least with DOOM 2016, there's no evidence that "Hell" contains human souls or anything of the sort. You see human bones, but those could just be victims from earth. Aside from the monsters, DOOM's Hell is empty.

It just seems like an alternate universe, home to what are functionally aliens that are trying to invade and conquer other universes. Yeah, there's satanic imagery with the human cultists who worship them back on earth, but one could interpret that as our concept of a devil coming from the influence of otherworldly creatures that aren't really spiritual beings.
 

LordBaztion

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,818
Lima PerĂş
Gamers and Designers like the edgyness, I guess. Also the amount of evil churches used in games is cringe worthy.
Personally I preffer to have a couple of games that does justice to a well presented religion and good vs evil dilema instead of countless games about half angels fighting demons.
 

SolVanderlyn

I love pineapple on pizza!
Member
Oct 28, 2017
13,523
Earth, 21st Century
You said angels are always pure and obedient. I pointed to biblical examples of them not being so. They were angels before they were demons. They didn't just change their name and instantly become "evil". The implication is that they choose to be odedient and chose to leave, not unlike people who abide by the rules of society and criminals who deviate from that. The point is, I don't think we have more in common with one side or the other

Also the number of people in here who think a stories in the side of God and Heaven would be boring is baffling. I'm not even a practicing Christian and I still know there's huge potential
A demon loses its angel status after its fall.

While once there were only angels, after the war in Heaven, there's a clear distinction between the ones who stayed good and the ones who defected. So you're right in the sense that at one point, yeah, I suppose the bad seeds were among the good. But the devil's rebellion weeded out the bad and created the divide.

Also, I think this idea has potential, but it would have to be done tactfully so as not to offend people and be considered blasphemous.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,962
Osaka, Osaka
Ganon is a pig demon. The Goddesses give Link a sword to go kill his ass.

Demon's Souls, and its sequels, are all about killing demons.

ActRaiser, and Act Raiser 2 are you playing as a theophany, killing demons to make the Earth habitable.

Generally, in Castlevania you're fighting against Dracula, whose a Satanic agent. Isn't that the name of the game in Japan?
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
I always think of the "demons" in DOOM as aliens, yeah. At least with DOOM 2016, there's no evidence that "Hell" contains human souls or anything of the sort. You see human bones, but those could just be victims from earth. Aside from the monsters, DOOM's Hell is empty.

It just seems like an alternate universe, home to what are functionally aliens that are trying to invade and conquer other universes. Yeah, there's satanic imagery with the human cultists who worship them back on earth, but one could interpret that as our concept of a devil coming from the influence of otherworldly creatures that aren't really spiritual beings.
The thing about hell in Doom is that there is some satanic power that infects ant living thing it comes across. The Revenant for example is a human that was experimented on by the cultists which turned into a demon. So you could say that most of the demons were aliens/humans/other creatures that corrupted and became Demons.
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,825
Why does the God have to be all "good" Why can't it be an Old Testament style - test your faith by asking you to kill your child or give your daughter to the murderous/rapey hoards type?

I don't think a lot of people in here know much about the Abrahamic God or the Bible outside of "He's omnipotent/ominscient and good"
 

Neiteio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,222
I definitely see what you're coming from OP. Basically any franchise that so much as touches conventional religion they almost always demonizes God. Some tend to be out there and some make it obscure but its usually always present.

Castilevania series, Xenoblade 2 (definitely not the other entries in that series) and Guilty Gear (thru Ky Kiske) are some of only series I know that potray religion in a positive light.
Xenoblade 2 depicts religion as extremely dangerous.

(Penultimate villain spoilers)

The game's equivalent of the Pope tries to wipe out all of humanity.

However, Xenoblade 2 does suggest that God himself/herself can be benevolent.

So basically, X2 vouches for God but cautions against organized religion.
 

Skittzo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,037
The Dragon Quest series has some good stuff along these lines I think. In DQ9 you're literally an angel.

DQ7 has you essentially working to "revive" God for much of the game. There's even a bonus dungeon where you get to fight God, and if you win he'll grant you one of a number of wishes.

One of the cool things about this game is that there kind of are angels- the four spirits you also fight in a bonus dungeon- and these angels get kinda pissed at you because God created humans to have the ability to grow and evolve beyond what they were born as (AKA leveling up) whereas these spirits do not have that ability. When you beat them they talk about how they're jealous of humanity's capacity for growth.

Of course in the game once you revive God it turns out
it was just the demon lord pretending to be God
but nevertheless the game is heavily themed around religion and working for God and angels against demons/monsters.
 

robosllim

Banned
Dec 4, 2017
548
I don't think a lot of people in here know much about the Abrahamic God or the Bible outside of "He's omnipotent/ominscient and good"
Being an agent of Old Testament God and spreading plagues and smiting sinners and turning random folks into salt would be fun, but at that point how is it all that different from playing as a demon?
 

closer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,178
For me the trope of being the "savior" is present in so many games that itd be incredibly heavy handed to pair it w divine justice. "Priest w a gun" trope sees the light sometimes but im not really here for that
 

Gabbo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,569
220px-Requiem_Box_Front_NA.jpg

This game has you playing an Angel sent to earth by God to stop fallen angels and other demonic creatures who have corrupted Gods creation.
 

Z-Beat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,912
Your suggestion sounds like Darksiders, OP.

War gets sent back to find out how the war started early. You fight both heaven and hell but most of the enemies are demons.
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,825
Being an agent of Old Testament God and spreading plagues and smiting sinners and turning random folks into salt would be fun, but at that point how is it all that different from playing as a demon?
I'm not saying it should necessarily be that, just agreeing that there is nuance even when playing as an agent of God
 

TitanicFall

Member
Nov 12, 2017
8,315
OP, your idea doesn't really change much. You still end up fighting demons and Satan, which many games already do. The only difference in your scenario is the player's character.
 

justiceiro

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
6,664
Sorry, op, not totally following this logic. Besides, asking for GTA level production out of the blue is totally unrealistic.
 

Popetita

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,957
TX|PR
I know it is not exactly your point but God of War fits here as it is told from thr perspective of a God, just not in the way you explained.
 
May 5, 2018
238
It's gonna all be allegory than actual interpretation. Which is a shame since Christian mythology is just as interesting as other religions. But it's so comoditized that it's kinda lame at this point. You're only going to get educational games that gloss over any parts of the Bible that aren't considered child appropriate and don't involve Jesus. There are too many groups with too much money that will do anything they can to prevent Christianity being portrayed anything less than perfect.

A game involving God rapturing souls and fighting Lucifer and his demons on Earth would be a trip.
 

Qwark

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,063
Wouldn't an all-good, all-powerful God be kind of... boring? People like character flaws, and an easy one is to make them part-demon.

I would like to see more games with Christian mythology though, it's got some really interesting stuff to explore.