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SapientWolf

Member
Nov 6, 2017
6,565
Constantly bringing up mental illness in threads like this is very inappropriate.

If there's no specific link it's no different from asking 'are they left handed?' Or 'do they play a lot of video games?' 'Did they eat a well balanced breakfast this morning?'

Unless you have some specific evidence of a link it's not relevant to the topic so leave it out. You cannot diagnose people you've never met of mental illness over the internet so please stop trying
There's no reason to tone police the discussion about mental illness as long as people are aware that an isolated incident isn't sufficient evidence to definitively diagnose someone. Speculation about mental health are a normal part of the dialogue when something this fucked up happens.
 
Oct 29, 2017
1,037
There's no reason to tone police the discussion about mental illness as long as people are aware that an isolated incident isn't sufficient evidence to definitively diagnose someone. Speculation about mental health are a normal part of the dialogue when something this fucked up happens.
Unless there is any evidence it is related to the story it is not something that should be speculated about. There is no evidence it is relevant to the story
 

Brinbe

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
58,886
Terana
What the fuck. Glad she survived and is doing okay.

Shit reminds me of that Worst Generations thread made the other day. Entitled idiots. Not sure how you make the leap from wanting to be in a relationship to attempted murder. Toxic and vile as fuck. Makes my stomach churn thinking about it. Doubt these morons ever take the two seconds to think about how their victims feel about their unwanted/unwarranted harassment.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,345
It always amazes me how people scratch and claw to be able to avoid the obvious.

There's a desperation here to declare that it must be mental illness or some combinations of other factors. Anything to avoid admitting the obvious that we live in a society that places men's feelings above women's safety, that we still live in a misogynistic culture where women are still frequently perceived as simply the item/the prize at the end of a male conquest, a concept that is repeated and repeated in popular culture, even harmless videogames. It must be anything but this because if it's this, you'd actually have to pay attention when womem criticize your favorite game, or movie, you'd actually have to admit that these discussions matter. Better to grasp on to any other explanation, that way you don't have to deal with reality that male dominated culture breeds entitlement, better to grasp on mental illness because then it's not that men and boys can't take no for an answer it's that this girl had the misfortune of saying no to a mentally ill child, and it was just random and not systemic or symptomatic of a greater cultural misogyny problem. That the solution isn't the deconstruction of male dominated society but just simply a mental health issue, that it's not cultural or political but brain chemistry. That way folks can say don't be hyperbolic to women when speak they speak up about how saying no is scary because we never know how it's going to be taken, that way you can dismiss our safety concerns and prioritize your feelings.
 

Deleted member 19003

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,809
It always amazes me how people scratch and claw to be able to avoid the obvious.

There's a desperation here to declare that it must be mental illness or some combinations of other factors. Anything to avoid admitting the obvious that we live in a society that places men's feelings above women's safety, that we still live in a misogynistic culture where women are still frequently perceived as simply the item/the prize at the end of a male conquest, a concept that is repeated and repeated in popular culture, even harmless videogames. It must be anything but this because if it's this, you'd actually have to pay attention when womem criticize your favorite game, or movie, you'd actually have to admit that these discussions matter. Better to grasp on to any other explanation, that way you don't have to deal with reality that male dominated culture breeds entitlement, better to grasp on mental illness because then it's not that men and boys can't take no for an answer it's that this girl had the misfortune of saying no to a mentally ill child, and it was just random and not systemic or symptomatic of a greater cultural misogyny problem. That the solution isn't the deconstruction of male dominated society but just simply a mental health issue, that it's not cultural or political but brain chemistry. That way folks can say don't be hyperbolic to women when speak they speak up about how saying no is scary because we never know how it's going to be taken, that way you can dismiss our safety concerns and prioritize your feelings.
Well said!
 

NoRéN

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,623
It always amazes me how people scratch and claw to be able to avoid the obvious.

There's a desperation here to declare that it must be mental illness or some combinations of other factors. Anything to avoid admitting the obvious that we live in a society that places men's feelings above women's safety, that we still live in a misogynistic culture where women are still frequently perceived as simply the item/the prize at the end of a male conquest, a concept that is repeated and repeated in popular culture, even harmless videogames. It must be anything but this because if it's this, you'd actually have to pay attention when womem criticize your favorite game, or movie, you'd actually have to admit that these discussions matter. Better to grasp on to any other explanation, that way you don't have to deal with reality that male dominated culture breeds entitlement, better to grasp on mental illness because then it's not that men and boys can't take no for an answer it's that this girl had the misfortune of saying no to a mentally ill child, and it was just random and not systemic or symptomatic of a greater cultural misogyny problem. That the solution isn't the deconstruction of male dominated society but just simply a mental health issue, that it's not cultural or political but brain chemistry. That way folks can say don't be hyperbolic to women when speak they speak up about how saying no is scary because we never know how it's going to be taken, that way you can dismiss our safety concerns and prioritize your feelings.
Great post. Thank you.
 

Laiza

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,171
It always amazes me how people scratch and claw to be able to avoid the obvious.

There's a desperation here to declare that it must be mental illness or some combinations of other factors. Anything to avoid admitting the obvious that we live in a society that places men's feelings above women's safety, that we still live in a misogynistic culture where women are still frequently perceived as simply the item/the prize at the end of a male conquest, a concept that is repeated and repeated in popular culture, even harmless videogames. It must be anything but this because if it's this, you'd actually have to pay attention when womem criticize your favorite game, or movie, you'd actually have to admit that these discussions matter. Better to grasp on to any other explanation, that way you don't have to deal with reality that male dominated culture breeds entitlement, better to grasp on mental illness because then it's not that men and boys can't take no for an answer it's that this girl had the misfortune of saying no to a mentally ill child, and it was just random and not systemic or symptomatic of a greater cultural misogyny problem. That the solution isn't the deconstruction of male dominated society but just simply a mental health issue, that it's not cultural or political but brain chemistry. That way folks can say don't be hyperbolic to women when speak they speak up about how saying no is scary because we never know how it's going to be taken, that way you can dismiss our safety concerns and prioritize your feelings.
Nailed it.

And seriously, it can't be said enough - stigmatizing mental illness like this is an easy trap to fall into, but it is still a trap nonetheless. When 80% of actual murderers don't have a diagnosable illness, bringing it up literally every time a murder happens is just straight-up disingenuous. You know at this point that 4/5 times they're not going to be diagnosed, so please just STOP with the nonsensical bullshit and let us actually talk about the real causative factors - namely, the societal pressures and memes that lead to the behavior being considered a viable option by the attacker(s).
 

SapientWolf

Member
Nov 6, 2017
6,565
Unless there is any evidence it is related to the story it is not something that should be speculated about. There is no evidence it is relevant to the story
There's no way around speculation. Saying that he wasn't mentally ill is just as speculative as saying he wasn't. People are going to make the call they want to make based on their own knowledge, personal experiences and biases. That's literally all a discussion forum is.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,962
It always amazes me how people scratch and claw to be able to avoid the obvious.

There's a desperation here to declare that it must be mental illness or some combinations of other factors. Anything to avoid admitting the obvious that we live in a society that places men's feelings above women's safety, that we still live in a misogynistic culture where women are still frequently perceived as simply the item/the prize at the end of a male conquest, a concept that is repeated and repeated in popular culture, even harmless videogames. It must be anything but this because if it's this, you'd actually have to pay attention when womem criticize your favorite game, or movie, you'd actually have to admit that these discussions matter. Better to grasp on to any other explanation, that way you don't have to deal with reality that male dominated culture breeds entitlement, better to grasp on mental illness because then it's not that men and boys can't take no for an answer it's that this girl had the misfortune of saying no to a mentally ill child, and it was just random and not systemic or symptomatic of a greater cultural misogyny problem. That the solution isn't the deconstruction of male dominated society but just simply a mental health issue, that it's not cultural or political but brain chemistry. That way folks can say don't be hyperbolic to women when speak they speak up about how saying no is scary because we never know how it's going to be taken, that way you can dismiss our safety concerns and prioritize your feelings.

wow, i know others have said it already, but very thoughtful post - thanks for this insight.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
It always amazes me how people scratch and claw to be able to avoid the obvious.

There's a desperation here to declare that it must be mental illness or some combinations of other factors. Anything to avoid admitting the obvious that we live in a society that places men's feelings above women's safety, that we still live in a misogynistic culture where women are still frequently perceived as simply the item/the prize at the end of a male conquest, a concept that is repeated and repeated in popular culture, even harmless videogames. It must be anything but this because if it's this, you'd actually have to pay attention when womem criticize your favorite game, or movie, you'd actually have to admit that these discussions matter. Better to grasp on to any other explanation, that way you don't have to deal with reality that male dominated culture breeds entitlement, better to grasp on mental illness because then it's not that men and boys can't take no for an answer it's that this girl had the misfortune of saying no to a mentally ill child, and it was just random and not systemic or symptomatic of a greater cultural misogyny problem. That the solution isn't the deconstruction of male dominated society but just simply a mental health issue, that it's not cultural or political but brain chemistry. That way folks can say don't be hyperbolic to women when speak they speak up about how saying no is scary because we never know how it's going to be taken, that way you can dismiss our safety concerns and prioritize your feelings.

Thank you for making this.
 
Oct 29, 2017
1,037
There's no way around speculation. Saying that he wasn't mentally ill is just as speculative as saying he wasn't. People are going to make the call they want to make based on their own knowledge, personal experiences and biases. That's literally all a discussion forum is.
That's serious nonsense. I'm saying it isn't relevant to bring up details for which there is no evidence. There is no evidence here regarding mental illness.

I'm not 'speculating' he doesn't have mental illness. I'm saying no one here is in any way qualified to talk about it and with no evidence suggesting it's relevant to the topic it's inappropriate to speculate on.

Unless you are this persons actual health professional the only possible outcome of this speculation is to further stigmatise mental illness in the community.

We have no evidence of this persons mental health so no, it is not an appropriate thing to speculate about and has no place in this discussion of the issue.
 

joecanada

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,651
Canada
Tragic. Great news that she is okay.

Did he suffer from a mental illness?

I mean he obviously did as most of these if not all do
You don't just kill (attempted) others without being completely deficient in some way

Edit - obviously as the conversation has continued this is not equitable to schizophrenia or other mental illnesses but reference to sociopathic or psychopathic behaviour as well as possible narcissism or other diagnoses
 

karkii

Member
Oct 25, 2017
900
There's no way around speculation. Saying that he wasn't mentally ill is just as speculative as saying he wasn't. People are going to make the call they want to make based on their own knowledge, personal experiences and biases. That's literally all a discussion forum is.

This would require the two possibilities to be as likely. Which they are not.
 

Wackamole

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,959
How dare she shame his honor and the honor of his family? He was the Prince of the family!!!!
Tssshhh... women these days. Look what we've done. We've made them all independent and shit. And what good does that bring us, men?
Women mouthing back, disagreeing, doing whatever they want with their lives?!
Why not bring back forced marriage? I'm sure our supreme leader will agree. Emancipation was a mistake.

This guy isn't a cat person, i assume.

it's a fucking disgrace that this happened. I am VERY curious about this boy's parents and in what kind of society he grew up in.
I hope people will be able to slap some basic empathy into his backwards head.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,889
Finland
Great that she survived, still horrible thing to happen.
I've noticed this problem a lot in ERA. America's news network is like no other in the world. They cover and report fucking everything. If every country had the same level of news coverage, people would have a better idea of what goes on around the world. It's also a very normal thing in most European countries for the government to control what the media puts out and it's extremely effective. And in terms of reporting, the American police are arguably the most reported/recorded out there.

Many Americans seem to think that this level of news and reporting is the same everywhere so since they're not hearing about it, it isn't happening.
https://rsf.org/en/ranking
I'm sorry, but what the hell is this? Where in the world did you get this notion?

Sorry for being off topic but its such a weird sentiment that I had to post
It's nonsense.
 
May 9, 2018
30
It always amazes me how people scratch and claw to be able to avoid the obvious.

There's a desperation here to declare that it must be mental illness or some combinations of other factors. Anything to avoid admitting the obvious that we live in a society that places men's feelings above women's safety, that we still live in a misogynistic culture where women are still frequently perceived as simply the item/the prize at the end of a male conquest, a concept that is repeated and repeated in popular culture, even harmless videogames. It must be anything but this because if it's this, you'd actually have to pay attention when womem criticize your favorite game, or movie, you'd actually have to admit that these discussions matter. Better to grasp on to any other explanation, that way you don't have to deal with reality that male dominated culture breeds entitlement, better to grasp on mental illness because then it's not that men and boys can't take no for an answer it's that this girl had the misfortune of saying no to a mentally ill child, and it was just random and not systemic or symptomatic of a greater cultural misogyny problem. That the solution isn't the deconstruction of male dominated society but just simply a mental health issue, that it's not cultural or political but brain chemistry. That way folks can say don't be hyperbolic to women when speak they speak up about how saying no is scary because we never know how it's going to be taken, that way you can dismiss our safety concerns and prioritize your feelings.

Thank you!
 

Not

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,596
US
If you're not going to care about the lives of girls and women, at least think about how you're fucking destroying the minds of the boys you're raising
 

ElephantShell

10,000,000
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,936
Glad she came out of it okay, physically at least. Can't imagine how something like this would affect you mentally moving forward, especially at such a young age. What a fucked up situation.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
as long as people are aware that an isolated incident isn't sufficient evidence to definitively diagnose someone
We have been doing this song and dance since Sandy Hook. It is entirely obvious to me that people are not "aware" of this.

The only thing I can tell from watching the convo around school shootings/violence for the last few years is people don't know shit about anything and "mental illness" is the go-to crutch for commentary. Maybe this time will be different?? I'm not holding my breath.
Speculation about mental health are a normal part of the dialogue
And just because it's "normal" doesn't mean it's accurate or worthwhile. The back-and-forth around mental illness actually detracts from talking about more cogent issues.
 
Last edited:
Feb 3, 2018
1,130
Constantly bringing up mental illness in threads like this is very inappropriate.

If there's no specific link it's no different from asking 'are they left handed?' Or 'do they play a lot of video games?' 'Did they eat a well balanced breakfast this morning?'

Unless you have some specific evidence of a link it's not relevant to the topic so leave it out. You cannot diagnose people you've never met of mental illness over the internet so please stop trying

People who are sane usually don't walk around stabbing people and since this involved a girl not wanting to date him we can rule out robbery
 

Deleted member 41271

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 21, 2018
2,258
Lets not be hyperbolic here.

Realism isn't hyperbole. The poster you quoted is absolutely correct. Why do you think are parents teaching girls to be careful about rejecting men? Because yes, parents are. It's a neccessity for women.

At least she is okay but WTF. I am sure there has to be numerous factors that would drive this boy to do this and not just a simple rejection.

Sexism, misogyny, male entitlement, toxic masculinity. Good number of those, yeah.

I've noticed this problem a lot in ERA. America's news network is like no other in the world. They cover and report fucking everything. If every country had the same level of news coverage, people would have a better idea of what goes on around the world. It's also a very normal thing in most European countries for the government to control what the media puts out and it's extremely effective. And in terms of reporting, the American police are arguably the most reported/recorded out there.

This is absolute hogwash. The idea that the press is reporting more in the US is absolutely laughable, as is the idea that "in most European countries the government controls what the media puts out". The American police is among the most reported/recorded in the west, because it is also among the *worst* in the west.

Anything to deny the reality that our culture has problems, eh?

In fact, your media is a large contributor to the problem, such as when they report on mass shootings, and report that one of the victims was "the shooter's girlfriend" that "publically humiliated him", when in reality, she was not his girlfriend, had been harassed by him for months, and simply publically said no to him.
 

Deathman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
599
Poor thing, at least she's okay now.



Well it depends on whether he realised what he was wrong and learns that girls don't own him anything and if a girl reject him, just take the hit and move on. She was willing to be his friend and he's now lost that chance.

Plus the article didn't state if the kid had behavioral problems or the like.



14 years are still a child and still in the process of learning, he was most likely never taught how to handle rejection or how to respect women.

No, at 14 years old I knew that stabbing people was bad. Attempted murder for any reason isn't excusable, fuck his feelings of rejection
 

Aprikurt

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 29, 2017
18,796
We're raising entitled little boys that think they're owed something/anything/everything by women. Horrifying.
 

Deleted member 5127

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,584
Poor girl, I'm glad she survived it.

Why does this incel shit look like it's way more of a thing in America than any other western society?
 

illamap

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
466
We're raising entitled little boys that think they're owed something/anything/everything by women. Horrifying.

There are always mad men like this boy. I don't know why people think this is common occurrence based on few corner cases. Based on how many rejections average man gets, if Average man or boy would really be this aggressive, after rejection, girls and women would go extinct.
 

fierrotlepou

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,255
I think it's sad that we're never going to have a world without psychopaths like this. There will always be killings, senseless violence, shootings.

Makes me seriously reconsider having kids.
 

AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
User Banned (2 Days): Threadwhining. Previously warned for similar behaviour.
Oh look, it's another random piece of devastatingly bad news on Etcetera. That'll sure brighten our day :/
 

duckroll

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,279
Singapore
Mental illness can be a factor in anything, but rarely is it the driving factor. So I'm not sure why it would be helpful to speculate about that. Lets assume there is mental illness at work here, okay, but why did it manifest in this specific way? Let's discuss why a (possibly) mentally ill boy would specifically stab a girl who rejected his advances with the intent to kill. Why is that his reaction? It can't be rationally handwaved away as "mental illness" as an answer because there isn't some sort of mental illness that makes you do that specific act. It might make you more susceptible to thoughts you already have, or enhance your drive to do something you are already thinking about. It could introduce delusions to make you justify carrying out that act in your mind. But it is always an external factor that introduces those thoughts and guides that thought process to begin with. People are social creatures whose understanding of how to behave is largely defined by our environment and what we are exposed to in society.

This is a boy who responded to rejection with violence. You can be mentally ill and not ever make that conclusion if you were not first exposed to that reaction being a possibility.
 

Wackamole

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,959
Mental illness can be a factor in anything, but rarely is it the driving factor. So I'm not sure why it would be helpful to speculate about that. Lets assume there is mental illness at work here, okay, but why did it manifest in this specific way? Let's discuss why a (possibly) mentally ill boy would specifically stab a girl who rejected his advances with the intent to kill. Why is that his reaction? It can't be rationally handwaved away as "mental illness" as an answer because there isn't some sort of mental illness that makes you do that specific act. It might make you more susceptible to thoughts you already have, or enhance your drive to do something you are already thinking about. It could introduce delusions to make you justify carrying out that act in your mind. But it is always an external factor that introduces those thoughts and guides that thought process to begin with. People are social creatures whose understanding of how to behave is largely defined by our environment and what we are exposed to in society.

This is a boy who responded to rejection with violence. You can be mentally ill and not ever make that conclusion if you were not first exposed to that reaction being a possibility.
Good post
 

duckroll

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,279
Singapore
Exactly, women (or other men) don't owe you their affection.

No = no.
Maybe = no.
Not sure = no.
Silence = no.
Intoxication = no.

Only yes means yes.

And violence is not the answer, under any circumstance, to rejection.
And it's not even just affection (obviously being emotionally driven by desire can be a stronger trigger point) but in every area of how we live our lives. Entitlement is pretty bad. With most things that are wants rather than needs, we shouldn't feel owed anything.

Didn't get that promotion? Lame.
Rejected after an interview? Sucks.
Couldn't get tickets to a show you wanted? Bummer.
Your favorite drink is sold out at the vending machine? Doh!
A game you were looking forward to go delayed? Meh.
You just got trashed badly in a multiplayer game? Crap!

If our reaction to any of the above is to proceed to feel enraged, start putting blame on others, and using vile language or acting in a violent way - that is a good sign that it's time to take a step back and look how we're living. Being toxic is a very real thing, it's not something that just happens to others or to bad people or to psychos. It's sadly a part of society, expectations, and for some even upbringing. And it affects others around us.
 

D65

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,862
What does this have to do with the incel community... It's there even any indication?
 

Deleted member 2809

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,478
Glad she will live. Fuck him.

Also send that story to "b-but if guns were banned people would use knives" shitters.
 

Ramala

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,071
Santa Monica, LA
He's either mentally ill or his home life contributed significantly or both. Either way his parents are on the hook as much as the boy I feel. My gut feeling is he's just a spil
 

Nephtis

Banned
Dec 27, 2017
679
Super fucked up that happened. That kid will need a lot more than just therapy -- and it sucks that in all likelihood the parents will be sued and will be saddled up with that debt, while the kid will mostly go by without real punishment.

That kid should be made to pay for the victim's medical bills and any therapy associated with it when he turns 18 or at least at an age where he can legally work. I also wonder if this will remain on his record permanently or if it will be wiped once he is no longer underage.
 

Snack12367

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,191
Shit like this is why we need

a) more funding into mental health issues and de-stigmatising them;
b) we need to have more investment into things like Toxic Masculinity. Honestly, discussing with most people is bizarre. They recognise the impact to women, but refuse to acknowledge the impact on men.