"Fortnite Dances" is Cultural Erasure. Straight Up.

Kyzer · Nov 9, 2018

"white people" have nothing to do with this, seems highly offbase, and the dances do not belong to OP anymore than the "annoying white people" (I guess only white kids play Fortnite and do these dances?) who are appropriating them. Some of the dances are even from random memes. What in the world are you even talking about being "your dance"? Is the little kid dancing in his room that got put into a Fortnite dance yours too?

Epic should absolutely credit the originators of the dance, and it won't be OP lol.

Grouch Douglass · Nov 9, 2018

"Cultural erasure is a practice in which a dominant culture, for example a colonizing nation, attempts to negate, suppress, remove and, in effect, erase the culture of a subordinate culture. The idea of "civilizing" nonwhite people can be seen as cultural erasure."

How is putting these dances in a game cultural erasure? Did OP mean cultural appropriation?

Kyzer · Nov 9, 2018

DigitalOp said:
Mod Edit: There is a productive discussion to be had here, but if this thread is to continue, we will need to take it seriously, not antagonize each other, or be dismissive about the topic. Post in good faith and be civil.

They don't want to pay them.

They don't want to give them proper credit.

So the result is things that are associated with our culture gets loaned out wholesale and entirely re-appropriated to mass audiences with no reverance for the source.

I can't even watch NBA without literally every single kid doing these on camera. These kids go perform for their parents and they laugh and clap while they praise Fortnite for its creativity, totally unaware how this all stems from Black Culture at the source.

Its a continuation of the same cultural erasure that has happened throughout history, esp in regards to Hip-Hop.

Are white kids not allowed to do black dances?.... No, nobody is saying that. We're saying give us our damn credit. Stop whitewashing our creations and show people the source.

Fortnite makes money off of this stuff. JB Blocboy even says he don't even care about the money, he just wants the credit. Its one or the other, but this is just ridiculous.

I should be able to 'shoot' in public without someone saying "HAHA, Its that dance from Fortnite!" Thats really fucking annoying to hear from white people.

And before you say "FoRtNiTe MaDe tHeM PoPuLaR"....... No, these dances made it to Fortnite BECAUSE they were already popular. You got it backwards.

What would make this even worse is Are there even black devs working on Fortnite? I could understand a little if they added some of this stuff in, but if EPIC is primarily a white development company, that makes all this shit even more devious and suspect

Just like the YT comment says : Cause everything we do is Ghetto until they find it profitable, and then it's Creative

have you ever played Fortnite or only seen the "shoot" dance?

Zukuu · Nov 9, 2018

Mass_Pincup said:
They don't credit the origin of the dance and took an extra step by renaming it. Why would they do that otherwise?

They can't. Names do cause legal trouble.

Acu · Nov 9, 2018

nib95 said:
Fortnite didn't act like it invented it, Fortnite isn't even a sentient being, it's a product. Fortnite also isn't erasing culture, its adding to it. It's popularising elements of culture and bringing with it its own.

Ultimately Fortnite is itself a generational cultural phenomenon, and the vast majority of its players know the dances and emotes within it are derived from other sources, memes, videos etc. Hell the videos that compare Fortnite dances/animations with the original sources in and of themselves have tens of millions of views. Fortnite has very likely led to more streams, views etc of the original sources, songs and so on.

Case in point.

That is great, honestly.

Something that remembers me when I did find out that World of Warcraft dances were based upon many existing and different sources. I probably wouldn't have ever danced to Tunak Tunak if not because of the male Draenei dance.

But the thing is,as I am understanding, people ask directly to Epic Games to endorse and give proper credit to the makers and owners of those dancing moves.

DevilMayGuy · Nov 9, 2018

Epic should pay all dance creators who clearly can stake a claim on their dance moves in the game. I'm a big fan of people being compensated for their work product.

Unfortunately, laws in the US (and elsewhere) do not extend much to any legal standing to dance creators. It would be good of Epic to credit and compensate dance creators, but big companies aren't really known for doing things out of the goodness of their hearts.

nib95 · Nov 9, 2018

ProZach said:
Epic should credit whoever they nicked it off. Pathetic that they don't, and I can't think of a single argument against doing so.

I don't agree. We shouldn't be monetising (in terms of royalties) what are essentially memes, viral dance moves and elements of popular culture, even if said things are being used by content creators to add (monetary) value to their products. Not everything has to have some sort of corporate stamp, ownership and accountability to it. Some things should just be able to be enjoyed without having x, y or z paid off, and in any case, you could argue it is Fortnite that is assisting in making these dance moves part of popular culture, as much as the other way around.

For all we know Fortnite may have already indirectly increased revenue for the original sources of these things, by way of users seeking out the original meme or song videos etc as a result of seeing them in Fortnite, thus increasing the original creators ad revenue and awareness or coverage.

Also, I'm not sure the OP should have specified or focused on predominantly black artists and creators, as a lot of these dance moves and memes were popularised by white (and Asian) people too, on top of that, many aren't or weren't necessarily coined by artists per se, but random YouTubers or people who just happened to go viral.

I mean damn, the idea of having to pay people off for including popular dance moves or memes in different mediums and media, just adds a distasteful and unnecessarily stiffling business element to what are otherwise international cultural viral phenomenons and memes. And where do you draw the line? Should people be payed off for including the 'robot' dance move in their game, movie, show or whatever else too?

Dringus · Nov 9, 2018

Everything related to this topic hurts my brain

Kyzer · Nov 9, 2018

OP says give him credit, and specifically wants white people to stop, because they specifically are annoying.

The OP is actually terrible and not nearly as logical or nuanced as some of the subsequent posts. Doesn't even seem aware there are dances from other races in the game, hell even thinking of these dances in terms of race is hella suspicious. Give JB credit. Not OP.

Mass_Pincup · Nov 9, 2018

Zukuu said:
They can't. Names do cause legal trouble.

The whole point is that there's no copyright around those dance moves.

Mikey1123 · Nov 9, 2018

Fortnite should only use dances that their employees come up with. Imagine the dance moves Tim Sweeney has.

BadAss2961 · Nov 9, 2018

nib95 said:
Fortnite didn't act like it invented it, Fortnite isn't even a sentient being, it's a product. Fortnite also isn't erasing culture, its adding to it. It's popularising elements of culture and bringing with it its own.

Ultimately Fortnite is itself a generational cultural phenomenon, and the vast majority of its players know the dances and emotes within it are derived from other sources, memes, videos etc. Hell the videos that compare Fortnite dances/animations with the original sources in and of themselves have tens of millions of views. Fortnite has very likely led to more streams, views etc of the original sources, songs and so on.

Case in point.

Qikz said:
The problem is they're not legally required to give credit since dances are public domain (from what I understand).

The other thing is if they credit someone, what if someone then says "hey, they didn't create this, I did!" - it's just looking for more trouble than just not saying anything at all. If something is public domain then you can't legally assume any ownership over things at all. It's the way the law works and while it's flawed in many ways Epic are well within their rights not to credit things.

The issue is kids are not going to take the time to learn what the dances are called and this is why they're being referred to as fortnite dances.

These are pretty much the answers to this issue.

OP overstepped this one with the wokeness. Calm down bro.

GraveRobberX · Nov 9, 2018

I was FaceTiming with my niece (shes 7), she was like watch this

does the floss dance, by mistake I said Fortnite dance
she goes no this is Floss
stops
jumps on one leg, stomps, pumps get fist up and goes that's Fortnite Dance

so I have no idea lol

TsuWave · Nov 9, 2018

cut the check epic, cut the check and let the dance originators eat

Deleted member 2595 · Nov 9, 2018

SCB360 said:
And why should it? Just cause you say so?

Its just a dance, something we as humans have done for our entire existence, its not stealing culture, its embracing it

There are entire schools of academia about studying cultural roots and overlap and tracking the connections and references for where culture came from. Not in an ownership way, but in a respecting and understanding culture way.

It would cost nothing for them to reference who invented the dance and out their name on it, just as a mark of respect to the culture.

Redfox088 · Nov 9, 2018

Grouch Douglass said:
"Cultural erasure is a practice in which a dominant culture, for example a colonizing nation, attempts to negate, suppress, remove and, in effect, erase the culture of a subordinate culture. The idea of "civilizing" nonwhite people can be seen as cultural erasure."

How is putting these dances in a game cultural erasure? Did OP mean cultural appropriation?

Because the origin gets lost in translation and popularization. It becomes a superficial source of intrigue and also patronizing to the original audience/creators. Blacks in general take that fugazi shot personally. How many white people say bye felicia or what's good. Without even knowing the meaning or the origin?

But it's not that big of a deal tho, it's the cost of having that drip.

This is turning into damage control.

GraveRobberX · Nov 9, 2018

Also how the hell do you setup royalties for a dance?

It could be the same dance with 2 different movements yet look the same, then what?

I'm waiting out on Bobby Shurmd and FBI gyrating into a backflip, drops gun, goes off, plays it off cool, exit stage right dance

Brunire · Nov 9, 2018

GraveRobberX said:
I was FaceTiming with my niece (shes 7), she was like watch this

does the floss dance, by mistake I said Fortnite dance
she goes no this is Floss
stops
jumps on one leg, stomps, pumps get fist up and goes that's Fortnite Dance

so I have no idea lol

I really enjoyed this lol

Redfox088 · Nov 9, 2018

GraveRobberX said:
Also how the hell do you setup royalties for a dance?

It could be the same dance with 2 different movements yet look the same, then what?

I'm waiting out on Bobby Shurmd and FBI gyrating into a backflip, drops gun, goes off, plays it off cool, exit stage right dance

You market the dance as the artist. Just like COD voice packs.

Alek · Nov 9, 2018

DigitalOp said:
Its a comment on the relationship between Black Culture and White America. Its all ugly for them until you can make a buck off of it. Fortnite is a modern extension of that right now.

And yet we still get rocked on for wearing our clothes. "Baggy" isn't proper. "DooRags" are Ghetto until Chanel does it on the runway and charges 1000$ for it.

And a business has a right to have a Dress Code, but its cute that you say its "Mainstream" now when we still primarily are targeting for participating in our own culture to begin with.

I don't know a human being whose default attire doesn't fall short of that dress code. I don't think it targets any specific culture. Int he UK, those just sound like the default clothing worn by the working class.

no1 · Nov 9, 2018

GraveRobberX said:
Also how the hell do you setup royalties for a dance?

It could be the same dance with 2 different movements yet look the same, then what?

I'm waiting out on Bobby Shurmd and FBI gyrating into a backflip, drops gun, goes off, plays it off cool, exit stage right dance

Just do it by sale?

PrintedCrayon · Nov 9, 2018

no1 said:
Just do it by sale?

But these items aren't sold piecemeal, are they?

DigitalOp · Nov 9, 2018

Bulby said:
Hip Hop was birthed out of taking other peoples music and re purposing it. Read about some of the copyright issues in that area.

Im curious about how many times that anecdote as actually happened, for it to actually be annoying?

This......is..... RICH hahaha

Im screaming.....

Do some research?

Biz Markie wasn't the first to sample..... but he DAMN SURE was the first to get sued! Ever since then, HipHop Artists had to clear their samples before using the content on their albums. Labels opened whole departments to help with this process. There hasn't been one artist who used a sample without permission since then!

You basically proved my fucking point!

Deleted member 6733 · Nov 9, 2018

nib95 said:
I don't agree. We shouldn't be monetising (in terms of royalties) what are essentially memes, viral dance moves and elements of popular culture, even if said things are being used by content creators to add (monetary) value to their products. Not everything has to have some sort of corporate stamp, ownership and accountability to it. Some things should just be able to be enjoyed without having x, y or z paid off, and in any case, you could argue it is Fortnite that is assisting in making these dance moves part of popular culture, as much as the other way around.

For all we know Fortnite may have already indirectly increased revenue for the original sources of these things, by way of users seeking out the original meme or song videos etc as a result of seeing them in Fortnite, thus increasing the original creators ad revenue and awareness or coverage.

Also, I'm not sure the OP should have specified or focused on predominantly black artists and creators, as a lot of these dance moves and memes were popularised by white (and Asian) people too, on top of that, many aren't or weren't necessarily coined by artists per se, but random YouTubers or people who just happened to go viral.

I mean damn, the idea of having to pay people off for including popular dance moves or memes in different mediums and media, just adds a distasteful and unnecessarily stiffling business element to what are otherwise international cultural viral phenomenons and memes. And where do you draw the line? Should people be payed off for including the 'robot' dance move in their game, movie, show or whatever else too?

Best post in this thread. I'd 'like' if I could.

I can't add much more to what I quoted, it's essentially what I was thinking.

BTW. This Halloween I was opening the door to trick or treaters wearing my Deadpool mask and a big Infinity Gauntlet with lights and sounds, kind of a mashup Thanos-Pool, in Deadpool character.

One of the kids asked me what Tier I am. I had no idea what she was going on about. A whatsapp friend suggested she was asking about Fortnite. Yup. She recognised the gauntlett from that damn game, not Marvel smh.

Deleted member 5167 · Nov 9, 2018

DigitalOp said:
Biz Markie wasn't the first to sample..... but he DAMN SURE was the first to get sued!

No he wasn't. There have been cases of artists and labels suing for sampling since the 60s.

DigitalOp · Nov 9, 2018

GraveRobberX said:
I was FaceTiming with my niece (shes 7), she was like watch this

does the floss dance, by mistake I said Fortnite dance
she goes no this is Floss
stops
jumps on one leg, stomps, pumps get fist up and goes that's Fortnite Dance

so I have no idea lol

damn this is funny, but it kinda sucks....

People mention Fortnite boosting the source....

HOW? Thats the point of the damn thread! There is no name to search! No artists to reference!

You all keep making this damn claim that literally goes against the whole point of the thread. I gotta watch the dance montages to see if they even credited the right people now.

Dr Wily said:
No he wasn't. There have been cases of artists and labels suing for sampling since the 60s.

The guy was talking about Hip-Hop...

Who the fuck got in trouble for sampling in the 60's if HipHop wasn't created until the late 70s?

dancegrenade · Nov 9, 2018

Yeah I am so outraged!

/s

Get a grip bro.

Gloomz · Nov 9, 2018

Chessguy1 said:
https://www.resetera.com/threads/ch...es-money-should-be-shared-with-artists.55531/

Reading through those comments was a mistake.

How could anyone possibly disagree that appropriating this shit, changing the name, not crediting where it came from and on top of that, making millions of dollars off someone else's creation is fucked up?

Deleted member 5167 · Nov 9, 2018

DigitalOp said:
HOW? Thats the point of the damn thread! There is no name to search! No artists to reference!

How do artists who get used in an advert get sales for their music when the advert doesn't show their name or the track name anywhere in the advert?

e:

DigitalOp said:
The guy was talking about Hip-Hop...

Who the fuck got in trouble for sampling in the 60's if HipHop wasn't created until the late 70s?

He was saying Hip Hop is based on sampling, which it is, and that you should look up the history of sampling and the legality of it which you didn't.
Biz Markie wasn't even the first hip hop artist to get sued for sampling.

DigitalOp · Nov 9, 2018

Dr Wily said:
How do artists who get used in an advert get sales for their music when the advert doesn't show their name or the track name anywhere in the advert?

You're so far off base, it makes no sense

What does this have to do with Fortnite and people getting credit and compensated? Cuz neither is happening for them. I don't even see how what you're saying is relevant

J-Skee · Nov 9, 2018

dishonestjest said:
Reading through those comments was a mistake.

How could anyone possibly disagree that appropriating this shit, changing the name, not crediting where it came from and on top of that, making millions of dollars off someone else's creation is fucked up?

Anyone who sees the Milly Rock & "Swipe It" dance from Fortnite side by side & still thinks this isn't appropriation are honestly crazy.

Deleted member 5167 · Nov 9, 2018

DigitalOp said:
You're so far off base, it makes no sense

What does this have to do with Fortnite and people getting credit and compensated? Cuz neither is happening for them. I don't even see how what you're saying is relevant

People can, will, and do look up the source of things. A "I invented _____ in Fortnite" on a twitter profile will get exposure regardless of any in game credit.

Woetyler · Nov 9, 2018

Sure people deserve some credit, but imo it's literally a dance, unfortunately that's how the world works.

Deleted member 36037 · Nov 9, 2018

This is as stupid as wanting to be compensated when a quote, idea, original expression or meme is used in a game or movie.

Like why isn't the master meme inventor of the expression "200 IQ" compensated or credited for the "200 IQ" icon in fortnite?

There's also a spray in Fortnite where you paint a tunnel on a surface. Why isn't that credited to the inventor of that humorous practical joke?

Should Epic be obligated to credit specific internet users if they use their forum-submitted suggestion in their game?

Should Arnold Schwarzenegger be compensated anytime anyone in a book, song, movie or game says "I'll be back!" or "Hasta la vista, baby"?

No.

Deleted member 11413 · Nov 9, 2018

Zukuu said:
They can't. Names do cause legal trouble.

Not if they get permission from the creator to use the name.

no1 · Nov 9, 2018

PrintedCrayon said:
But these items aren't sold piecemeal, are they?

Nearly every dance is sold through vbucks, and the store. Either that or the pass.

So royalities on the people who pay for the pass upgrades to the dance and on the store.

Not like you're gonna get that off of the people earning the dances.

hanmik · Nov 9, 2018

Lord of Ostia said:
Not if they get permission from the creator to use the name.

how does one "prove" that you are the creator?

And the tier 100 skin for season 3 in the game is a John Wick lookalike.. should they be credited?

Deleted member 11413 · Nov 9, 2018

Paraside said:
There are entire schools of academia about studying cultural roots and overlap and tracking the connections and references for where culture came from. Not in an ownership way, but in a respecting and understanding culture way.

It would cost nothing for them to reference who invented the dance and out their name on it, just as a mark of respect to the culture.

Thank you

DigitalOp · Nov 9, 2018

nib95 said:

That video doesn't even have the proper credit for some of these dances...

3rd comment with 715 likes : Fortnite basically steals and doesn't give credit to the person who made it and stuff!! So they stole emotes and renamed it.

And y'all can kiss my ass for this one. Here is a video citing the Top 10 Dances.....

And #1 is the HYPE....

BUT THE GUY DOESNT KNOW WHERE THE SOURCE IS FROM. HE PLAYS A VIDEO OF A WHITE USHER DOING THE MOVE.

And y'all wanna sit here and act like Im fucking crazy? When this shit PROVES my fucking point?

Fairxchange · Nov 9, 2018

These dances usually start in social settings and then make their way to artists who promote them at shows or in videos. So you if pay the most visible artists doing the dances, you'd still be shorting the dancers who made up the move. I think Epic and other companies selling these dance moves should donate to groups that work with kids in the regions that these dances emerge from.

Deleted member 11413 · Nov 9, 2018

hanmik said:
how does one "prove" that you are the creator?

And the tier 100 skin for season 3 in the game is a John Wick lookalike.. should they be credited?

I mean it really depends. The OP is highlighting a case where the creator of the dance is asking to be credited. At the very least, Epic could honor his request. If other creators are impossible to locate or do not want to be credited then they don't have to be. If no one knows the creator of something, but it comes from a specific culture, then they can say which culture it originated from.

Bulby · Nov 9, 2018

DigitalOp said:
The guy was talking about Hip-Hop...

I actually wasnt arguing with you. I was literally saying. Read about some of the copyright issues there cause there are similarities.

I took issue with Cultural Erasure, cause hip hop shares many similarities, when its infact just a celebration. No doubt artists should be credited. Cultural erasure? No

Depths · Nov 9, 2018

Is the kid you see at NBA games supposed to announce "I know this dance originated from BlocBoy JB" before performing the dance or something?

DigitalOp · Nov 9, 2018

Depths said:
Is the kid you see at NBA games supposed to announce "I know this dance originated from BlocBoy JB" before performing the dance or something?

Deleted member 5167 · Nov 9, 2018

Lord of Ostia said:
I mean it really depends. The OP is highlighting a case where the creator of the dance is asking to be credited. At the very least, Epic could honor his request. If other creators are impossible to locate or do not want to be credited then they don't have to be. If no one knows the creator of something, but it comes from a specific culture, then they can say which culture it originated from.

Is it 'credit' or is it 'money' though?
Chance the Rapper wasn't talking about crediting people. He was talking about paying them.
If someone wants accreditation, I'm sure they could voluntarily waive any legal issues and have their name and their official name for the dance there as a collaboration. I don't see why Epic or their lawyers would have any problem with that.
If they want a payment cut, then thats not going to happen, for a variety of reasons.

osodemolay · Nov 9, 2018

I really don't think that the creators of dances should be paid and it doesn't make sense trademarking body movements, but at least EPIC (or any studio) should put a description on the dances menu acknowledging where that dance move comes from, something like: (Name of the dance), As seen in (insert video name).
Win-Win.

GodofWine · Nov 9, 2018

Derachi said:
Every time I hear the phrase "the Fortnite dance" I die a little more inside. They really gotta do something.

Dude...I coach a few youth sports since last year...6-8 year olds so far (my son is 7), I've on 2 occasions, lost my shit over the boys dancing on the field / court not paying any attention to the other team / me / or a baseball headed at their f'ing faces (yes, we've had lost teeth - I check "BASEBALL READY" - they get ready and look ready, then in the instant the pitch is thrown they f-ing floss or some shit).

Now, any dancing = you have to go over to your parents and tell them you broke coach's rules and will be sitting with them for an inning / 5 minutes. (which worked well)

GraveRobberX · Nov 9, 2018

DigitalOp

your not wrong by any way, thing is these things can't just be measured by give such and such credit or pay royalties or homage

I don't know that much about copyright but likeness to a degree is possible. That's why NFL, NBA spam the ever living Shit out of broadcast being reelected and the nonsense of likeness can be met with harsh penalty.

yet people create gifs galore of sporting events, hell they get remixed back and forth that you forget who originally posted it
its that Gray area

before the league's were mad as fuck about their properties but they've come around, hell embraced it

sorry for going off topic but it segue ways into that yes people should be credited, but it takes resources to do so. There's a gray area to this whole component

guy does goofy dance, goes viral. Sells or lets bigger viral company make it go big. Now who's dance is it. Then Fortnite borrows it, sells it, who gets compensated. Later down the line the guy really stole it from another guys vid that has like 20 views to be say 50,000 for his views and with the viral company pumping it up to say 500,000

Also record/music companies are notorious as fuck once you sign on the dotted line, you give up a lot
You never know the Artist might have been creator of dance, yet the moves can be owned by the record company if it's in the contract
(hypothetical, but possible)

just take a look at the disaster that is youtube and monetization of vids and how many people claim to be the rightful participant to receive the money of it by flagging it

Razgriz-Specter · Nov 9, 2018

Phantom said:
Honestly Fortnite, PUBG, Blackout, all these games and/or modes are just showing how creatively bankrupt this industry is, kinda like Hollywood.

Blackout doesn't have any meme emotes, yet.

DigitalOp · Nov 9, 2018

Dr Wily said:
He was saying Hip Hop is based on sampling, which it is, and that you should look up the history of sampling and the legality of it which you didn't.
Biz Markie wasn't even the first hip hop artist to get sued for sampling.

It was 2 Live Crew and Vanilla Ice.

And were going to pretend Biz Markie's case wasn't the most dramatic and resulted into the most changes that artists deal with now?

MC Hammer settled out of court, he doesn't count.

"Fortnite Dances" is Cultural Erasure. Straight Up.

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