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Oct 25, 2017
2,431
As the main #gigaleak thread is intended for discussion of the content of the leaks, and not any legal or ethical questions that may come about from the leak I thought it would help to post a thread where posters can discuss the legal and/or ethical questions that may come about.

Here's a thoughtful thread from aficionado of interesting headwear placed on former presidential candidates; Cheesemeister.

I would largely agree with the sentiments in that thread. For me it feels like an invasion of privacy, possibly even disrespectful towards those who have worked on these products and that it may lead to more stringent measures to prevent further leaks in the future.

Another perspective that has turned up in the main thread is from Dylan Cuthbert, who was lead developer on several Star Fox titles and has continued to work on a wide range of games for different platform holders. A single response from Dylan is linked below, but he's been pretty responsive over the past day or so on twitter so feel free to read what he has posted.



I can understand that for many this is an exciting, interesting time where they've been able to discover hitherto unseen or unknown versions and iterations of their favourite games. I haven't felt the same feeling. I'm really interested to know what you think though.
 

WackoWambo

Member
Jan 11, 2018
1,300
User Banned (2 Weeks): Conspiratorial Rhetoric
I believe these leaks are coming from iQue development where Nintendo licensed out its games to a Chinese company for the Chinese market.

If this was hacking into Nintendo to get these assets I would feel worse. But if Nintendo chose to work with this company and didn't do the due diligence, that is on Nintendo.
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,743
I believe these leaks are coming from iQue development where Nintendo licensed out its games to a Chinese company for the Chinese market.

If this was hacking into Nintendo to get these assets I would feel worse. But if Nintendo chose to work with this company and didn't do the due diligence, that is on Nintendo.

This is really dumb
 

higemaru

Member
Nov 30, 2017
4,110
It's cool and historical and Nintendo and other companies shouldn't be so precious about this stuff.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,977
Yeah I would feel a lot better about leaks like this if content like personal discussions between developers had been scrubbed before release. Early assets are neat but ideally that's the only stuff that I think should be publicly accessible. Leaks like this provide companies with additional reasons to delete or cull data and I have to seriously question whether their effects are beneficial or harmful to the preservation of the industry's history overall.
 

NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,791
It's really exciting from a historical perspective to see all this content but speaking as a creator, the feeling of having old material under lock-and-key laid out there without your consent, which could've been scrapped for all kinds of reasons people don't need to relate to, feels kind of shitty. The material is out there so there's not really much you can do but to disseminate it, but I can't say I really "hope" for this to become more common.

It's somewhat safe to assume that a lot of cutting room floor material that developers are more comfortable to talk about will become public knowledge and Nintendo themselves have become a lot more open about their development processes; seeing all the beta material for Breath of the Wild does not feel like something Nintendo would've done back in the old days, same goes for the beta material/footage we've seen of Splatoon and ARMS.

And yeah the fact that a lot of personal/messaging stuff also came out just really sucks.
 
OP
OP
Oct 25, 2017
2,431
If this was hacking into Nintendo to get these assets I would feel worse. But if Nintendo chose to work with this company and didn't do the due diligence, that is on Nintendo.

The parent company of iQue is Nintendo. It was originally a joint venture between Nintendo and the founder of ArtX. Nintendo later bought the company out altogether in 2013.

iQue is Nintendo. It's like saying Nintendo of Europe or Nintendo of America isn't part of Nintendo.

Likewise BroadOn (who this hack is believed to have started with) was a supplier to Nintendo. Much in the same way like lots of other companies act as suppliers to platform holders and may have access to sensitive information held by the companies they work with.
 

Arimanaguchi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
69
San Antonio, Texas
Im in the camp of 'who the hell cares'

Yeah, sucks it got leaked, but cool that it did

These corporations wont notice you don't care about you, no matter how much some of the internet wants to humanize and apologize for them
 

laxu

Member
Nov 26, 2017
2,782
As a programmer I am not in love with my code to have any personal attachment to it. Everything I do gets peer reviewed before being merged and some of it is not the ideal solution because of various reasons (time limits, other code, structuring of the code etc). I would expect the same to apply to game development. Every programmer will at some point look at their old work and wonder "why did I do it like that?" as they have gained more experience.

Of course I would not be happy if the source code for the stuff I develop got leaked. Not because of the quality of the code but because it's a serious security problem. On an old single player game...maybe not that much. I think it's interesting to find out how different things work whether it's through code released or someone reverse engineering or looking into the files.
 
Oct 25, 2017
19,147
In regards to the specific leak, the historical significance is worth noting. It's material from decades old content, so it doesn't feel like it's damaging to the Nintendo of today. I could understand if it were leaks/hacks in the vein of TLoU2 for a game before release, but for now I look at it as the discovery of any ancient documents or artifacts, since it's already out there.

The real negative outcome of this is if it inspires hackers to continually attempt to penetrate these big companies in order to excavate more "history", but in the process leak present-day projects and assets.
 

Kcannon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,665
I believe these leaks are coming from iQue development where Nintendo licensed out its games to a Chinese company for the Chinese market.

If this was hacking into Nintendo to get these assets I would feel worse. But if Nintendo chose to work with this company and didn't do the due diligence, that is on Nintendo.

Wait, isn't i Que part of Nintendo?
 
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Cuboid 64

Member
Oct 28, 2017
354
It's extremely interesting and cool to see but I think the buck ought to stop at private communications and anything to do with modern systems.

I would have been satisfied with just Mario 64 Luigi.
 

higemaru

Member
Nov 30, 2017
4,110
I don't see how it is okay to illegally access private information from private companies and their workers
Not seeing why I should care about emails from 1994 for any reason other than historical curiosity. If you've ever read a letter from a WWII GI, you're doing the same thing.
 

Deleted member 18021

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,000
This is all cool and interesting stuff to see, but yeah, keep in mind that it's all stolen material. The personal stuff like the emails should have been removed before it was released, at the very least.

Seeing old prototypes and concepts for stuff like Super Mario World is one thing (one I'm sure Nintendo still would prefer weren't out there, considering they still mine these things for ideas), but those Wii documents especially pretty boldly cross the line.
 

higemaru

Member
Nov 30, 2017
4,110
I can't grasp the logic of wanting to FOIA a video game company since they are pretty clearly not a public good and even then, you clearly want stuff beyond the scope of a FOIA.
You're right, I actually want the names, addresses, phone numbers, emergency contacts, and bank account numbers of all employees who worked there circa 1992.
 

higemaru

Member
Nov 30, 2017
4,110
It's amazing how they talk about their human right to see a sprite from an alpha version of Pokemon as if they were taking down capitalism.
I don't think i said anything about taking down capitalism lol, I just like information to be publicly accessible. Don't see why we shouldn't have access to an alpha version of Pokemon Sapphire, and if someone can just hack in and get it, why not release it officially?
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,592
It's really exciting from a historical perspective to see all this content but speaking as a creator, the feeling of having old material under lock-and-key laid out there without your consent, which could've been scrapped for all kinds of reasons people don't need to relate to, feels kind of shitty. The material is out there so there's not really much you can do but to disseminate it, but I can't say I really "hope" for this to become more common.

This is all work for hire though, so as its creator, you have to have come to terms with the fact that you have no ownership over it, and it's entirely up to Nintendo (in this case) what they want to do with it (and whether they want to pursue legal action when it gets leaked like this).

I think there's been a big shift in perceptions over the years. The software development world has become a lot more collaborative and open-source, so I think people currently working in the industry are a lot more casual about this sort of thing. That quote from Dylan Cuthbert about source code being private and personal doesn't really apply any more: only the most dysfunctional and old-fashioned companies don't have at least some sort of code review process in place, so everyone learns very quickly to disassociate themselves from their work and not to get too precious about it!
 
Jan 2, 2018
10,699
I don't think i said anything about taking down capitalism lol, I just like information to be publicly accessible. Don't see why we shouldn't have access to an alpha version of Pokemon Sapphire, and if someone can just hack in and get it, why not release it officially?

They just don't want it out in the public, what's the problem? They own it, they can do what they want with it.
 
Feb 24, 2018
5,259
This is all cool and interesting stuff to see, but yeah, keep in mind that it's all stolen material. The personal stuff like the emails should have been removed before it was released, at the very least.

Seeing old prototypes and concepts for stuff like Super Mario World is one thing (one I'm sure Nintendo still would prefer weren't out there, considering they still mine these things for ideas), but those Wii documents especially pretty boldly cross the line.
This is my view as well, the personal stuff should have been removed and just been the old prototypes which let's be honest, is neat and interesting to see. Not saying those who did it should face consequences, but for a fan, seeing old Gen 4 sprites is curious.
 

Glio

Member
Oct 27, 2017
24,567
Spain
I don't think i said anything about taking down capitalism lol, I just like information to be publicly accessible. Don't see why we shouldn't have access to an alpha version of Pokemon Sapphire, and if someone can just hack in and get it, why not release it officially?
Because that alpha version is not yours. They can do whatever they want with it. It is their intellectual property and artistic work.
 

KtSlime

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,910
Tokyo
you could feasibly foia multiple companies lmao. there isn't a hard limit

I don't think that's the case

The FOIA does not apply to private companies; persons who receive Federal contracts or grants \18\; private organizations; or State or local governments.

But I'm saying if you could, why waste the chance on Nintendo.

It's amazing how they talk about their human right to see a sprite from an alpha version of Pokemon as if they were taking down capitalism.

Yeah, I mean, I think it would be nice if we were to correct problems with always increasing terms on copyrights and pattens, as those things should be given back to the public. Private documents, if donated by companies or families of the deceased, or long long dead people I think it is good to have for public viewing also. But where the line is drawn as to when it is okay to take some ones works/thoughts that they had no intention of sharing with the world (this is not a product, which gets finalized and put out into the world and protected by copyright in exchange for eventually being given to the public) is still very much up for debate, and ~30 years is way too soon.
 

higemaru

Member
Nov 30, 2017
4,110
Because that alpha version is not yours. They can do whatever they want with it. It is their intellectual property and artistic work.
is it an intellectual property or is it an artistic work? if it's an intellectual property, then sure, it belongs to the company as much as missile schematics belong to Raytheon. if it's an artistic work, then it belongs to the community and should be accessible to the community. You can't play both cards for whatever your argument is.
 

Kaloskatoa

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
352
Not seeing why I should care about emails from 1994 for any reason other than historical curiosity. If you've ever read a letter from a WWII GI, you're doing the same thing.

While I agree that there is some historical merits and values to this, 30 years is too soon, many of these people are still working in the industry.
 

KtSlime

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,910
Tokyo
is it an intellectual property or is it an artistic work? if it's an intellectual property, then sure, it belongs to the company as much as missile schematics belong to Raytheon. if it's an artistic work, then it belongs to the community and should be accessible to the community. You can't play both cards for whatever your argument is.

If it is an artistic work that is protected via copyright, then there is a rule that eventually it will need to be given to the people as an exchange for the years of protection. If it is a private work of art, protected by you, no copyright, the public has no right to it no matter how long it has been as there was no exchanged for protection by the government.
 

Glio

Member
Oct 27, 2017
24,567
Spain
is it an intellectual property or is it an artistic work? if it's an intellectual property, then sure, it belongs to the company as much as missile schematics belong to Raytheon. if it's an artistic work, then it belongs to the community and should be accessible to the community. You can't play both cards for whatever your argument is.
How the fuck is the community that owns an artwork? It is the property of the artist or whoever hires them.
 
OP
OP
Oct 25, 2017
2,431
We're entitled to all information.
screen-shot-2020-04-27-at-10.37.10-am.png
 

Valcrist

Tic-Tac-Toe Champion
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,715
Won't someone please think of the corporations? I mean, it's not like they have human slaves make their hardware for pennies or anything. We should be more thoughtful towards giants like Nintendo. :(