Activists toppled the Junipero Serra statue in Golden Gate Park in San Francisco

[Metallix87]

what would honestly he so bad with removing statues, renaming monuments/schools/etc..., taking slave owners off the money, and limiting paintings and the like of actual historical significance to museums? Like what would you actually lose?

People cheer when the confederate flag is taken down (it only took 200 years let's pat ourselves on the back for that one) and when monuments to confederate soldiers, the people who fought to keep slavery, are torn apart, so why is the thought of not honoring and glorifying slave owners, people who participated and profited from the brutalization of an entire peoples for hundreds of years, suddenly a bridge too far?

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The Confederacy is an easy target because they were the "bad guys". Only white supremacists feel otherwise at this point. The American people generally have a strong reverence for our history, regardless of the darker aspects of it, and you'll have a harder time convincing them that it should equally be condemned.

 

[TaleSpun]

 

[Garlador]

I hate this argument of "giving the other side ammunition". Just this week you have fox news faking news coverage in Seattle, last week they made a 75 year old man into an Antifa soldier. They make shit up anyways, so who gives a fuck.

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Because there is a legitimate reason to discuss the complicated and debated legacy of someone that is both hated and loved by the same cultural group of people.

His history isn't fake news. The point with "giving them ammunition" is that fake news that is baseless is mostly ineffective, but legit news with merit is significantly more damaging. It's why they continue to champion the rioters and looters as being more of a threat to the police and why minority leaders have openly disavowed the movement from those actions. It's why every time someone ever mentions "black on black" crime being statistically worse than "cop on black" crimes, even though it's never an argument argued in good faith.

Even if they internally agree that rioting and damaging property can get results (I certainly do), there is a reason you don't let that take over the narrative, because there are sadly enough moderates out there who can change the tide, and, hell, even many of the businesses and politicians taking action now NEVER would have done so if they thought they could weasel their way out of it.

Tearing down Grant's statue isn't fake news. It's real news. Tearing down statues of a Spanish missionary that the Native American community is split over is real news. As I already said, as a Native American most affected by historic colonialism, I don't want this lumped in with the BLM movement because I feel it has significantly different qualifiers, cultural history, and lack of consensus.

But don't think for one moment I'm not saying the conversation shouldn't happen (it's happening here, for instance, and I've been involved in it elsewhere at a local level). I'm with Clancy Brown's statement - I honestly don't know how I feel about this one. As stated, you're not going to find a lot of defense from minorities for statues of Robert E. Lee, but you will find a lot of defenders - including a sizable portion of the Native American community - defending Junipero Serra.

 

[Night]

The Confederacy is an easy target because they were the "bad guys". Only white supremacists feel otherwise at this point. The American people generally have a strong reverence for our history, regardless of the darker aspects of it, and you'll have a harder time convincing them that it should equally be condemned.

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Said better than I could muster.

Is an "ally" something you get to call yourself or something that other people should consider and call you?

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Never thought I'd have to actually defend my status as an ally. I've earned my right to call myself that, thank you. I've protested in both Tampa and St. Pete. I've lost friends because of this. Nothing said to me here is going to change any of that, either. I'm still gonna fight for black lives every day.

 

[Elegant Weapon]

They didn't "own slaves", they enslaved people who they choose to believe were not fully human.

But we are humans and we're still around!

I would say it's either the collective neglected and continually denied humanity of native & black Americans OR these statues but clearly we are pretty disposable and we wouldn't win that ultimatum

My thing is how many people pretend American history as presented should be upheld as truth and worshipped, but also never heard of Black Wall Street until anHBO show or Juneteenth until this year.
I don't think these people actually care about history, they're just comfortable with white supremacy.

Never thought I'd have to actually defend my status as an ally. I've earned my right to call myself that, thank you. I've protested in both Tampa and St. Pete. I've lost friends because of this. Nothing said to me here is going to change any of that, either. I'm still gonna fight for black lives every day.

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you're actively right now defending someone who owned black people while saying black lives matter out the other side of your mouth

do some inner work on that, "ally"

 

[Deleted member 7130]

Totally fine with all monuments to slavery and colonialism going down (that includes Washington and colonizing priests). Full stop

I won't sweat Grant. "Collateral damage"

Whatever, keep going.

 

[Akainu]

The Confederacy is an easy target because they were the "bad guys". Only white supremacists feel otherwise at this point. The American people generally have a strong reverence for our history, regardless of the darker aspects of it, and you'll have a harder time convincing them that it should equally be condemned.

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Regardless of the darker aspects? They are usually either completely ignored or massively glossed over.

 

[Speevy]

I think it's incumbent upon leaders to take down statues of bad historical figures.

Whether some good statues are getting torn down, well, that's just how it goes. Build another one.

 

[Lobster Roll]

I disagree with taking down Washington. Yes, he was a slave owner, and wasn't that great a general, but he was a universally loved President otherwise, and still a Revolutionary hero. It's ignoring all the good he did for this bad thing.

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Lmao come on. "Yes, he was a slave owner" isn't a great way to start a sentence where you defend somebody.

 

[Metallix87]

Regardless of the darker aspects? They are usually either completely ignored or massively glossed over.

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That's why I said "regardless of the darker aspects", yes.

 

[vastag]

I snapped a pic of the Cervantes monument yesterday during my jog.

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What's the deal with the racist symbols in Cervantes statue?

 

[El Bombastico]

"Fun" fact according to my undergrad history professor. Not only were the Spanish California missions a horrible place of abuse for native Americans, it was also a dumping grounds for priests that were known pedophiles/rapists within the Catholic Church. My professor did a lot of research on the subject but any time she attempted to publish her findings she was immediately rejected by the university...

 

[dabig2]

This whole thread I've had that old Chappelle bit running in my head, with time-traveling to the past with a white friend and seeing George Washington:



"Oh my god Dave, look, it's George Washington! Father of this great nation. I'm going to go shake his hand."

"Run nigga! It's George Washington!"


Screw George and screw the mythologizing and quasi-deification of these old assholes who knew back then that they were being assholes. The way folks talk about the founding fathers, you'd think we were talking about ancient Mesopotamia. They just didn't know! They just didn't have the framework that the woke present does!

If you want to build monuments to something, build it to the faceless oppressed who were denied human rights. Build one to GW's enslaved cook Hercules who escaped to freedom, or maybe to Herc's children who were kept enslaved and divided up after Martha's death. Give me more Frederick Douglass statues.

Build ones for the lakota tribe that Grant severely screwed over, to say the least, when he began his illegal and phony bloody conflict to make it easier for white miners to plunder their stolen land.

Or if you want to keep up GW and Jefferson statues, then each existing one must be matched with a statue/memorial to dudes like John Brown and Nat Turner.

 

[Xpike]

I disagree with taking down Washington. Yes, he was a slave owner, and wasn't that great a general, but he was a universally loved President otherwise, and still a Revolutionary hero. It's ignoring all the good he did for this bad thing.

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"He owned black people but" is not a good argument

 

[Toxi]

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As someone who respects Grant for what he did, I have no problem seeing a statue of him torn down, especially given his history as a slave owner. It's a hunk of metal. If we actually want to respect Grant, we should continue the good things he started and was prevented from doing by his own party.

We should also probably stop dragging his presidency through the mud in US history textbooks.

 

[TheMango55]

As I mentioned in another thread, within 100 years people will be tearing down statues of anyone who ate the flesh of other thinking beings and contributed to the destruction of the planet by operating an internal combustion engine.

Might as well just get a head start if that's where we are going.

 

[Garlador]

Lmao come on. "Yes, he was a slave owner" isn't a great way to start a sentence where you defend somebody.

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*sigh* In defense, people mature, evolve, grow, and can become better people, so the story of a former slave owner who then freed his slaves and lead an entire war to free them is indeed a more nuanced portrayal of someone like Grant than just removing the nuance of his former status.

We have statues of John Newton, who you could call a former slave ship captain... and who utterly changed his life around and was one of the most instrumental leaders of the abolitionist movement. Referencing a starting point but not their change is not productive.

 

[Deleted member 7130]

Activism and direct action is not about doing things within a comfort zone that appeals to popularity. You don't take a national poll before taking down a statue. The objective is to make a statement to make people question, make them uncomfortable on purpose, and broaden what is "acceptable". Fuck your statues

lol

 

[Xaszatm]

As I mentioned in another thread, within 100 years people will be tearing down statues of anyone who ate the flesh of other thinking beings and contributed to the destruction of the planet by operating an internal combustion engine.

Might as well just get a head start if that's where we are going.

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Are you serious right now?

 

[Mekanos]

As I mentioned in another thread, within 100 years people will be tearing down statues of anyone who ate the flesh of other thinking beings and contributed to the destruction of the planet by operating an internal combustion engine.

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Yeah? So what?

 

[El Bombastico]

We shouldn't build statues of anyone, especially politicians. Mal from Firefly was right...

 

[Metallix87]

Activism and direct action is not about doing things within a comfort zone that appeals to popularity. You don't take a national poll before taking down a statue. The objective is to make a statement to make people question, make them uncomfortable on purpose, and broaden what is "acceptable". Fuck your statues

lol

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I think the point of activism is to try to change public opinion on pressing matters. Whether or not these actions push the needle in the direction these protesters are aiming for remains to be seen, but I think this is definitely a touchy subject for a lot of Americans, and thus a risky move.

 

[Deleted member 2226]

Almost like mob action quickly gravitates towards the most extreme actors that doesn't actually reflect the popular will.

As I mentioned in another thread, within 100 years people will be tearing down statues of anyone who ate the flesh of other thinking beings and contributed to the destruction of the planet by operating an internal combustion engine.

Might as well just get a head start if that's where we are going.

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The only way I can see justifying tearing down all the statues of "bad people" is if you believe there shouldn't be statues of anyone.

Alternatively, I'd like to see the list of people they think are without sin.

There is probably no one from 19th century america that would meet the standards of today, but Grant is probably as close as you're going to get. I'd encourage people to read his biography from Chernow.

EDIT- I was only thinking of the specific issue of slavery. His legacy on Native American issues is a different story entirely.

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Thaddeus Stevens is probably one of the few midcentury abolitionists you could transport to the 20th century and he wouldn't be killing people for miscegenation, so there's that.

 

[Stone Cold]

It is getting to a point where I think we should be focusing mostly on Confederate statues and monuments specifically erected to intimidate Black people by the Daughters of the Confederacy... I feel like this is starting to muddy the conversation and I would like to avoid that.

Stuff like this and the Washington statue may have merits in their removal, but I personally think this isn't the battle to have at this point.

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Fuck Washington, take him off the dollar too while we're at it. Him and all the other Slave owning bastards. Put MLK on his dollar

 

[Akainu]

As I mentioned in another thread, within 100 years people will be tearing down statues of anyone who ate the flesh of other thinking beings and contributed to the destruction of the planet by operating an internal combustion engine.

Might as well just get a head start if that's where we are going.

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Are there any Ford statues yes we should get rid of them.

 

[Night]

you're actively right now defending someone who owned black people while saying black lives matter out the other side of your mouth

do some inner work on that, "ally"

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Whether I agree with you or not on removing the statues of our founding fathers, it's not my call. Wherever the movement goes, I'll follow and support.

Thanks for your input, it's not on deaf ears, but I think broadening the scope like this is a potentially grave error for keeping the majority on our side. Nevertheless, we shall persist.

 

[Xaszatm]

The only way I can see justifying tearing down all the statues of "bad people" is if you believe there shouldn't be statues of anyone.

Alternatively, I'd like to see the list of people they think are without sin.

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Why yes let's not build statues actually. And lol talking about being without sin. I ain't asking them to put a statue of me in their place.

 

[JCG]

Activism and direct action is not about doing things within a comfort zone that appeals to popularity. You don't take a national poll before taking down a statue. The objective is to make a statement to make people question, make them uncomfortable on purpose, and broaden what is "acceptable". Fuck your statues

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If the underlying objective isn't achieved and the action becomes counter-productive due to high resistance among the population or movement, then the chosen tactic has failed.

Making people uncomfortable is only useful if they will reflect on the issue and move in a constructive direction after the fact. There are times and places where that's unlikely.

 

[Toxi]

*sigh* In defense, people mature, evolve, grow, and can become better people, so the story of a former slave owner who then freed his slaves and lead an entire war to free them is indeed a more nuanced portrayal of someone like Grant than just removing the nuance of his former status.

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You have to look at the national context. Yes, Grant became a better person and fought for important causes, but we're in a country where reconstruction was sabotaged. We're in a country where public schools teach about Grant as a drunk nincompoop. We 're in a country lousy with monuments to the traitors Grant led a war against. And most importantly, we're in a country where black Americans and native Americans still suffer violence and suppression.

Because our nation stifled the progress Grant fought for, a monument to him just becomes a monument to another white slave-owner. Until we come to terms with the ugliness of our past and actually purge our demons, we can't celebrate the good in it.

 

[gcwy]

Good.

 

[Luminish]

What's the deal with the racist symbols in Cervantes statue?

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Oh right. Forgot celtic cross is sometimes a nazi thing for whatever dumb reason. So we can probably assume BLM protestors didn't deface that one, unless Cervantes has some sort of problematic history with irish people.

 

[Untzillatx]

It's sort of disgusting how much J.Serra is littered around the state.

The dude oversaw the use of Native American slaves to build his missions then straight up retconned the fact that he killed hundreds of thousands of them to expand the Catholic religion.

They need to rename the hundreds of streets in the state named after him too.

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There's probably hundred of statues and places named after Serra across northern Mexico - including a city named after him. So that's going to be hard work. Also many statues in his hometown back in Majorca.

What's the deal with the racist symbols in Cervantes statue?

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I thought it represented a gun sight, not a cross, like:

I've seen it before painted when wanting to mark something as an 'objective'.

 

[Redcrayon]

What was the symbolism behind spraypainting the statue of Cervantes with red eyes?

 

[Heshinsi]

?????

Can someone explain this? It's not a well known fact but Cervantes was, for a short period of time, a slave itself.

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That symbol when I looked it up is also used in modern times by White supremacists.

This whole thread I've had that old Chappelle bit running in my head, with time-traveling to the past with a white friend and seeing George Washington:



"Oh my god Dave, look, it's George Washington! Father of this great nation. I'm going to go shake his hand."

"Run nigga! It's George Washington!"


Screw George and screw the mythologizing and quasi-deification of these old assholes who knew back then that they were being assholes. The way folks talk about the founding fathers, you'd think we were talking about ancient Mesopotamia. They just didn't know! They just didn't have the framework that the woke present does!

If you want to build monuments to something, build it to the faceless oppressed who were denied human rights. Build one to GW's enslaved cook Hercules who escaped to freedom, or maybe to Herc's children who were kept enslaved and divided up after Martha's death. Give me more Frederick Douglass statues.

Build ones for the lakota tribe that Grant severely screwed over, to say the least, when he began his illegal and phony bloody conflict to make it easier for white miners to plunder their stolen land.

Or if you want to keep up GW and Jefferson statues, then each existing one must be matched with a statue/memorial to dudes like John Brown and Nat Turner.

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The part where the American government and the American people have no qualms removing the statues and erasing the faces from currencies of fallen dictators and brutalisers of the countries US troops invade, but then can't seem to understand why oppressed people in America would want the same thing done for America's collection of past despicable leaders is on point.

Even assholes like Gaddafi and Saddam Hussein had their supporters and admirers for the supposed good they did for those people. That means shit all for the people who suffered under them and because of them.

 

[Buckle]

Someone in Pittsburgh check on the Mr. Rogers statue.

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Protestors have installed turrets to protect it.

 

[gcwy]

As I mentioned in another thread, within 100 years people will be tearing down statues of anyone who ate the flesh of other thinking beings and contributed to the destruction of the planet by operating an internal combustion engine.

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And why is that a problem? Also, what's the point of speculating about the future

 

[Elegant Weapon]

Whether I agree with you or not on removing the statues of our founding fathers, it's not my call. Wherever the movement goes, I'll follow and support.

Thanks for your input, it's not on deaf ears, but I think broadening the scope like this is a potentially grave error for keeping the majority on our side. Nevertheless, we shall persist.

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The majority were always going to leave "our side" of this fight, that's why we have to get what we can right now

 

[Randubik]

I snapped a pic of the Cervantes monument yesterday during my jog.

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Mmm... This one looks like an attack on Hispanic culture by white supremacists. The celtic crosses give it away.

Edit: The Cervantes statue has already been cleaned.

 

[Luminish]

What was the symbolism behind spraypainting the statue of Cervantes with red eyes?

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Makes him look metal.

 

[Mekanos]

Never thought I'd have to actually defend my status as an ally.

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Jesus Christ dude. Your "ally status" doesn't fucking matter. Read the room.

 

[Tbm24]

If the underlying objective isn't achieved and the action becomes counter-productive due to high resistance among the population or movement, then the chosen tactic has failed.

Making people uncomfortable is only useful if they will reflect on the issue and move in a constructive direction after the fact. There are times and places where that's unlikely.

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This sounds real close to the "not the right way to protest" bullshit again. All across this land are monuments dedicated to genuine purveyors or enablers of atrocities. That we still have in the calendar Columbus Day makes me want to vomit every year.

Anyone bothered by it can either reflect or stay bothered by it.Thats ultimately their choice and not our problem.

 

[Spock]

In regards to folks like Washington or others with problematic pasts, I think adding to thier monuments or changing them in someway to point out thier negative histories instead of destroying them from the jump might be more effective in expanding the conversation in that direction, though I guess it depends on what the goal is.

Some people don't think the middle of the road folks are relevant. However many of those people have become more supportive of BLM and receptive to the situation as whole.

I get wanting to harness the winds of change in motion right now, but it's worth considering the direction and velocity of things.

My reason for mentioning this is I'm seeing first hand people in some really rural areas people start to make progress and have conversations that where just not happening before. (Mostly older people)

These are people who have friends and family on both sides, yet they themselves are shifting over. They have started to defend BLM and minorities with a facts and research.

But this was because in thier heart they empathized with the living human element of what has been happening.

This made them more inclined to look things up and examine thier own beliefs and feelings.

Confederate statues are easier to relate given symbolic history most are aware of.

When you bring in stuff that isn't as easily and instantly relatable things get more complicated.

 

[Akainu]

I thought it represented a gun sight, not a cross, like:

I've seen it before painted when wanting to mark something as an 'objective'.

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... you serious? They don't even look like crosshairs. Why do you think the lines are going past the circles?

 

[Tbm24]

... you serious? They don't even look like crosshairs. Why do you think the lines are going past the circles?

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Poor artistic skills presumably.

 

[Night]

Jesus Christ dude. Your "ally status" doesn't fucking matter. Read the room.

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It mattered enough to be attacked, but you're right, it hardly does matter at all. Wouldn't have ever made a peep more about it had aspersions not been cast on it. Again, nothing here is going to change that fact, quotes around words or not. Stay safe out there everyone. If anyone around Tampa wants to link up I'm always down, safety in numbers.

The majority were always going to leave "our side" of this fight, that's why we have to get what we can right now

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I'm sorry, but that's rather defeatist. I personally want more than what we've got and what we're getting in the near future. Protests around Tampa are already dying out, though St. Pete is still rallying. Rejuvenation can occur, but in my opinion, not like this.

 

[JCG]

This sounds real close to the "not the right way to protest" bullshit again. All across this land are monuments dedicated to genuine purveyors or enablers of atrocities. That we still have in the calendar Columbus Day makes me want to vomit every year.

Anyone bothered by it can either reflect or stay bothered by it.Thats ultimately their choice and not our problem.

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It's an opinion about tactics, not an ethical judgment, and should be read in the context of this discussion in particular. People are allowed to have various opinions about what tactics are better than others. It's not for anyone here, especially not me, to make the actual decisions on the matter.

Let me ask you this: do you think a majority of black people in the current U.S. would support removing Washington's statues? Again, I wouldn't mind if they did. I've pointed out the man's public image is a myth and deserves to be taken down to the ground. I just don't think that move is going to achieve the desired outcome, as previously discussed.

 

[AnotherNils]

Are we instituting purity tests for statues now? Because at this rate no statue survives.

 

[Elegant Weapon]

It mattered enough to be attacked, but you're right, it hardly does matter at all. Wouldn't have ever made a peep more about it had aspersions not been cast on it. Again, nothing here is going to change that fact, quotes around words or not. Stay safe out there everyone. If anyone around Tampa wants to link up I'm always down, safety in numbers.



I'm sorry, but that's rather defeatist. I personally want more than what we've got and what we're getting in the near future. Protests around Tampa are already dying out, though St. Pete is still rallying. Rejuvenation can occur, but in my opinion, not like this.

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huh?

you've already stated & decided what will and won't make people listen to us, how am I defeatist in acknowledging that same tenuousness?

I didn't "attack" your "allyship" because questioning if that's something you should deem yourself & your framing of it that way and centering yourself in this discussion should speak to itself, Mr "ally"

 

[Wrapped in Black]

This whole thread I've had that old Chappelle bit running in my head, with time-traveling to the past with a white friend and seeing George Washington:



"Oh my god Dave, look, it's George Washington! Father of this great nation. I'm going to go shake his hand."

"Run nigga! It's George Washington!"


Screw George and screw the mythologizing and quasi-deification of these old assholes who knew back then that they were being assholes. The way folks talk about the founding fathers, you'd think we were talking about ancient Mesopotamia. They just didn't know! They just didn't have the framework that the woke present does!

If you want to build monuments to something, build it to the faceless oppressed who were denied human rights. Build one to GW's enslaved cook Hercules who escaped to freedom, or maybe to Herc's children who were kept enslaved and divided up after Martha's death. Give me more Frederick Douglass statues.

Build ones for the lakota tribe that Grant severely screwed over, to say the least, when he began his illegal and phony bloody conflict to make it easier for white miners to plunder their stolen land.

Or if you want to keep up GW and Jefferson statues, then each existing one must be matched with a statue/memorial to dudes like John Brown and Nat Turner.

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Best post in here

 

[Boss]

Are we instituting purity tests for statues now? Because at this rate no statue survives.

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If that's what it takes to get rid of statues of SLAVE OWNERS. PEOPLE WHO ENSLAVED BLACK PEOPLE. Then good, get rid of all statues.