Why do games lack Non-Binary/Gender fluid options and characters?

I think it's just that some devs don't believe in these new gender identities, so it doesn't even cross their mind to include more diverse options in their games. I imagine it's a bit easier for some of these developers to remain ignorant on the inclusion of more gender identities when they aren't actively thinking about something they don't really believe in, or when they don't really have much exposure to these ideas on a day to day basis. It's why, I feel, having a diversity initiative at some of these companies can do wonders in making some titles more welcoming to those who don't adhere to current gender conventions(or older gender conventions I guess). Yeah, they'll be push back, but it's to be expected this early on, and it'll take time for these things to be accepted, but I'm sure it'll happen. Just look at how much more accepting the U.S is to homosexuality verses 10/20/30 years ago.

Hopefully in time, when these ideas become a bit more mainstream, and the industry itself becomes more diverse and accepting, we begin to see these changes in our games.

I'm on mobile, so please pardon some typos if there are any.

I feel like I need to give a small shoutout to The Sims 4 in this.

It didn't ship with this, but about a year into the game, they released an update to the Create-a-Sim part.

It did three things:
1. A third gender option: "Custom". What is your character's physical sex, what gender do they identify as and such.
2. Both male and female body types got a second shape where they were more androgynous. Combine that with the extensive sliders already in place and you can make a lot of body types.
3. All clothes, hair, and accessories are now available to all characters. They do have a default "Masculine" or "Feminine" tag in the search, but you can remove that and pick from the full catalog.

I'm not genderfluid myself, so I can't really say how good this is, but it did make me smile to go back to the game and see a third option and then have it be a big dropdown menu where you could create the gender you'd want. There is, of course, room for improvement, but it's better than the hard male/female boundaries it started with.

ry-dog said:

If Cyberpunk includes the option (which it absolutely should because its source material did)

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I don't think that's true, at least not officially. The rulebook doesn't really touch the subject, and by the 2020 edition they didn't even bother mentioning that the "rockerboy" role has a -girl variant.

VaanXSnake said:

non binary characters... what is this ?

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maybe read the thread and educate yourself?

McNum said:

I feel like I need to give a small shoutout to The Sims 4 in this.

It didn't ship with this, but about a year into the game, they released an update to the Create-a-Sim part.

It did three things:
1. A third gender option: "Custom". What is your character's physical sex, what gender do they identify as and such.
2. Both male and female body types got a second shape where they were more androgynous. Combine that with the extensive sliders already in place and you can make a lot of body types.
3. All clothes, hair, and accessories are now available to all characters. They do have a default "Masculine" or "Feminine" tag in the search, but you can remove that and pick from the full catalog.

I'm not genderfluid myself, so I can't really say how good this is, but it did make me smile to go back to the game and see a third option and then have it be a big dropdown menu where you could create the gender you'd want. There is, of course, room for improvement, but it's better than the hard male/female boundaries it started with.

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You can also choose how the characters pee and if they get pregnant or get others pregnant.

I think most devs are just taking this into account recently, as these terms and the widespread discussion of gender identities are a recent phenomenon (and it's a good thing that more and more people are waking up to matters such as this). I mean, unfortunately it'll be some time until publishers (lead largely by white men or otherwise funded mostly by wealthy white male investors) are open to such subjects, and there'll certainly always be people against it, but I think we should see more inclusive options as time passes.

Nintendo said:

You can also choose how the characters pee and if they get pregnant or get others pregnant.

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Yeah, which is a kind of cute way to ask about the character's anatomy in a way that doesn't change the game rating.

It does make sense for The Sims to do this, though. A big part of it for a lot of people is making a Sim version of themselves. So having these options is great. It more or less just uses Male and Female as presets in these settings now, but if you need some other combination of the parts the game needs to know for game mechanics, well, you can set that up yourself. I'm not entirely sure if this is the best way to do it, but on the other hand, having the game acknowledge that you chose "Neither" for gender and then asking for details is probably a big step in the right direction, at least.

Nintendo said:

You can also choose how the characters pee and if they get pregnant or get others pregnant.

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huh, that's pretty damn neat

TheMadTitan said:

Because white males and straight males in general are still in charge. That's not a negative statement, that's just how it is. We're just now budging from the white male default and making headway into female protags and protags of other ethnicities, and the issue of gender fluidity is still one of those fringe things people don't know about or understand, even among those who're generally accepting.

Coupled with non-binary people being a minority within a minority, it's probably going to take a bit. I mean, shit, people have been hammering home on LGBT issues for it seems like eons now, and we're just barely betting past the B to tackle the T; these sorts of issues don't move fast.

Saints Row is probably the closest we're getting for awhile.

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Yeah, it takes time. It's kinda shitty for those looking for these options but it takes time. Hopefully we see better options in the future buy when it comes down to it, most devs are going to target the largest demographic in order to maximize profits. This should be pretty easy to do for most mp , and rpg games, hower.

ResetERA has only three options for gender too. Why?

Olaf said:

ResetERA has only three options for gender too. Why?

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I think I saw someone say that it's an artifact of the forum software.

Syril said:

I think I saw someone say that it's an artifact of the forum software.

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sadly this, I've asked before as well

Buckley said:

Yeah, it takes time. It's kinda shitty for those looking for these options but it takes time. Hopefully we see better options in the future buy when it comes down to it, most devs are going to target the largest demographic in order to maximize profits. This should be pretty easy to do for most mp , and rpg games, hower.

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Someone needs to come up with a middleware character creator engine that's easily ported to various engines. That way, the biggest hurdle is removed then and there.

Olaf said:

ResetERA has only three options for gender too. Why?

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Do you seriously want to include all 103280473+ genders in a list?
That doesn't sound completely absurd to you?

What would make more sense to me is to have male/female/<enter your own> . Nobody can be expected to remember what all these new ones are.
Or, maybe even better, no gender selection at all. This isn't a dating site - or did I just not unlock that feature yet?

It is somewhat more complicated for games, at least if they need to refer to the character via text, etc.
But still doable. In a more modern setting, I'd probably do it. In a historical setting, there should be male and female and that's it - because nobody back then would refer to anything else so it doesn't make sense to include it.

Localisation problems could also be an issue. It is not necessarily easy to find alternatives for pronouns in every language, as many do not have neutral pronouns.

Syril said:

I think I saw someone say that it's an artifact of the forum software.

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It's not like someone with a bit of php/database knowledge couldnt fix it.

a

TheSHEEEP said:

Or, maybe even better, no gender selection at all. This isn't a dating site

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I agree with this.

Regarding games, I think gender fluid and non binary options in certain games should be included for sure, the reason I think it is not happening yet is because because your average COD / GTA gamer are just not interested at the moment and there is not much demand for it.

I think in time we will see these options start to appear in games.

It's not that it's not important, its that the nonbinary movement is still fairly fresh as far as movements go. I'd be unsurprised to hear that many devs and even maybe full on development studios had never heard anyone speak on the issue. It's still kind of like the type of thing where, unless you know someone going through it all, you may not even know the issue even exists.

Dont worry, times will catch up on this one, at least in games that tout character creation.

I personaly don't care what pronoun someone uses for me as long as there's still respect and politeness.

Monolithsoft said:

I personaly don't care what pronoun someone use for me as long as there's still respect and politeness.

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.

People have given several reasons. The world, not just the industry, has a lot of catching up to do, I feel. I surely hope we start seeing these things sooner than later. Having more options takes nothing away from those who don't use them and can mean the world for those who do.

Because this new gender stuff was kinda only invented recently.

Rome wasn't built in a day.

Usually gender is tied to the look of a character model, so doesn't it make sense to have a biological based choice?

I guess it would be nice if clothing options could be interchangeable. The main issue and the main reason why this isn't done is probably because it would cost developer time and money, and would only appeal to a very small subsection of your average game's audience.

And also because, sadly, a very loud minority is likely to scream bloody murder.

Because several people don't even know what gender-fluid means!

Stipulate and educate, shmipulate and shmeducate... time will make necessities out of things eventualleh.

Still. We need more games like SRIV. *eyes Volition*

Kinthey said:

They'll have to record 3 lines any time the main character is addressed with a pronoun or gendered. In a huge RPG that adds up. For Ubisoft it was even too much of an expense to do it consistently with the two genders in Far Cry 5



People tend to bring up saints row as a positive but it's also very noticeable that the main character isn't ever gendered in any dialogue

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I played as a girl in Far Cry 5 and I was referred several times as he in cut scenes and by various bad guys. They definitely didn't catch those mistakes.

Kinthey said:

They'll have to record 3 lines any time the main character is addressed with a pronoun or gendered. In a huge RPG that adds up. For Ubisoft it was even too much of an expense to do it consistently with the two genders in Far Cry 5



People tend to bring up saints row as a positive but it's also very noticeable that the main character isn't ever gendered in any dialogue

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can't use Ubisoft when referring to anything about gender

Video games in general lack nuance.

I would like to say some things now, but then I get banned...

Xenor said:

I would like to say some things now, but then I get banned...

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mm?

Probably because non-binary or whatever your want to call it isn't real. And now for the part where I get banned for having an opinion that isn't popular but is also the opinion of the silent majority

pwnsweet said:

Probably because non-binary or whatever your want to call it isn't real. And now for the part where I get banned for having an opinion that isn't popular but is also the opinion of the silent majority

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Boohoo I can't handle people being different from me. Don't fool yourself into thinking you're part of the majority. You're not. It's mainly just self-conscious and insecure internet trolls.

pwnsweet said:

Probably because non-binary or whatever your want to call it isn't real. And now for the part where I get banned for having an opinion that isn't popular but is also the opinion of the silent majority

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No shit it's part of the silent majority. It's also fucking wrong.

Have fun being on the wrong side of history.

Xenor said:

I would like to say some things now, but then I get banned...

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Let me guess: you don't think non-binary folks are a thing?

Well, fuck right off, then. What do you think you have to contribute anyway, if this is what you provide us with?

pwnsweet said:

Probably because non-binary or whatever your want to call it isn't real. And now for the part where I get banned for having an opinion that isn't popular but is also the opinion of the silent majority

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Well yes, discrimination against non-binary people does run afoul against the rules on this site yes. But sure, be arrogant in your ignorance and proud of your hate. That sure will make you fell better not understanding something.

who knew the person who would post this https://www.resetera.com/posts/11134483/

would be a bigot?

Or maybe they're just really *snickers* imaginative!

pwnsweet said:

Probably because non-binary or whatever your want to call it isn't real. And now for the part where I get banned for having an opinion that isn't popular but is also the opinion of the silent majority

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I like how people pretend that being in the majority means that an opinion is okay. People like "pwnsweet" would probably be talking about how uppity black folks were back in the day, but hey, he wouldn't be racist, the silent majority opposed the Civil Rights Movement you know!

It's a numbers thing. The % of the audience who wants this type of option is very low, and adding features to games costs money and time.

Gloomy said:

With games with customization , none really allow for the use of other pronouns besides male or female and things like clothes options are restricted to one gender.

Is it really impossible to just label characters masculine and feminine then ask for desired pronouns and not lock anything?

Isn't the point of creating an avatar to put what you desire onto them , if that is so then why create such restrictions? Its like "if you want this hairstyle then play the male character" , "if you want this outfit then play the female character" , it gets repetitive to see with games.

It would be cool to see developers add like third character model , if some people really don't like options for their characters and allow them for those that want them all. I'd be interested in playing game like pokemon etc if they allowed more freedom with the characters. But unfortunately the games that I have interest in don't really allow that either.

Playing a fixed character with a name and outfit is better then creating a character with restrictions on what they can wear and how they can look. At least then they are representing themselves. It sucks having to spend time creating some restricted custom character.

It would be pretty cool to see main characters/side characters in big games with such identification but I dunno if that will happen any time soon.

What do you think about Non binary/Gender fluid identifies and their lack of presence in many games? What do you think can be done about it?

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Didn't comment on the OP, so let me say that I'm right with you here.

Dragon's Dogma is the most notable example in my mind as it lets you create some really fascinating characters with its incredible facial and body customization. Still binary, but the amount of variation allows you to make just about anyone you can think of, which I think counts for a lot. At least I was pretty pleased by it, even if they could have gone a little bit further (such as by opening up the voice options regardless of sex). Either way, your character's gender is irrelevant to the story and I actually can't think of any moment where your character is referred to in the third person, aside from the incredibly generic "get 'em!" that bandits will toss your way before engaging.

The Souls games are also noteworthy in this regard, mainly because clothing and armor are 99% gender neutral and make it almost impossible to tell at a glance.

Unfortunately, most games are indeed not Dragon's Dogma and I find myself utterly disappointed time and time again. It feels like far too many developers are still stuck in the era of performative gender norms and keep pushing gendered clothing and other such nonsense onto players, on top of overly restrictive character creation options. I really wish we could do better on this front. Not just a matter of representation, but because a good character creator should principally support such options as a rule, purely as a matter of quality and breadth. Settling for less often just feels like giving up to me.

I don't expect much change or improvement on this front any time soon, but I can at least say that I have my fingers crossed for Dragon's Dogma 2 to be Itsuno's next game after he's done with DMC V...

I'm making sure to implement all of these in the next game I'm working on. Strangely enough, it actually TAKES MORE TIME to lock options to gender/etc.

Gloomy said:

With games with customization , none really allow for the use of other pronouns besides male or female and things like clothes options are restricted to one gender.

Is it really impossible to just label characters masculine and feminine then ask for desired pronouns and not lock anything?

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For what it's worth, Rock Band 4 is like this. Your body types are labeled "masculine" or "feminine" and no clothes are locked to gender, or even any hair option. They also have Male, Female, and Non-Binary as gender options when filtering songs for the singer.

Why would gender pronouns matter.
I don't think I've ever seen them refer to the main character as "he" or "she" they always just use their name.

Syril said:

I think I saw someone say that it's an artifact of the forum software.

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Like this is not code that can be changed. Come on lol

So.... ?

TheSHEEEP said:

Do you seriously want to include all 103280473+ genders in a list?
That doesn't sound completely absurd to you?

What would make more sense to me is to have male/female/<enter your own> . Nobody can be expected to remember what all these new ones are.
Or, maybe even better, no gender selection at all. This isn't a dating site - or did I just not unlock that feature yet?

It is somewhat more complicated for games, at least if they need to refer to the character via text, etc.
But still doable. In a more modern setting, I'd probably do it. In a historical setting, there should be male and female and that's it - because nobody back then would refer to anything else so it doesn't make sense to include it.

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If you're referring to the THERE'S OVER 60+ GENDER OPTIONS ON FB thing, you are aware almost all of those are just different ways of saying cis male, cis female, trans man, trans woman, yes? It's basically those 4 options plus non-binary and two-spirit. But repeated over 60 times in different ways.

pwnsweet said:

Probably because non-binary or whatever your want to call it isn't real. And now for the part where I get banned for having an opinion that isn't popular but is also the opinion of the silent majority

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Only a month for this on a junior account?

Megatron said:

We can barely get women and POC as protagonists, sadly.

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I don't think it's the same issue.

I think OP's distinction of "fixed" characters identifying themselves is important. Having options locked to gender is limiting in a space where customization, self-expression, and identifying with your character are paramount. Not being able to identify with a fixed protagonist is an empathy issue.

Skittles said:

Only a month for this on a junior account?

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Only a month,yep

Comes in to spit on my nb friends reading this very thread (and my nb friend who MADE this fucking thread)to see that Era staff believe they're worthy enough to get a second chance. What message do you think this sends?

This person isn't going to learn, when they come back they'll lay low until they're forgotten, with sly gender-mocking and "hurr durr Era mods don't like my OPINIONS" until they finally get permed, while others who see this post and ban length and get fed up more and more with what slides on this site, until they leave and never come back.

Era staff, you're losing way more by only giving this a slap on the wrist

EDIT Thank you mods

pwnsweet said:

Probably because non-binary or whatever your want to call it isn't real. And now for the part where I get banned for having an opinion that isn't popular but is also the opinion of the silent majority

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This got....one month.

This motherfucker should have been permabanned for saying this bigoted bullshit. I am a gender fluid, non-binary person and I do not feel represented by this decision in the slightest. Not only did they say I don't exist and my identity doesn't exist but they said that this is also the opinion of the silent majority. They should have been permanently banned to show that, no, this isn't the opinion of the silent majority, but a month ban that will let them come back and still bring this bullshit here is not only invalidating, but disheartening and makes me deeply sad and hurt because it reinforces that the "silent majority" may just be a thing. That ignorance on this topic doesn't deserve the same harsh punishment that ignorance on other topics does because it's "new" or "people don't understand it yet".

I don't know what the actual decision was that deemed what this person said not harmful enough that they should get another shot at discourse on this forum, but I honestly don't know that I want to be here when they return. I'm not comfortable being around for a member of the "silent majority" to shit all over my identity, or to even be present when said person is around and I know that they are. That's fucking bullshit, and had that person not been banned I would have raised the fucking Earth off the core of the planet into the sky and crashed it down onto their head in rage at the dehumanization that they displayed towards myself and others like me.

It's a fucking JOKE to ever expect that I will be represented in video games when I can't even be represented properly on one of the biggest, most diverse video game communities on the entire internet.



Look. This is my face. I am an androgynous, gender-fluid, non-binary person. I am real. My identity is real. And pwnsweet and the "silent majority" can expect that I will NEVER consider their opinions or discourse worthy of coexisting with here or ANYWHERE ELSE. EVER. My very humanity and identity was attacked in heinous fashion, and I will not be silent or held back from speaking my mind on this person or their horrid IGNORANCE. And how can I feel comfortable with the sentiment that plenty of other posters feel the same way but just aren't saying so? How can I co-exist with that? I can't. Get pwnsweet out of here for the sake of my safety and others like me. Good day.

Jobbs said:

It's a numbers thing. The % of the audience who wants this type of option is very low, and adding features to games costs money and time.

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I don't think that's fair. For one, I didn't know I wanted it until this thread. Video games, particularly ones I can create my character, is the space I experiment the most with feelings of identity and gender.

pwnsweet said:

Probably because non-binary or whatever your want to call it isn't real. And now for the part where I get banned for having an opinion that isn't popular but is also the opinion of the silent majority

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Just wanted to establish publicly that it's absolutely abhorrent this person only got a one-month ban for openly denying the identity of many users on this forum. The mods on this site have a lot to answer for, but this one is particularly egregious. This person and their views should not be welcome in our community, period, end of conversation.

I think Fallen London does?