OP
OP
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
Hillary Clinton: Europe must curb immigration to stop rightwing populists
- Thread starter Deleted member 13364
- Start date
Its not like they framed it differently to avoid the mess either. Its literally the same, or perhaps even worse.
True, for now. I'm honestly just saying be careful with how you're playing with fire.
Clinton lost to fucking Trump. She's not a particularly good politician.
OP
OP
You will get no apology from me if you feel it is gross - it's entirely accurate. Shifting positions toward the racism of the far right in a hope of curtailing their rise is not only a hopeless tactic, but a disgusting one.
Yeah no thanks, not gonna turn a blind eye to the result of decades of colonialist policies because we can't handle the consequences. Integrate or fix the source of the problem.
I know this is a novel concept, but it is indeed possible to express disagreement and disgust at Clinton's position in a mature way.
I have no idea what points were brought up in the last few threads on this topic, but here is my take.
We are not permanently liberal or permanently conservative. Our various life experiences swing us back and fourth toward certain ideologies. Posters on this board wont want to admit it, but all of us here are susceptible to becoming conservative. Her concern seems to be the risk of more people leaning conservative.
I am no history major, but I am going to make a fair inference that migration has historically been linked with negative social responses. When people, who thought of themselves to be liberals, start to have their lives negatively effected in ways that can be blamed on migration, than they may vote for a conservative leader at next election cycle.
It is not a concession to the current conservatives. Rather, she does not want migration to turn more people conservative.
We are not permanently liberal or permanently conservative. Our various life experiences swing us back and fourth toward certain ideologies. Posters on this board wont want to admit it, but all of us here are susceptible to becoming conservative. Her concern seems to be the risk of more people leaning conservative.
I am no history major, but I am going to make a fair inference that migration has historically been linked with negative social responses. When people, who thought of themselves to be liberals, start to have their lives negatively effected in ways that can be blamed on migration, than they may vote for a conservative leader at next election cycle.
It is not a concession to the current conservatives. Rather, she does not want migration to turn more people conservative.
- The media claims that immigration is negatively impacting Western societies / economies. It isn't for christ's sake. Clinton ain't helping
- Refugees are fleeing from crises and should be accommodated on a humanitarian basis.
- These crises were caused by Western countries -- their intervention and exploitation -- so refugees are immigrating to Western societies because of Western societies.
The problem I have with this sentiment is that it subtly takes the blame off of white America, who put him in power. It downplays Trump and his nationalism, framing it as an aberration, which is ironically a mistake that the dozens of other politicians who lost to him in 2016 did as well.
Sorry, but no. "It's Donald Trump, lol!" is a sentiment that should have died in 2016 along with Clinton's political career. Let's stop pretending he is not now and was not then a dangerously formidable threat, regardless of his intelligence. Trump is a con man, and at that he excels more than any one who has challenged him to date.
Yeah and if you think about it, if we made abortion illegal, cut taxes on the rich, and defunded social welfare programs, we could maybe persuade some people who would have voted for a conservatives to vote for liberals in the next election.
Well another issue is that she didn't really lose to Trump. She got more votes than him... most people voted against his racism anyway.
Even when those politicians other policies will fuck you over just as bad? Intelligent people don't vote based on just one or two policies.
People seem pretty desperate to get this thread locked again. What's up with that?
I would've thought most progressive people here would be completely against appeasement of the right, the nationalists and the racists. What is the controversy that has so many people riled up?
I would've thought most progressive people here would be completely against appeasement of the right, the nationalists and the racists. What is the controversy that has so many people riled up?
OP
OP
"Become conservatives to stop people voting for worse conservatives"
I mean Trump won by the slimest of margin's in a few key states and lost the public vote. Let's also not pretend that election wasn't entirely winnable by Clinton. There was indeed a fuck up even taking into account how many racist white americans there are.
That's part of the reason why him being so batshit reactionary is insane. Most of America did not want him as president. Our system is a joke. And this is the same reason why takes about "how Donald Trump won" are kind of silly - he doesn't have a mandate over anything.
Wel
Well, there are problems in the border countries, and with spreading refugees around Europe. Right wing parties are benefitting in those countries.
Well, there are problems in the border countries, and with spreading refugees around Europe. Right wing parties are benefitting in those countries.
OP
OP
Is that not a summary of your post? This kind of rhetoric absolutely is a concession to the far right. It entirely avoids in engaging with the core issues at hand, and simply gives them exactly what they want.
Migration policy is a complex topic that cannot be discussed with Twitter hot-take responses. I am starting to see why the other threads on this were locked.
Hillary was one of the first people to suggest building a wall around the boarders. I don't know who came up with the idea, but she supported this stuff long before it became a catch phrase for Trump.
OP
OP
Of course it's complex - that's the exact reason why her saying "Europe has done its part, and must send a very clear message – 'we are not going to be able to continue provide refuge and support'" is so contemptible.
They weren't exactly political opponents at that point
Politico said:
I agree. I don't see these observations as mutually exclusive though. That election was winnable, even for someone with Hillary's baggage.
Each one of your statements isn't universally true though. The left seems to be suffering because it can't have a nuanced discussion about immigration.
As someone who emphatically supported you in the 2016 general election, please don't run Hillary.
Edit: If you're feeling charitable, you could think that she's playing the foil for others to disagree with for people on the left who don't like Hillary. Probably not, but it will turn out that way anyway.
Edit: If you're feeling charitable, you could think that she's playing the foil for others to disagree with for people on the left who don't like Hillary. Probably not, but it will turn out that way anyway.
Any Democrat who wasn't Hillary Clinton and didn't have her specific baggage would have won, even with the exact same platform and campaign. Sorry.
Oh of course. People tend to conveniently forget this part too. Hillary is every bit a cult personality as Trump. It's no surprise to see her shift gears now. The funny thing is that perhaps a few years from now, some European politician will borrow Hillary's idea and get elected pushing whatever country it is further right.
Solely in the sense that legalizing the presence of immigrants who are already contributing to your country to help them integrate better
I knew Hillary had some bad opinions in the past, but 2014....
Can we have one Clinton thread that doesn't turn into relitigating 2016? The truth is we can't know how things would have turned out because the Republican smear machine never churned against anyone full time but Clinton so we don't know how effective they'd have been. Living your political life stuck in election night 2016 doesn't serve any purpose anymore.
But please don't run Hillary.
But please don't run Hillary.
Then the US needs to stop setting the Middle East on Fire for war profiteering and oil which is one of the main causes of immigration.
Immigration is a nice sanitary word for having a hand in creating a huge refugee crisis.
I think this is a disingenuous comparison. Trump's wall idea is stupid for a whole host of reasons: it would be ridiculously expensive, ineffective, and serve mostly as a symbol of his xenophobia.
The idea of building physical barriers in and of itself isn't the problem there. We have done that for some time now.
...this also isn't a Hillary original. As an example, Angela Merkel sort of adapted the approach:
OP
OP
The most bizarre thing is that this is part of The Guardian's terrible series on "populism", which essentially is a series on the far right they've badged that way to "both sides" the issues and allow centrist heroes like Blair and Clinton to give amazing takes like solving right wing populism by...adopting right wing populist policies.