Anon: "I worked at Valve a few years back, and I could write a book about what's wrong there" (Update: Verified ex-Valve employee comments in thread)

[Deleted member 6730]

Why in the fuck are we taking an anonymous comment on some random website at face value.

I can literally reply to that guy right now and say I worked for Valve.

 

[Deleted member 18202]

And would you also agree that this type of environment can be frustrating even to the point of being detrimental for one's well-being if they are a bad fit for that environment, while at the same time being a good environment for another type of person to thrive?

I guess don't really need to ask you this( not that I think I know your answer!), I think I'm just trying to say that I totally believe that somebody can end up there and have an awful, awful time. It's just that I don't take that to mean there's something horribly wrong inside the company.

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I'm actually in full agreement with you, and I expressed this earlier in the thread. I worked at Valve, and this is fully my take. It ultimately wasn't where I wanted to be long term but it's absolutely for one type of person, and if that's not you, it's a bad relationship for both the company and the employee. You end up with people like from the OP: frustrated and not aligned. I think if you find your speed at Valve, you have unprecedented freedom to create. But not everyone is the right fit.

I think Valve is not without its issues, and the shadow-politics that stem as a result of the lack of structure is not the least of them. Add that to terrible intra-company communication between teams and you've got a "problems they need to solve" stew going. But IMO it's being way exaggerated. By most measures Valve is doing great and some really smart and creative people are working on some really awesome stuff they'll get to show the world when they're ready.

Since confirmation came up just above, if mods need it, they're free to check that my original signup email here was a confirmed @valvesoftware.com email, or I can PM proof of my time there.

 

[-COOLIO-]

So capitalism, greed, and individualism will always win no matter wherever you try to implement communism.

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a flat corporate structure isn't communism.

 

[Deleted member 2317]

Business > Art

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Certainly seems that way. Who needs creativity right?

we got fucking camoflouge patterns to sell for polygons ladies and lads

sell the fucking camo my people like there's no tomorrow its what you were born to do

 

[scare_crow]

Has this been vetted at all?

 

[Kyougar]

Has this been vetted at all?

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No. Rumors from random anonymous people from the comment section on the Internet are OK now.

 

[Wumbo64]

I'm actually in full agreement with you, and I expressed this earlier in the thread. I worked at Valve, and this is fully my take. It ultimately wasn't where I wanted to be long term but it's absolutely for one type of person, and if that's not you, it's a bad relationship for both the company and the employee. You end up with people like from the OP: frustrated and not aligned. I think if you find your speed at Valve, you have unprecedented freedom to create. But not everyone is the right fit.

I think Valve is not without its issues, and the shadow-politics that stem as a result of the lack of structure is not the least of them. Add that to terrible intra-company communication between teams and you've got a "problems they need to solve" stew going. But IMO it's being way exaggerated. By most measures Valve is doing great and some really smart and creative people are working on some really awesome stuff they'll get to show the world when they're ready.

Since confirmation came up just above, if mods need it, they're free to check that my original signup email here was a confirmed @valvesoftware.com email, or I can PM proof of my time there.

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Congrats on having that on your resume, even if it didn't work out!

I am sure a lot of awesome people work at Valve and that the company layout was made to foster creativity and innovation. A lot of people who work their love their job.

It's just that I disagree that the problems are exaggerated. Being dismissive of former employees reasoned complaints about a workplace isn't something I endorse at all. I have quit more than one job, feeling like it was me and not the employer, only to later have recruiters be personally candid about how I was being cattle called and exploited. Because of that, I now listen to what people have to say when they leave on less than amicable terms.

Valve is a market leader in its respective field, so it justifiably amplifies any scrutiny they face.

 

[Doskoi Panda]

The issue of what they're doing. Little or nothing, you claim. What happens if I ask youabout user-facing features like steam input, workshop, proton, big picture mode, in-home streaming? What happens when I asked about their huge work on open standards like sdl and vulkan? Steamvr. Etc.

What I really want is to know what company does more than this? Valve appears to be rolling out more significant developments at a faster rate than even the console holders. Even if you think would have been does more, valve has to be way up there, right.

'valve does nothing' gets thrown around a lot, but it can't possibly mean what it literally says. You have to qualify it somehow because it's plainly false on the face.

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Bolded is a great question. It's also a question that's often left unanswered, or at best, is just dismissed. Just saying.
Valve certainly does more than nothing, so the fact that that sentiment is as common as it is is concerning enough, but it really baffles that anyone could get so specific as to say that Valve is letting their platform fall apart or that they're providing minimum maintenance to the things that consumers depend on, given the facts.

 

[Wumbo64]

Bolded is a great question.
It's also, perhaps, the most-dodged question in Era's short history.

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I think it is less that they do nothing and more that they introduce a feature, people eat up as a this great triumph, then it gets painfully gradual support.

Big Picture is an excellent idea, though I think the UI is cumbersome and has needed an overhaul for a long time.

Steam Input is great, but I feel like not having seperate desktop and Big Picture UIs sucks.

In home streaming is a solid feature, but has limited appeal based on the input latency and your connections/hardware. I would say it is more of an appreciated novelty than something they should be devoting significant resources to, particularly when we are about to get end-to-end streaming from data centers here pretty soon with Stadia and consoles.

Their work promoting open standards is probably their best use of resources. Making APIs like Open GL and Vulkan mainstream, along with their excellent Linux support is fantastic! Now that Microsoft is putting a Linux Kernel in Widows, really leaning on crowd-sourced knowledge pools like GitHub and even putting their own titles on Steam, I am beaming! If Valve's stalwart attitude towards making sure games are created and distributed with open standards had any part in that move, I am thankful. Though, now I am more interested in how agile Microsoft will be in creating a marketplace and distribution center to compete or compliment Steam.

Steam VR is neat. Unfortunately, they want as much as some people spend on a decent computer for their own self-proclaimed superior solutions to VR. I and plenty of other people don't have hundreds of extra dollars or the space to use VR. Some of us still want new conventional made games, which Valve had an outstanding track record with. I can understand the idea that the platform is better use of their time, but they have failed to even license out their existing IP for someone to make noteworthy follow ups to. Portal, Left for Dead, and Half Life being comatose isn't just a shame, it's leaving billions of dollars of potential profit and millions of happy fans in the dust.

 

[Crayon]

 

[larrybud]

money won

 

[headspawn]

I bet someone from this forum wrote that shit. lol

 

[Crayon]

I think it is less that they do nothing and more that they introduce a feature, people eat up as a this great triumph, then it gets painfully gradual support.

Big Picture is an excellent idea, though I think the UI is cumbersome and has needed an overhaul for a long time.

Steam Input is great, but I feel like not having seperate desktop and Big Picture UIs sucks. In home streaming is a solid feature, but has limited appeal based on the input latency and your connections/hardware. I would say it is more of an appreciated novelty than something they should be devoting significant resources to, particularly when we are about to get end-to-end streaming from data centers here pretty soon with Stadia and consoles.

Their work promoting open standards is probably their best use of resources. Making APIs like Open GL and Vulkan mainstream, along with their excellent Linux support is fantastic! Now that Microsoft is putting a Linux Kernel in Widows, really leaning on crowd-sourced knowledge pools like GitHub and even putting their own titles on Steam, I am beaming! If Valve's stalwart attitude towards making sure games are created and distributed with open standards had any part in that move, I am thankful. Though, now I am more interested in how agile Microsoft will be in creating a marketplace and distribution center to compete or compliment Steam.

Steam VR is neat. Unfortunately, they want as much as some people spend on a decent computer for their own self-proclaimed superior solutions to VR. I and plenty of other people don't have hundreds of extra dollars or the space to use VR. Some of us still want new conventional made games, which Valve had an outstanding track record with. I can understand the idea that the platform is better use of their time, but they have failed to even license out their existing IP for someone to make noteworthy follow ups to. Portal, Left for Dead, and Half Life being comatose isn't just a shame, it's leaving billions of dollars of potential profit and millions of happy fans in the dust.

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Excellent. I understand this. big picture mode is a treehouse where it could be a castle by now, and the rest.

And I hate to undermine this whole post like this,. I'm not trying to be curt are evasive, but my argument is going to come at this somewhat sideways.

I don't see any other comparable platforms doing significantly more than this as far as activities that improve the platform. Perhaps even none as much as this.

Valve may let some of the features develop slowly or even break, (I've experienced a problem with steam OS wherr a bug broke it after 3 years of problem free use. Presumably because they left a bug hang in there as they moved onto steamos 3.) but just the fact that they're doing this stuff at all I think puts them head and shoulders above even a stellar store like gog... When it come specifically to 'doing something'. Or, reinvesting in the platform to better it.

So that's my argument. I don't see anyone else doing much more than these activities. I think the fact that many are sort of rickety is balanced by the fact that these things exist at all because nobody else is doing them or at least a comprable number of them.

Edit: VVVV hey Jangowuzhere this is the exact same answer id give you

 

[Jangowuzhere]

The issue of what they're doing. Little or nothing, you claim. What happens if I ask youabout user-facing features like steam input, workshop, proton, big picture mode, in-home streaming? What happens when I asked about their huge work on open standards like sdl and vulkan? Steamvr. Etc.

What I really want is to know what company does more than this? Valve appears to be rolling out more significant developments at a faster rate than even the console holders. Even if you think would have been does more, valve has to be way up there, right.

'valve does nothing' gets thrown around a lot, but it can't possibly mean what it literally says. You have to qualify it somehow because it's plainly false on the face.

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I'd argue that most of Valve's major additions and features to Steam were half baked when they came out. And most still do not reach the potential and promise of what they should be.

Heck, Big Picture mode still sucks. The UI and interface still feel super awkward, you have limited access to Steam options in BP (can't enable frame rate display for example), and it's buggy on top of all that.

I feel like Valve should be able to do better.

 

[Sub Boss]

Is it wrong i feel relieved this wasn't another story of sexual harrassment?

 

[Aranjah]

As a software engineer / computer engineer who was thinking to get in game development all these rockstar/valve/blizzard/nrs and more horror stories fears me very much

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Makes me want to just start my own studio, but

1. I don't have or know how to get the startup capital.
2. Related to 1, I don't really have a knack (or an interest) for the business side of things.
3. I'm sure every studio says this before they, too, slowly become the thing they set out to destroy.

Which is all depressing in its own way.


In response to the rumor, it sounds like it fits with the studio's output over the years and the other bits and pieces of rumors that I've heard before. I believe it. Over time I have come to think of Valve as "the company that runs Steam" rather than "the dev studio that makes <anything>." I don't mean that as some "lol Valve doesn't make games" slight against them, that's just the way my default association when I hear about them has shifted over time.

 

[Deleted member 5535]

Why doesn't Valve outsource some of their IP's for other people to make?

Honest question. I just wonder why they sit on so many well known properties.

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Because outsourcing still means that you're a publisher who needs to fund a game. If you mean license, then it's another story.

 

[wenis]

This isn't the first time I've heard of the inner workings of valve, both online and within my social circles. Just a failed experiment that somehow stumbled into a way to continue a revenue flow that props it up until the end of time.

Truly glorious.

 

[Crayon]

This isn't the first time I've heard of the inner workings of valve, both online and within my social circles. Just a failed experiment that somehow stumbled into a way to continue a revenue flow that props it up until the end of time.

Truly glorious.

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I don't know if you realize this whole report comes from a random anonymous comment.

But anyway, this hearsay sounds completely plausible from an employee who couldn't hang in there or who found it a bad environment for them. However, that is not an indictment of the environment valve.

This is a completely typical rant from someone who thought they should be great at a job but really wasn't. And also probably got very emotionally run down there trying to make a square peg fit in a round hole.

 

[Wumbo64]

Excellent. I understand this. big picture mode is a treehouse where it could be a castle by now, and the rest.

And I hate to undermine this whole post like this,. I'm not trying to be curt are evasive, but my argument is going to come at this somewhat sideways.

I don't see any other comparable platforms doing significantly more than this as far as activities that improve the platform. Perhaps even none as much as this.

Valve may let some of the features develop slowly or even break, (I've experienced a problem with steam OS wherr a bug broke it after 3 years of problem free use. Presumably because they left a bug hang in there as they moved onto steamos 3.) but just the fact that they're doing this stuff at all I think puts them head and shoulders above even a stellar store like gog... When it come specifically to 'doing something'. Or, reinvesting in the platform to better it.

So that's my argument. I don't see anyone else doing much more than these activities. I think the fact that many are sort of rickety is balanced by the fact that these things exist at all because nobody else is doing them or at least a comprable number of them.

Edit: VVVV hey Jangowuzhere this is the exact same answer id give you

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No, it's totally fair. Valve does DO stuff. I just prefer a few core services that are constantly updated versus adding a bunch of infrastructure that goes derelict eventually.

It is genuinely baffling to me that companies like Epic and Microsoft aren't developing new services that their competitors lack. Thankfully, with GoG 2.0, GoG is finally going to offer something unique beyond how they work out deals to revive stagnant IP. An open source front end for interacting with all of your PC game clients, which is then attached to a well maintained storefront, is something I am eagerly anticipating.

 

[Crayon]

No, it's totally fair. Valve does DO stuff. I just prefer a few core services that are constantly updated versus adding a bunch of infrastructure that goes derelict eventually.

It is genuinely baffling to me that companies like Epic and Microsoft aren't developing new services that their competitors lack. Thankfully, with GoG 2.0, GoG is finally going to offer something unique beyond how they work out deals to revive stagnant IP. An open source front end for interacting with all of your PC game clients, which is then attached to a well maintained storefront, is something I am eagerly anticipating.

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That's what I call doing something. Something constructive, not destructive. Gog has lots of ideas to nicely differentiate themselves. Smart ideas that allow them to coexist with valve just as much as they compete with them. And it appears that they have solid engineering resources, too.

And while their resources may pale next to valve, epic or Microsoft, they can be smart and choose specific areas in which they can exceed steam. Attractions with a certain security because they go against the way steam naturally works.

A huge one is the curation. Gog has a mostly nicely curated store. I know there's been hiccups in that, but mostly I think it's very nice. steam let's every motherfuckin thing on there because that's their strategy. They can't have it both ways with a curated store. Perfect place for Gog to slide in and differentiate, possibly exceed steam.

They are working on a new front end, and there is every chance of it being better than steam's. And who knows what else they're working on. Gog is doing excellent constructive work.

 

[Deleted member 21]

I'm actually in full agreement with you, and I expressed this earlier in the thread. I worked at Valve, and this is fully my take. It ultimately wasn't where I wanted to be long term but it's absolutely for one type of person, and if that's not you, it's a bad relationship for both the company and the employee. You end up with people like from the OP: frustrated and not aligned. I think if you find your speed at Valve, you have unprecedented freedom to create. But not everyone is the right fit.

I think Valve is not without its issues, and the shadow-politics that stem as a result of the lack of structure is not the least of them. Add that to terrible intra-company communication between teams and you've got a "problems they need to solve" stew going. But IMO it's being way exaggerated. By most measures Valve is doing great and some really smart and creative people are working on some really awesome stuff they'll get to show the world when they're ready.

Since confirmation came up just above, if mods need it, they're free to check that my original signup email here was a confirmed @valvesoftware.com email, or I can PM proof of my time there.

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Just as an update, finalflame has contacted us and provided enough evidence about their past as employee of Valve for us to verify them.

 

[Crocks]

Sounds like there's a lot wrong from the POV of people who want games. Doesn't sound like there's much wrong from Valve's POV.

 

[GhostTrick]

Just as an update, finalflame has contacted us and provided enough evidence about their past as employee of Valve for us to verify them.

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Just for the record, does it means, going forward, any unverified internet comment (not even an article) can serve as a base for a thread ?

 

[spineduke]

Just for the record, does it means, going forward, any unverified internet comment (not even an article) can serve as a base for a thread ?

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get ready for a lot of uncle working at nintendo threads

 

[Deleted member 18202]

Just for the record, does it means, going forward, any unverified internet comment (not even an article) can serve as a base for a thread ?

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I'm not sure if there's any confusion here, but I'm not the anon from OP. I'm just some dude who has also worked at Valve and gave my $0.02 in the thread.

 

[Turin Turambar]

There are two Valves when people talk about the company. Valve, the game dev company who pushed for GaaS, mtx, lootboxes, and user made content where they also take a cut; and Valve, the Steam company.

 

[GhostTrick]

I'm not sure if there's any confusion here, but I'm not the anon from OP. I'm just some dude who has also worked at Valve and gave my $0.02 in the thread.

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I know, I'm not talking about you at all. :p
You are verified. It is possible to verify you. What I meant is the original comment in the OP. Which we have NO way to verify, and is passed as information. No one is vouching for that comment, neither any journalist nor the article linked. We're basically taking a random internet comment from someone claiming something that we can verify and pass it as an information.

I was asking admins for the other comment, but yeah, replying to that comment might make think I'm refering to yours, which I didn't :p

 

[Laughing Banana]

Genuinely surprised that people would just believe stuff from an unverified anonymous and use that as a basis for a thread/discussion. Uhh, this is not a whistle-blower situation where, say, we have reputable journalists protecting the identity of their sources, this is just some anonymous person claiming stuff... How do we even know he or she is not making up stuff....??

 

[Prolepro]

So capitalism, greed, and individualism will always win no matter wherever you try to implement communism.

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Greed has no utility or benefit in Communism.

 

[HBK]

Heh, sounds like a regular work environment nowadays.

Higher ups want the pay but not the responsibilities which are supposed to come with them, and it ends up with the work environment being a disorganized mess.

Of course you'll always find either people with blinders, people who just don't give a fuck, or even people who thrive in such a mess. But still. Not exactly what most people expect from a functional work environment.

 

[GhostTrick]

Genuinely surprised that people would just believe stuff from an unverified anonymous and use that as a basis for a thread/discussion. Uhh, this is not a whistle-blower situation where, say, we have reputable journalists protecting the identity of their sources, this is just some anonymous person claiming stuff... How do we even know he or she is not making up stuff....??

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Exactly. And that sets a shitty precedent for threads. That means, following the same pattern, I can react to any news on another site, pretending to be an anonymous source elsewhere where not verified, spouting bullshit and make a thread on ERA.

 

[Deleted member 21]

There've been a lot of threads with anonymous sources that we have locked, and a lot of threads with anonymous sources that we have allowed. To be blunt, it isn't an exact science.

This one was detailed and plausible enough to generate a reasonable discussion and had already done so elsewhere (and did so here as well).

We have a now-verified source who posted on the first page that the substance of the OP is accurate, if somewhat dramatized. Please stay on the topic of that substance, or else leave the thread.

 

[LaTasse]

This testimony match what we've already heard before about the ambiance at Valve. Sounds like hell on Earth.

But while I understand why they gave up on solo games, I'm really sad about the cancellation of L4D3...

 

[baltikr1s]

You don't need ex-employee to know all of these.
I thought this is quite obvious if you ever had anything to do with Steam.

 

[scitek]

Is it wrong i feel relieved this wasn't another story of sexual harrassment?

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Not at all. In fact, when I first clicked the thread, I was expecting something heinous, but we're just talking about something we've already known for years. People have left Valve in the past and aired their issues with the company publicly, so I don't really know why this is being treated as some big sexy
exposé on the company.

 

[Arthands]

This testimony match what we've already heard before about the ambiance at Valve. Sounds like hell on Earth.

But while I understand why they gave up on solo games, I'm really sad about the cancellation of L4D3...

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Maybe the testimony was crafted to match what you have heard, in order to make it believeable.

 

[RedGator]

You can relax. This isn't an EGS thread.

Though frankly, this insight into their corporate culture explains a lot about Steam.

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I guess that 30% is enough to have people running in circles indefinitely.

 

[PrimeBeef]

I don't know if you realize this whole report comes from a random anonymous comment.

But anyway, this hearsay sounds completely plausible from an employee who couldn't hang in there or who found it a bad environment for them. However, that is not an indictment of the environment valve.

This is a completely typical rant from someone who thought they should be great at a job but really wasn't. And also probably got very emotionally run down there trying to make a square peg fit in a round hole.

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That's how I took it. I had this great job opportunity once with this company. It was a sales job and entry level positions could easily make $75K a year. Problem for me was it was all based on how much you were willing to do. There were no hours or office to be at this was all work from home at your own time. What you put in you got out my issue back then was a huge lack of motivation. I'd sleep until 10-11 make a sale or two, then go play some games or out. I made enough to be equivalent of a barely above minimum wage job.

It wasn't for me. Just like valve isn't for everyone in development. And this random anonymous post reads like the person needed structure to succeed. That is definitely not Valves fault. Provided it's even true.

 

[Deleted member 8852]

The problem with a company with no defined job titles or explicit seniority is that there is still seniority, but it is invisible and thus deniable. An example: in my first few months, I was struggling to find a good project and a very senior employee (one of the partners, actually) took me aside and recommended I leave my current team since my heart was clearly not in it and take some time to think about what I really wanted to do, or else I'd get let go. I took his advice seriously, came up with a couple ideas, and then approached him a week or so later to pitch these projects. He got _angry_ at me, stressing that he's not my boss, and that it showed a remarkable lack of initiative that I'd ask someone else at the company what I should work on.

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This upsets me greatly.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

is this geldreich again. this seems like geldreich again.

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Yup, I swear it feels like I already read this a dozen times at least.

 

[mrfusticle]

I've never had time for them since the child gambling CS GO skins bullshit .. Also, there's a distinct Libertarian stench to Newell and Valve.

 

[1-D_FE]

There are very good reasons they're working on both, related to unannounced major efforts.

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It's my theory that with the roll AMD has been on lately, there's going to be a time (in the not so distant future) when it'll be possible for a cheap AMD APU to play the vast majority of the Steam library (through Proton). And when they can make this device small and cheap (maybe 5nm APUs), we'll see an actual Steam machine released (that's produced by Valve).

 

[Crayon]

Omg if its that same guy again, he can do this next month too.

"Ive heard enough stories like this about valve that i know know know its true."

 

[OrdinaryPrime]

Omg if its that same guy again, he can do this next month too.

"Ive heard enough stories like this about valve that i know know know its true."

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I think it's a bit inconsistent of you to get frustrated with people mischaracterizing Valve's contributions to the industry while at the same time running interference the way you are in this thread. Surely you can understand why people look at Valve with suspicion with how they've handled many things in the past. Just blatantly calling this stuff 'fake news' the way you are is pretty disappointing.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

Omg if its that same guy again, he can do this next month too.

"Ive heard enough stories like this about valve that i know know know its true."

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I mean, I don't the story is strictly "false", it's just that when you read between the lines there's a lot of... How to put it? let's say "personal bias" involved.
"No one ever told me what to do but I felt like everyone was bullying me around".
"No one actually forced me to do anything but I personally felt like the implied threat was constantly there".
"A co-worker said to me 'Stop asking me what to do and do whatever you want' and I perceived it as a scold and as a 'You better fall in line or else' ".

You can take this narration at face value or... Well, at least suspect that maybe this person simply wasn't "gelling" well enough with his coworkers at a human, interpersonal level.

 

[Crayon]

I think it's a bit inconsistent of you to get frustrated with people mischaracterizing Valve's contributions to the industry while at the same time running interference the way you are in this thread. Surely you can understand why people look at Valve with suspicion with how they've handled many things in the past. Just blatantly calling this stuff 'fake news' the way you are is pretty disappointing.

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Well then ask me anything and get me crossed up in between my web of contradictions.

 

[mutantmagnet]

That's how I took it. I had this great job opportunity once with this company. It was a sales job and entry level positions could easily make $75K a year. Problem for me was it was all based on how much you were willing to do. There were no hours or office to be at this was all work from home at your own time. What you put in you got out my issue back then was a huge lack of motivation. I'd sleep until 10-11 make a sale or two, then go play some games or out. I made enough to be equivalent of a barely above minimum wage job.

It wasn't for me. Just like valve isn't for everyone in development. And this random anonymous post reads like the person needed structure to succeed. That is definitely not Valves fault. Provided it's even true.

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Eh the lack of structure wasn't the only issue at play here. In an environment like this popularity matters. The guy pointed out he was only in the company for less than 6 months by the time he took the senior partner's advice to heart and came up with his own passion projects.

The barrier to getting those ideas off the ground wasn't simply a structural issue but also an issue related to social dynamics. Older staff members working on their own passion projects or already aligned with a bff coworker aren't going to take time away from their project and a friend's project for a rookie.

One would have to hustle vigorously to find team members and that type of networking is a very rare skill set.

 

[Crayon]

I mean, I don't the story is strictly "false", it's just that when you read between the lines there's a lot of... How to put it? let's say "personal bias" involved.
"No one ever told me what to do but I felt like everyone was bullying me around".
"No one actually forced me to do anything but I personally felt like the implied threat was constantly there".
"A co-worker said to me 'Stop asking me what to do and do whatever you want' and I perceived it as a scold and as a 'You better fall in line or else' ".

You can take this narration at face value or... Well, at least suspect that maybe this person simply wasn't "gelling" well enough with his coworkers at a human, interpersonal level.

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We were talking about that upthread how its totally plausible even tho the source is bogus. Its so common for people to be a bad fit for a job and come away thinking the pkace is a total hellhole.

But it did sound like the same guy as before!

 

[PandaShake]

So it's like when a teacher says it's time to get into groups to work on your projects, but doesn't assign groups so you have to meander around the classroom looking to get in if you're not popular or you're the new kid, but when you ask the teacher for help, they're like what? I'm not your teacher. Figure it out or you'll get expelled for low grades. Sounds awful.