"An advanced city is not one where the poor can get around by car, but one where even the rich use public transportation."

[entremet]

h/t to kottke.org

This is referenced in this article on Tokyo:

Why Tokyo Works | Culture | Metropolis Japan

Understanding what makes Tokyo so special is noticing the aspects of Tokyo’s urban design that make the city so easy to be in.

metropolisjapan.com

For visitors, the scale, density, cleanliness and bright lights dazzle; for locals, the livability, dynamism, variety and safety keep them satisfied. It takes only a few minutes in the metropolis to understand that Tokyo is an impressive place, but it takes a lot longer to understand how it got that way, and why it works so well.

Defining what actually constitutes Tokyo isn't as easy as it might seem. Google gives us a population ranging from 14 million up to 37 million, and satellite images show a sprawling grey mass that extends far past the borders defined as Tokyo. Its 23 wards are generally what make up the city, but as a prefecture, Tokyo includes relatively unpopulated places like the mountainous Okutama region, as well as tiny islands over 1,000 kilometers away. This sprawling area is incredibly economically productive; if it were a country, it would have the world's 10th largest GDP.

Click to shrink...

Tokyo is decentralized. Kengo Kuma, one of Japan's leading architects, describes the city as a "collection of small villages, rather than one big city," and it certainly feels that way. As opposed to urban sprawls like New York or Paris, Tokyo is very literally without a center. Most Western city centers feature a square, a church, a bank or another powerful institution; places people are invited to frequent and are epicenters of activity and crossings. In contrast, the center of Tokyo is, as French philosopher Roland Barhtes described it, a void. Instead of being a space where people gather and businesses operate, it's the Imperial Palace: a giant inaccessible green space surrounded by a moat.

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On trains:

While trains have long been part of Japanese daily life after most of Tokyo was leveled during World War II, Japan had to make a post-war decision to either adopt the American automobile-focused city or to rely on public transportation. Of course, they chose public transportation, likely because of Japan's lack of natural resources like oil. Thus, small towns outside of Tokyo could connect with the denser downtown areas, turning these peripheral areas into liveable, well-connected hubs. This is why Tokyo today is so sprawling, yet so connected. The system was so effective that Tokyo currently has an incredibly low car-ownership rate — 0.54 cars per household — while San Francisco's rate is 1.10 and London's is 0.74.

"A developed country is not a place where the poor have cars. It's where the rich use public transportation," says Colombian politician Gustavo Petro. His quote rings especially true when considering Tokyo's trains. Its rail system is an equalizer between rich and poor. It's usually the fastest way to get from A to B within the city, it's affordable and everyone uses it. There is no stigma attached to riding the train, it's simply the standard.

When it comes to trains, Tokyo functions as a sort of web of smaller centers on the outside connected to larger centers on the inside. At the heart of each of these centers is a train station. For the most part, these stations are, to borrow Barthes' words again, prosaic structures. The center of each area of Tokyo's wards is a train station, but it is generally a utilitarian building that functions only to serve the area around it. It itself is not the highlight; it is what surrounds the stations that makes each location worth visiting.

Click to shrink...

While I live in NYC, the US's biggest metropolis, Tokyo was on a different level when I visited it in terms of walkability. Street codes require private car storage in many areas, unlike NYC which gives away free public space to cars. Cars not only add pollution, including noxious particulates but noise. It's only gotten worse during the pandemic as well.

Big cities simply are not made for large-scale personal vehicle use AND quality of life.

At the same time, Japan is not anticar. They have two massive car companies (Toyota and Honda), lots of gearheads. But they know that you can't build a transportation strategy on car culture alone, especially in dense cities.

 

[Typhon]

I don't know if Japanese collectivism is realistic for most the world.

 

[Sylvestre]

the statement in the title is something that would only be controversial / surprising to americans.

 

[entremet]

I don't know if Japanese collectivism is realistic for most the world.

Click to shrink...

I'm not talking about collectivism, but smart urban planning. You see this outside of Japan too--Europe, South America, etc.

 

[Gernau Morat Gurgeh]

Good ubiquitous public transport makes good cities.

 

[mael]

Well to be fair, it's like the most evident thing ever to anyone NOT living in the US.

 

[Chikor]

I'm not talking about collectivism, but smart urban planning. You see this outside of Japan too--Europe, South America, etc.

Click to shrink...

A lot of countries, with a lot of different cultures, under a lot of very different economic systems managed to build good public transportation.
If the USSR, Taiwan, France, Japan and Singapore (to name a few) managed to do that, maybe it's not something specific about their culture that allows countries to build subways.

I don't think it's mystery btw, I think the problem in the US is not culture, it's that bribery is legal and the auto and gas industry bribed to US government to invest mostly in cars.

 

[Steven]

Probably makes sense. But as a filthy American, I can't stand public transport. It was always late and I was worse off for it. When I lived in the Bay Area for a year, taking BART or other public transport was an awful experience.

 

[entremet]

A lot of countries, with a lot of different cultures, under a lot of very different economic systems managed to build good public transportation.
If the USSR, Taiwan, France, Japan and Singapore (to name a few) managed to do that, maybe it's not something specific about their culture that allows countries to build subways.

I don't think it's mystery btw, I think the problem in the US is not culture, it's that bribery is legal and the auto and gas industry bribed to US government to invest mostly in cars.

Click to shrink...

Right. Decimating the character of many cities too.

 

[Dyle]

Well yeah. The problem is how to get there and there's no good answers. If you're already there, good for you, if you're decades and decades of development away how do you get there? How do you get people to sign on when all of the transit most people have ever used in your area is hot garbage? How do you reverse that?

So far we've had nothing but failure on this side of the pond, the people in power to make things better just don't care and normal people can't envision anything else but the status quo.

 

[entremet]

Well yeah. The problem is how to get there and there's no good answers. If you're already there, good for you, if you're decades and decades of development away how do you get there? How do you get people to sign on when all of the transit most people have ever used in your area is hot garbage? How do you reverse that?

So far we've had nothing but failure on this side of the pond, the people in power to make things better just don't care.

Click to shrink...

It's happening on small scale in the US.

Cities For People Not Cars | Culdesac

Culdesac builds car-free neighborhoods from scratch. Come live at the first car-free neighborhood in the US - Culdesac Tempe (Phoenix) - 1000 people, 0 cars.

culdesac.com

 

[Dr. Monkey]

I don't think it's mystery btw, I think the problem in the US is not culture, it's that bribery is legal and the auto and gas industry bribed to US government to invest mostly in cars.

Click to shrink...

Mm, I think it's definitely tied to individualism. Having to "rely" is unAmerican! /barf I don't disagree, though - you are correct in that there are backroom deals to entrench certain approaches, but individualism gets fanned to support that, too.

 

[Chikor]

Right. Decimating the character of many cities too.

Click to shrink...

It's a tragedy.

I honestly think most American just don't realize how much better it could be.

 

[Doomguy Fieri]

I don't know if Japanese collectivism is realistic for most the world.

Click to shrink...

Trains are socialist

 

[Bony Manifesto]

The UK must be on some super-advanced shit, because here it's only the wealthy that can afford to regularly use trains!

 

[Gay Bowser]

Probably makes sense. But as a filthy American, I can't stand public transport. It was always late and I was worse off for it. When I lived in the Bay Area for a year, taking BART or other public transport was an awful experience.

Click to shrink...

We have this weird cycle in the US where our public transit is perpetually underfunded and largely sucks, which means that people hate it and anyone who can possibly afford to avoid using it does so, which leads to people not wanting to fund it, which leads to more people not wanting to ride it, and so on.

There are only a few places in the country where public transit is seen as something that a non-impoverished person might choose to regularly use instead of owning a car. In the vast majority of US cities, public transportation amounts to basically a token effort compared to what it's like in many Europe and Asian cities.

Elsewhere, public transportation is seen as a vital part – the vital part – of a cities infrastructure. Here, it's a nice-to-have, a charity thing, a bone we throw to the poor and less fortunate, like a homeless shelter. Until that attitude changes, until we start building systems capable of genuinely replacing automobile use for many instead of just paying lip service to the idea with token systems that are practically built to be punitive, public transport in the US will suck.

 

[Divvy]

Relevant:

 

[Chikor]

Mm, I think it's definitely tied to individualism. Having to "rely" is unAmerican! /barf I don't disagree, though - you are correct in that there are backroom deals to entrench certain approaches, but individualism gets fanned to support that, too.

Click to shrink...

The myth of rugged individualism is how Americans are being sold a whole lot of bullshit, that is without a doubt true.
But it wasn't like there was a grassroot movement in the US to kill public transportation. And the enemy of public transportation investment these days are corporate interests first and foremost.

 

[entremet]

We have this weird cycle in the US where our public transit is perpetually underfunded and largely sucks, which means that people hate it and anyone who can possibly afford to avoid using it does so, which leads to people not wanting to fund it, which leads to more people not wanting to ride it, and so on.

There are only a few places in the country where public transit is seen as something that a non-impoverished person might choose to regularly use instead of owning a car. In the vast majority of US cities, public transportation amounts to basically a token effort compared to what it's like in many Europe and Asian cities.

Click to shrink...

The US, in general, has had an anti-urban streak since its founding.

The first suburbs were basically a white America-only social program, which later concentrated generational wealth. Read Color of Law for more info.

 

[Dyle]

It's happening on small scale in the US.

Cities For People Not Cars | Culdesac

Culdesac builds car-free neighborhoods from scratch. Come live at the first car-free neighborhood in the US - Culdesac Tempe (Phoenix) - 1000 people, 0 cars.

culdesac.com

Click to shrink...

Small scale experiments does mean much in the grand scheme of things. You need to completely rebuild our entire urban fabric and if it goes at this rate we'll be all be dead long before most of us can live in a walkable place

 

[entremet]

Small scale experiments does mean much in the grand scheme of things. You need to completely rebuild our entire urban fabric and if it goes at this rate we'll be all be dead long before most of us can live in a walkable place

Click to shrink...

Honestly? It won't happen. The US can barely invest in the current public infrastructure.

My advice is for those that want more walkability is to get involved in local poltics.

 

[Divvy]

The path forward is to reclaim space taken by car infrastructure. A lot of city space was bulldozed for parking space last century and taking those back, reducing road space, will limit the viability of cars and force people onto transit where governments will be obliged to improve. Covid actually helped in this regard here in Toronto where it convinced city council to reclaim lanes on the roads for bike lanes or patio space for restaurants. At least here, things feel like they're moving in the right direction despite being woefully shitty for the last few decades.

The US, in general, has had an anti-urban streak since its founding.

The first suburbs were basically a white America-only social program, which later concentrated generational wealth. Read Color of Law for more info.

Click to shrink...

Suburbs are also a massive ponzi scheme where they need to keep constantly growing to pay off the maintenance on older suburbs or else the city goes bankrupt

 

[Ryuelli]

I've said it numerous times on this website before, but I lived in the suburbs of Seoul for a few years and I'd give anything to live in a place that has public transportation that accessible again. I grew up (and currently live in) the suburbs of Houston, and the public transportation is BY FAR my favorite thing I experienced in Korea. It was life changing, I quite literally get a bit depressed when I realize what I lost coming back here. I abhor driving, and in Houston driving is a necessity.

I desperately want to move somewhere where I don't have to drive, but I'm not exactly sure where that is in North America (or, not sure where I'd be able to afford). I would absolutely be willing to move outside of this continent, but that's always easier said than done.

 

[mael]

A lot of countries, with a lot of different cultures, under a lot of very different economic systems managed to build good public transportation.
If the USSR, Taiwan, France, Japan and Singapore (to name a few) managed to do that, maybe it's not something specific about their culture that allows countries to build subways.

I don't think it's mystery btw, I think the problem in the US is not culture, it's that bribery is legal and the auto and gas industry bribed to US government to invest mostly in cars.

Click to shrink...

Heck in some cases, you're not even talking about subways!
Take the city of Bordeaux in the Southwest of France.
That was early XXth century

At the height of this system, it covered well over what is considered the current metropolis of Bordeaux

Then Bordeaux got this guy as Mayor

(Jacques Chaban Delmas, former prime minister under Pompidou so like #2 in the country at 1 point in the 70s).

And that dude basically stripped the tramway out of the city right out, the last tramway line was closed in 1958 (which is around when tramways fell out of favor in France btw)


By 1970, the city was congested to the point of saturation so they're looking at how to build an alternative and settle on a sorta subway system.
That's frozen by 1991 because shit is super expensive and wouldn't even managed to serve the college or where most people live....on top of that Bordeaux is build on a swamp so it's not exactly the best idea to try to dig a transportation system when a lot of construction don't have the most solid fundations ever.
I distinctly remember that project falling through after multiple buildings threatened to fall over once they started going forward.
Stupid shit really.

Then they took like 10 years to settle on a tram system

(same picture as above but like a whole goddamn century later)

this is the end result, it covers like a 10% if even that of the system that was torn down in 1958 but the bus system is so well developed that it's no longer a pain to use anymore.

Of course if they didn't just stupidly tore down the old system for no reason, we might have gotten a good transportation system decades earlier.

My point is that even in public transportation heaven like France, it's absolutely not a given that public transportation would be any good.
I can tell you that Bordeaux was a goddamn shitplace to travel if you didn't have a car up till 20 years ago.
It wasn't a given that the situation would improve as the literal decades of shit the city had to wade through can attest and also any solution WILL take decades to result in a tangible solution.

You could take a city as car centered as Phoenix today and make it a public transportation heaven that even manages to serve the suburbs but it WILL take decades of constant political will to ever materialize.

 

[Pau]

Probably the number reason I would want to move out of the United States.

I'm in a small city outside of NYC so it could be worse. But I know the equivalent in a lot of other countries have much better public transit options.

 

[Chikor]

I've said it numerous times on this website before, but I lived in the suburbs of Seoul for a few years and I'd give anything to live in a place that has public transportation that accessible again. I grew up (and currently live in) the suburbs of Houston, and the public transportation is BY FAR my favorite thing I experienced in Korea. It was life changing, I quite literally get a bit depressed when I realize what I lost coming back here. I abhor driving, and in Houston driving is a necessity.

I desperately want to move somewhere where I don't have to drive, but I'm not exactly sure where that is in North America (or, not sure where I'd be able to afford).

Click to shrink...

I swear if we sent Americans to live 3 months abroad in a city that has a proper subway system, it will do a lot of good.
People really don't know what possible, and I met quite people who were otherwise quite conservative but became huge cheerleaders for public transportation after living in a place that had a good one.

 

[FrenchToastDisciple]

People like walkable neighborhoods. That's one of the reasons it's so damn expensive to live in nice neighborhoods within urban spaces in the U.S. and Canada. The issue, however, is that for any normal middle class person to own property today (which is now one of the only investments open to the middle class), you largely have to live in a non walkable, transit light or free suburb or rural area.

People who want to reverse this trend need to advocate for affordable housing everywhere and show up when streets are being reconstructed so that everywhere there exists gradual, slow pressure to get neighborhoods more walking, cycling, and transit friendly. You can still have a car if you need one and own your house, but that doesn't mean your whole neighborhood can't be more accessible and connected to all.

 

[Chikor]

Heck in some cases, you're not even talking about subways!
Take the city of Bordeaux in the Southwest of France.
That was early XXth century

At the height of this system, it covered well over what is considered the current metropolis of Bordeaux

Then Bordeaux got this guy as Mayor

(Jacques Chaban Delmas, former prime minister under Pompidou so like #2 in the country at 1 point in the 70s).

And that dude basically stripped the tramway out of the city right out, the last tramway line was closed in 1958 (which is around when tramways fell out of favor in France btw)


By 1970, the city was congested to the point of saturation so they're looking at how to build an alternative and settle on a sorta subway system.
That's frozen by 1991 because shit is super expensive and wouldn't even managed to serve the college or where most people live....on top of that Bordeaux is build on a swamp so it's not exactly the best idea to try to dig a transportation system when a lot of construction don't have the most solid fundations ever.
I distinctly remember that project falling through after multiple buildings threatened to fall over once they started going forward.
Stupid shit really.

Then they took like 10 years to settle on a tram system

(same picture as above but like a whole goddamn century later)

this is the end result, it covers like a 10% if even that of the system that was torn down in 1958 but the bus system is so well developed that it's no longer a pain to use anymore.

Of course if they didn't just stupidly tore down the old system for no reason, we might have gotten a good transportation system decades earlier.

My point is that even in public transportation heaven like France, it's absolutely not a given that public transportation would be any good.
I can tell you that Bordeaux was a goddamn shitplace to travel if you didn't have a car up till 20 years ago.
It wasn't a given that the situation would improve as the literal decades of shit the city had to wade through can attest and also any solution WILL take decades to result in a tangible solution.

You could take a city as car centered as Phoenix today and make it a public transportation heaven that even manages to serve the suburbs but it WILL take decades of constant political will to ever materialize.

Click to shrink...

Oh for sure, I was thinking about a country ability to do good public transportation, which France showed it can, in Paris and elsewhere. I don't think there is any country in the world where all the cities has great public transportation.
Well, outside Singapore lol

 

[Cenauru]

Not Just Bikes also has a great video on how the overuse of personal vehicles in cities causes so much noise pollution that's actively harming us, both with our hearing and via stress

 

[tadaima]

I know a ton of wealthy people (7 - 8+ USD figures) in Tokyo and almost all of them get around by taxi.

It is a highly connected city by rail, but you can catch a taxi from anywhere within seconds.

 

[Kill3r7]

Property laws and construction costs are also something that isn't considered in these discussions. We are about to find out how much that NYC/NJ tunnel really costs soon enough.

The path forward is to reclaim space taken by car infrastructure. A lot of city space was bulldozed for parking space last century and taking those back, reducing road space, will limit the viability of cars and force people onto transit where governments will be obliged to improve. Covid actually helped in this regard here in Toronto where it convinced city council to reclaim lanes on the roads for bike lanes or patio space for restaurants. At least here, things feel like they're moving in the right direction despite being woefully shitty for the last few decades.


Suburbs are also a massive ponzi scheme where they need to keep constantly growing to pay off the maintenance on older suburbs or else the city goes bankrupt

Click to shrink...

If they taxed more in line with cities it wouldn't be as big a deal but folks in suburbs have a real aversion to any tax increases.

 

[mbpm]

The kottke podcast is a chill time

 

[EloquentM]

It's a tragedy.

I honestly think most American just don't realize how much better it could be.

Click to shrink...

it's so frustrating considering how rich we are as a country.

 

[mael]

Oh for sure, I was thinking about a country ability to do good public transportation, which France showed it can, in Paris and elsewhere. I don't think there is any country in the world where all the cities has great public transportation.
Well, outside Singapore lol

Click to shrink...

And even I am just talking about 1 city in France.
The intercity situation in France is fantastic between big cities and a goddamn atrocity EVERYWHERE else.
Wanna go from Bordeaux to Paris?

There's a train that will get you there in 2 hours flat.
Not too expensive as well

Paris-Marseille?
That's like 3 hrs train ride?

Wanna do Bordeaux-Marseille though?
You either go through Paris or you're gonna take way longer than you would think.
Also small towns are very badly connected, you would think it's in the US with how badly connected some of them are.

So as far as public transportation there's really 2 issues,
how do live in the city you're in?
how do you get to the city you're in?

using again the example of Phoenix, you take a plane to get to Phoenix or you drive there.
Once you're in Phoenix, if you're not in the Tempe campus, you better get a car.

There's also the inter country travels, since we're talking EU.
It's actually super easy to travel by train in the EU and it can be relatively cheap too!
Bruxelles is a short train ride away from Paris....which is also a train ride away from London.
Getting to Germany is a bit complex but certainly easier than on car.
Spain is also a possible travel destination that is easy to get to on train.
Contraste and compare with the hellscape that is the US....

 

[Starwing]

I swear if we sent Americans to live 3 months abroad in a city that has a proper subway system, it will do a lot of good.
People really don't know what possible, and I met quite people who were otherwise quite conservative but became huge cheerleaders for public transportation after living in a place that had a good one.

Click to shrink...

I haven't been anywhere outside of the US and I would kill for something better than we have here in NYC. I get so jealous looking at other public transit systems in other countries and as much as I like cars and driving, I did it once here and I'm never going to do it again after I get my license.

 

[turbobrick]

I know a ton of wealthy people (7 - 8+ USD figures) in Tokyo and almost all of them get around by taxi.

It is a highly connected city by rail, but you can catch a taxi from anywhere within seconds.

Click to shrink...

They must be rich, because taxis there are expensive AF

 

[DorkLord54]

A lot of countries, with a lot of different cultures, under a lot of very different economic systems managed to build good public transportation.
If the USSR, Taiwan, France, Japan and Singapore (to name a few) managed to do that, maybe it's not something specific about their culture that allows countries to build subways.

I don't think it's mystery btw, I think the problem in the US is not culture, it's that bribery is legal and the auto and gas industry bribed to US government to invest mostly in cars.

Click to shrink...

It is a cultural problem to the extent that there are many Americans who are skeptical of increased spending on transportation, whether that be due to racial animus that is the common reason in places like suburban Baltimore and Metro Detroit, or loathing of raising taxes for infrastructure reforms.

 

[Vilam]

I honestly think most American just don't realize how much better it could be.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, if only I could be packed into public transit with all manner of awful people and be limited by the system's schedule and reach to determine where I can go and when I can go there. Sounds so much better.

 

[Mezentine]

Yeah, if only I could be packed into public transit with all manner of awful people and be limited by the system's schedule and reach to determine where I can go and when I can go there. Sounds so much better.

Click to shrink...

Tell us how you really feel about people who use transit

 

[Vilam]

Tell us how you really feel about people who use transit

Click to shrink...

Awful people come from all walks of life; try again.

 

[Chikor]

It is a cultural problem to the extent that there are many Americans who are skeptical of increased spending on transportation, whether that be due to racial animus that is the common reason in places like suburban Baltimore and Metro Detroit, or loathing of raising taxes for infrastructure reforms.

Click to shrink...

I live in Seattle, and for literally decades the city tried to get some sort of a subway thing going, and was sabotaged and delayed and ballot-measured, for years and years.
And then they finally managed to finish one line, like the bare minimum, but they made it pretty decent.
Every since pretty much expansion proposals became something very popular and very viable politically.

I don't know that I've been to any city that had good public transportation system that wasn't overwhelmingly popular with the public.

If you built a good one, they will come, politically too. I truly believe that.

 

[Encephalon]

I never want to have to drive again.

 

[Mik2121]

Definitely agree with the thinking. I'm from Madrid and public transport there is pretty great too, even if there's a bit of a specific center where people gather more. It's not like Tokyo doesn't have that, though, it just happens to be that it has MANY centers (Shibuya, Shinjuku, Shinagawa etc …) that are the size of a normal city's city center.

Im surprised by this quote, though:

Most Western city centers feature a square, a church, a bank or another powerful institution; places people are invited to frequent and are epicenters of activity and crossings.

Click to shrink...

A square…? A church…? This is not the Middle Ages, lmao. Tokyo has tons of square areas where people gather and temples and, uh… banks. And again, many are on those epicenters.
US towns are badly built and that's it. European towns have that stuff and public transport is generally pretty good.

 

[solidstatesurvivor]

I want this more than almost anything else. One of my main goals in life is to avoid driving as much as possible. One of (but not the only) reason why I'll sadly probably never move back to my home state.

 

[Mezentine]

Awful people come from all walks of life; try again.

Click to shrink...

What makes the people on transit "awful", exactly?

 

[Astral Lovelace]

Probably makes sense. But as a filthy American, I can't stand public transport. It was always late and I was worse off for it. When I lived in the Bay Area for a year, taking BART or other public transport was an awful experience.

Click to shrink...

And in Japan, the trains are so well scheduled that Google maps was able to tell me with accuracy of a few seconds when the train was arriving.

 

[squall23]

Everybody has a plan for better transit and less cars in cities until they realize some people live in -20 celcius or below winters.

 

[anaa]

Probably makes sense. But as a filthy American, I can't stand public transport. It was always late and I was worse off for it. When I lived in the Bay Area for a year, taking BART or other public transport was an awful experience.

Click to shrink...

bart sucks and is nothing like the public transportation system in japan

 

[turbobrick]

Everybody has a plan for better transit and less cars in cities until they realize some people live in -20 celcius or below winters.

Click to shrink...

Or hot and awful summers. I don't want to walk anywhere when its really hot and or humid

 

[chiller]

It's a tragedy.

I honestly think most American just don't realize how much better it could be.

Click to shrink...

I was watching Who Framed Roger Rabbit the other day, and had never realized that the villain's plan against streetcars was actually a real thing.

Everybody has a plan for better transit and less cars in cities until they realize some people live in -20 celcius or below winters.

Click to shrink...

The CTA manages to run (mostly) fine in the winter.