This thread is not about Buddhist monks. Also, feel free to look up the studies about self-immolation and take them apart. My post was pretty benign, not sure why you would be so upset given some of the other posts in this thread.
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Aaron Bushnell, US airman, sets himself on fire in protest of Palestinian genocide outside Israeli embassy.
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This thread is not about Buddhist monks. Also, feel free to look up the studies about self-immolation and take them apart. My post was pretty benign, not sure why you would be so upset given some of the other posts in this thread.
It seemed like you came in here as Mr. Scientist feeling the need to drop obvious logic on an otherwise emotional and way more complicated discussion. I brought up Buddhist monks as an exaggerated example of where you simply pointing out a link between mental health and self-immolation would be considered even more asinine. I have not seen any suggestion that self-immolators are extraordinary and can act in such a way with no link to their mental health. It's an expression that gets to the core of their very being...
Your post finger wags and then tells other people to look for evidence that by implication supports your claim, themselves. Not constructive
Maybe it's because the posts you've made within this thread have amounted to "fyi, there's plenty of studies if you google" or "feel free to look up the studies" instead of actually sharing anything when others have asked for examples.
While you wrote is quite awful, it is the awful truth. I have to agree with you. Even aside of the "mental health" issue, news channels don't report suicide reasons, the act will barely make the news and, of course, nothing will change in Israel actions.
I agree that self immolation is going a bit too far as form of protest but for this situation even basic forms of protest are purposely made insignificant or demonised.
Here in the London we've had pretty much weekly ceasefire protests for months and ive been to a couple. They're always generally peaceful and full of people of different races and backgrounds. Yet in some media and by certain politicians these protests have been called terrorist sympathy marches or headlines like "dozens arrested at protest" while leaving out the other 500k or however many that marched without issue. Before the armistice day march our gov tried to get the march banned and explicitly stirred up the extreme right racists to counter protest at the same time. Guess which set of protesters were arrested more often with video footage of them breaking barriers and fighting police in mass brawls? The irony was off the charts. Meanwhile the ceasefire march mostly got media coverage because it was held on a "controversial" day, not because of the message behind the march.
If a basic act of getting together and calling for a fucking ceasefire of all things is considered controversial then so called acceptable or good forms of protests are almost non existent. Like I said I don't agree with self immolation but since the usual stuff isn't working some like Aaron are restoring to more extreme measures.
I was talking more about the prevalence of self immolation as a form of protest in the public mindspace
I think Aaron said what he wanted to say loud and clear, and he was far louder than the millions of people who have been protesting this already.
I mean I think cynically the general public will completely forget about him in a week or two: this isn't the first time this has been done on this issue and nobody really remembers the last person who did it either
Because it's incredibly easy to find many studies/articles on the subject and I am exhausted, having trouble sleeping after working overnight at the hospital. My post was still very benign. Given the preceding discussion on mental health and self-immolation I pointed out that there are, in fact, studies on the subject, and they do find a link.
For sure, at the same time, it is impossible to predict the impact of such symbolic gestures. I can't really recall any somewhat recent immolations splashing the algorithms like this will. Will more (young?) people know about Aaron Bushnell than Thích Quảng Đức, even though his act is one of the most iconic photos ever?
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It's not prevalent though, they're extremely rare, you only hear about it once or twice for certain political situations because it's so extreme. The last time I heard about self immolation as a protest was a young (maybe a teen?) Tibetan monk set himself on fire years ago pre covid. This will get some shock value from the public, if it's even reported much, but unless it leads to some sway in public opinion it will be forgotten about within a couple weeks.
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If someone on this forum posted that they were going to do this, would your first reaction be to support them in their action or tell them to not commit suicide?
I don't think the public's collective memory has any bearing on the fact that we are currently talking about Aaron Bushnell and not the millions of other people around the world who have simply marched or donated. This is not to say that marching and donating are useless. It is to simply say that he singlehandedly has gotten more attention for protesting the Palestinian genocide than most others who have tried.
My first reaction would be to act in accordance with administrative procedure regarding open expressions of suicidal ideation. But I'm not sure what the question has to do with my post.
I also want to, once again, remind people that Aaron Bushnell deliberately sacrificed himself as a form of protest against the Palestinian genocide that Western countries, namely the US, have been allowing to happen.
If the general public will forget Aaron Bushnell, then may we who are paying attention make the choice to remember him, his action, and his words.
How so?
If someone here said they were going to do the same thing Aaron said he was going to do for the same exact reasons - why is it a different comparison?
He's really not.
Will the PM of Israel stop killing people in Gaza now that there's one less protester on the planet? Will the Biden Administration suddenly stop funding Israel in this man's honor?
Suicide in the name of political protest is probably the least effective method of enacting change there is, because strength comes in numbers, and if you take yourself out of the movement that's one less voice to speak. And that's before we get to the important part of it all that you, for some reason, left out of the quote: he left his family behind to go through with this.
Aaron is already dead. There is nothing we can do about it now.
There is not a single sane person in here that would tell someone that is still alive and suicidal to go for it and you know that. No matter the cause
National news coverage, and it isn't effective?
Also, I just hate the idea of tone policing protest like this in general. This whole situation is tragic—for him, his family and the people of Gaza.
The gesture of ending his life this way is a mistake in my mind. Western culture and society still scorns anything related to or can be perceived as mental health issues.
Plus the victim here is also his family. Will they take this the same way posters here are saying with "RIP"? I think we should reflect on that.
Plus the victim here is also his family. Will they take this the same way posters here are saying with "RIP"? I think we should reflect on that.
So maybe we shouldn't be doing things like saying that his death was an effective form of protest then?
I think this is how I'm going to look at this.
RIP to the guy that did this, he at least went out stating what he thought he believed and died with conviction for those beliefs.
It actually poses a good philosophical question- what would you do?
It might not change Israel's actions, but it might encourage our government to stop supporting them, especially when doing so requires bypassing congress multiple times.
Aaron did it with conviction and I am not gonna dull his message by ignoring it and focus on the mental health aspect. This happened for a reason and the man was clear about why he did this.
The genocide the US is commiting in Palestine alongside the Israeli terrorists in charge. This could have been prevented but genocide Joe could care less. He is happily supplying Israel with weapons and bombs and can never spare a second to reflect about his actions. This POS is unmoved by all the carnage he is aiding. And Aaron understands this and the only way he could make his voice heard is by going out the way he did.
I wish he didn't do it because to die like this even if for a noble cause is too sad for a person with such conviction and sense of duty like him. He deserved to live a long life.
Rest in peace Aaron. May you rest in power and peace. You deserve better than this shitty life and society provided. You will be remembered.
The genocide the US is commiting in Palestine alongside the Israeli terrorists in charge. This could have been prevented but genocide Joe could care less. He is happily supplying Israel with weapons and bombs and can never spare a second to reflect about his actions. This POS is unmoved by all the carnage he is aiding. And Aaron understands this and the only way he could make his voice heard is by going out the way he did.
I wish he didn't do it because to die like this even if for a noble cause is too sad for a person with such conviction and sense of duty like him. He deserved to live a long life.
Rest in peace Aaron. May you rest in power and peace. You deserve better than this shitty life and society provided. You will be remembered.
If his family loved him, then I would guess they would want him to rest in peace, yes, even amongst their grief.
One could say "RIP" here and not support the decision. I don't see the correlation between lamenting the loss of life and necessarily agreeing with what he did.
talk is cheap. The only difference between him and the people donating and protesting is that people are talking about his name, but this isn't about him in the first place and if anything I'd say putting him into the conversation has only destracted from discussion of the cause itself
Just read some really cruel comments on his last facebook post. Didn't expect to find the same here.
It's more of a generalization. The family will quite literally be trying to understand this versus a general "RIP".
Much of the discussion online I've seen about Aaron is directly related to the Palestinian genocide; people are directly noting the cause as to why he did this and making personal statements and art in response.
It's really only here that I've personally seen his protest completely hijacked and derailed to discuss mental health instead.
I'm curious, where do you stand on the issue Aaron was protesting with his final actions? How much have you posted about this issue on this board before today?
Again you're lionizing suicide by putting it on a level above actual protesting. You should not do this.
No air at all should be given to anything that resembles endorsement or approval of suicide.
First reaction, no. After learning that he left behind a family to do this, yes.
I can't help but feel like a lot of people failed this guy. The government obviously, but also those around him. He was clearly not well.
RIP.
RIP.
RIP Aaron, what a tragedy. Sounds like he was a really noble and caring man, and it must have been awful being part of an apparatus that was enabling genocide.
I hope his family can find peace and that his act can make an profound impact beyond his death. Tragic.
I hope his family can find peace and that his act can make an profound impact beyond his death. Tragic.
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I am not putting it above other protests. It is, in itself, another form of protest. I literally would not encourage people to go out and do this, and understand myself I do not have the conviction to self-harm over my beliefs. However, I will also not condemn Aaron either, nor will I allow you or anyone else to distract from the reason he did this for too long, which is that there is currently genocide in Gaza going on of which our government is complicit in allowing to happen.
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