8 Labour MP's quit party in protest of Leadership, Brexit and anti-semitism (update: 3 Conservative MPs quit to join Independent Group)
- Thread starter Thornton Reed
- Start date
Yep, not when a No Deal scenario makes Irish Unification almost inevitable.
Lol. The stench of death around the Lib Dems is too strong even for this bunch
On the issue of electability we have the proof of Labours performance in the 2017 general election to show how Labour under Corbyn is very very much electable and in fact Labour are at their must electable in years. This is despite the insane levels of hostility across the political spectrum and being actively undermined by segments of his own party.
Day-to-day polling is pretty much irrelevant. The Tories have a rock solid bedrock of 30% support in elections that remained steady even in their New Labour wilderness years. With politics so polarised and a huge chunk of brexit support coalescing around the Tories (and it being very dangerous for Labour to risk losing the left-leaning brexit supporters it continues to hold onto) it is essentially impossible for Labour to be smashing those numbers in the polls. They would have to be in the high 40s or 50s+. That's not happening under any leader or any brexit policy programme. And especially not whilst being attacked day after day after day, sometimes in something valid, mostly on some bullshit.
I never denied antisemitism existed in the Labour party. It sadly does just as it does in other political parties and across society. Like all other forms of racism and prejudice do as well. However there is no evidence to show it's worse in the Labour Party - not an excuse for Labour to ignore the problem and not do more (they've been doing more than pretty much any other party and have the most robust procedures in dealing with matters now), but a reminder that we all need to do more and be vigilant across the political spectrum and across society. Which isn't happening now as only Labour seems to be under any scrutiny. I was pointing out how several of the splitters are hypocrites who only seemed to care about racism once Jeremy Corbyn became leader. Like a lot of the Labour right they are constantly arguing in bad faith.
Seeing Tories cackling only to have it blow up in their faces would be glorious.
So why did they take so long to adopt the IHRA Definition?
Wasn't there that statistic that one of the few parties in Europe that also didn't adopt it was Viktor Orban's party?
So it's not just a normalised "Day to Day Antisemitism" that "exists in every party" - most parties in Europe adopted the definition without an issue.
Re :the IHRA definition - the Israeli state is racist. There, according to that I am an antisemite. See why people could have a legitimate problem with it?
It must be getting close to an unavoidable election, unless May shifts and compromises.
If anyone has followed some of the insanity that's been going on in various US state legislatures over the past two years w/ various crises and crazy wrangling, the UK situation is starting to feel familiar. Crisis leads to parties cleaving and stuff like half the GOP reps voting for tax increases, or a Dem speaker.
Because the IHRA also basically posits that criticizing Israel over them committing genocide is anti-semitic
now trying to resist this notion is painted as anti-semitic too for the same tactic of "peer pressure"
Because the IHRA definition includes examples of anti-Semitism seperate from the core definition (which had long been a part of Labours code of conduct) that were extremely controversial for how they can potentially effect legitimate criticism of the actions of the Israeli government. One of the authors of the definition himself criticised the wording of serveral of the examples.
A 2016 select committee recommending parties including the IHRA definition, but with caveats on some of the additional examples and issues with them (incidentally Chuka Umunna was a member and agreed with its findings. Until last year's crisis and suddenly he didn't). And at the time the furore kicked off last year the Tories code of conduct didn't even mention the word 'anti-Semitism' let alone include the IHRA definition. That was quickly pasted in later, after Theresa May had lied about it at PMQs to attack Corbyn over it.
The Green party also decided not to adopt the definition. It is simply not true to say the IHRA definition is itself not problematic in certain ways and it is not antisemetic to object to some of the additional examples that come with it.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/an...working-definition-of-antisemitism-altogether
I think I might give up making predictions, you're right this could all go in any direction. What a joke with what is at stake.
Should be interesting to watch the level of press coverage given to these Tory defections vs the defections from Labour.
The IHRA definition explicitly defines criticism of Israel as anti-Semitism, which is in itself an anti-Semitic trope. The IHRA definition is hopelessly flawed and should not be adopted by anyone whole cloth.
The IHRA definition explicitly defines criticism of Israel as anti-Semitism, which is in itself an anti-Semitic trope. The IHRA definition is hopelessly flawed and should not be adopted by anyone whole cloth.
No it doesn't, you can criticise Israel and their actions as a country but you can't draw parallels towards race.
This is why people say they is an issue with anti-semitism in the party, and rightly so.
Please feel free to quote which lines in here prevent you from criticising Israel:
https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism
Agree with you on intellectual property abuse (a systemic issue, not just GMO but is a super combustible combo) and nuclear/GMO evangelism sometimes chilling nuanced discussion. I think it would be more helpful if the Green Parties of the world focused on how to use tech for the good instead of apriori rejecting them because the current implementations are flawed, inadequate or commandeered by The Wrong People. The problem is some of their supporters are romantics that fall for the naturalistic fallacy trap and view green politics as a personal purity test. I know because I used to be that way myself. Tech should be about environmental sustainability and liberation of human and non-human animals. Even if there's good reasons to be a little squeamish of GMO/nuclear, it's worth coming to the table at least, otherwise The Wrong People will dominate. E.g., "we could use nuclear to fuel our empire" instead of "we could use nuclear to help us rewild the planet."
Here you go:
"Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor. "
The following point is also so deliberately vague as to cover a multitude of sins, such as when it was used to justiofy the sniping of unarmend teenagers at the Israeli border:
"Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation."
They're going to vote down anything on the table in the aim of cancelling Brexit so we'll just end up going off the cliff.
the sniping of unarmend teenagers at the Israeli border.
You can criticise that without infracting the above two you quoted.
There's plenty of discussion about IRHA definitions, not just within the Labour Party
Right well you're infracting one of the examples right now by suggesting that the views of the Israeli Government are consistent with the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (founded by a Swedish Prime Minister and HQ based in Berlin).
The dragging out is the same method they used for the chicken coup, in order to maximise the amount of media coverage they get from their friends.
It's absolutely transparent.
Sorry, are you accusing me of the thing the IHRA definition itself does? And yes, the two points I cited are regularly used by the Israeli government to shut down criticism of it's actions as anti-semitic
The green party of Scotland is actually very good, they are, however, a completely different party than the Greens of England and Wales.
Tory defections would be interesting, since it would give TIG some serious cred with conservative, centre-leaning and undecided voters and put May in a bad position. That being said, if the infighting and lack of direction is as bad as was reported, it's only a matter of time before the group implode. They have to seriously get their shit together if they want to last. Though at least Chuka has managed to cockblock Tony Blair's return, so they've achieved something ha.
Interested to see how this affects the Lib Dems. I remember Vince Cable was trying to get in on the ground floor of a new centrist party some time ago, but I assume he was one of the people that fell out with the others since they don't seem too keen on embracing the Lib Dems at the moment. Might be wise for them to just stay the course and keep their heads down for now. Should TIG end up imploding they won't want to be tied to them. If TIG succeed, then they are in for some very tough times I would think.
I guess that sorta would be the only circumstance they could take their seats without losing much face.
Interested to see how this affects the Lib Dems. I remember Vince Cable was trying to get in on the ground floor of a new centrist party some time ago, but I assume he was one of the people that fell out with the others since they don't seem too keen on embracing the Lib Dems at the moment. Might be wise for them to just stay the course and keep their heads down for now. Should TIG end up imploding they won't want to be tied to them. If TIG succeed, then they are in for some very tough times I would think.
I guess that sorta would be the only circumstance they could take their seats without losing much face.
Last edited:
Just as it seems it cannot get any worse, Labour is in real dire trouble now.
At this point, I really have no idea who the hell am I going to vote for at the next GE...
But then I remember that we might all fall from a cliff in 1 month, so yeah. Good times.
And what exactly do the thoughts of the Israeli government have to do with the IHRA definition of antisemitism?
Besides all of this fuckery going on big John reminding everyone of the future of the UK union being at risk.
I'm Scottish and for Indy, there is no risk. We have too many unionists and most Centrists and right wingers wouldn't go for it.
We'll moan about the problem but do fuck all to stop it happening again. Tis the Scottish way.
It's amazing how the so-called "Conservative and Unionist" Party doesn't actually give a fuck about this.
Three MPs from Conservative Party join Independent Group