Assassin's Creed Odyssey has an Alexios Problem [Loomer]

Hey Please · Jul 28, 2018

Laughing Banana said:
I mean, is it really constructive to berate Ubisoft for their past history in AAA space when they actually now have the guts to make their a mainline game of their biggest AAA series features women and gay relationships so prominently like in Odyssey?

Heck in Odyssey Aya is arguably a figure with way more importance than Bayek. And let's not forget about Eve. Ubisoft is moving towards the right direction, their efforts should be appreciated.

Then it is time that they re-evaluate how the games are being marketed so as not sideline the playable female characters.

Crossing Eden said:
We're talking about the same Ubisoft that just released a game set during the Hellenistic period of Egypt and made the main character, (and majority of characters) Nubian/Egyptian. The last game from this specific lead studio featured the first playable woman, (who not only was allowed to find a partner, but someone who was a POC as well, & was the center of the dlc being a rare example of a playable aged woman in video game), in a main line entry as well as the first bisexual male assassin, as well as their granddaughter on top of it's purposefully inclusive depiction of what was a very xenophobic and sexist time. When it comes to AC, I don't think Ubisoft, or to be more specific the people who work on these games, (see the narrative leads for Syndicate and Odyssey as an example), even remotely care about people who scream "SJW" let alone pandering to them.

We have come a long way from when one could white wash Egyptian protagonist and so I am not going give them a cookie for that. Also, if you are talking about Liberation as the series' first foray into providing players the ability to play as a non white woman then, again, whilst commendable, it was not launched on home consoles first where the aggregate of the AC games have been. Consequently, Liberation never get the same number of eye balls or install base at launch.

I think what really rubs me the wrong with Ubisoft is that they are one of the few studios, who in their vidocs, tend to outline the diversity in their workforce and yet it is either not properly reflected in game (which according to this thread has been changing for a while now) or in the promotional material. Being one of the major Canadian game development studios who tout said diversity, I expect more from them.

Zero-ELEC · Jul 28, 2018

NoKisum said:
Off topic, but can I get a link to this press kit?

Here

Crossing Eden said:
As an aside, Ubisoft recently released their e3 fankit, (which includes the marketing materials made for E3), I think the claim that they're excluding Kassandra from the marketing is really offbase upon examining it on top of the e3 stage presentation, I don't think the debut trailer purposefully excluding Kassandra for the sake of announcing that there was a choice between the two on stage or the fact that there are more figures of Alexios really discredits how much they've shown off Kassandra in the marketing.

Looking at that very same E3 kit, you can clearly see most of the press materials focus on Alexios, tho. How much they've shown of Kassandra is less than Alexios, is the point. By a noticeable margin.

Crossing Eden · Jul 28, 2018

i-Lo said:
We have come a long way from when one could white wash Egyptian protagonist and so I am not going give them a cookie for that.

Considering that we still live in the era where Hollywood freely has whitewashing in big films, yes, a studio that devoted that much effort into a diversified Egypt is noteworthy

Also, if you are talking about Liberation as the series' first foray into providing players the ability to play as a non white woman then, again, whilst commendable, it was not launched on home consoles first where the aggregate of the AC games have been. Consequently, Liberation never get the same number of eye balls or install base at launch.

I was talking about AC Syndicate. Did you play Liberation because it had none of what I just listed out.

I think what really rubs me the wrong with Ubisoft is that they are one of the few studios, who in their vidocs, tend to outline the diversity in their workforce and yet it is either not properly reflected in game (which according to this thread has been changing for a while now) or in the promotional material. Being one of the major Canadian game development studios who tout said diversity, I expect more from them.

But their push for diversity is absolutely in their games. I don't know how you could argue otherwise unless a character having more key art and posters apparently discredits the actual game. I don't even know how you could argue that they're not being progressive when even in marketing, they used Alexios as an example when talking about how you can romance any men or women regardless of the player characters gender.

Hey Please · Jul 28, 2018

Crossing Eden said:
Considering that we still live in the era where Hollywood freely has whitewashing in big films, yes, a studio that devoted that much effort into a diversified Egypt is noteworthy

Noteworthy- Yes. Expected- Yes. And gaming is not hollywood. At present the medium is in some ways more progressive and in other less so than hollywood.

I was talking about AC Syndicate. Did you play Liberation because it had none of what I just listed out.

Ah, I misread that portion of your original post.

But their push for diversity is absolutely in their games. I don't know how you could argue otherwise unless a character having more key art and posters apparently discredits the actual game. I don't even know how you could argue that they're not being progressive when even in marketing, they used Alexios as an example when talking about how you can romance any men or women regardless of the player characters gender.

Undoubtedly they are being progressive when it comes to their games but the way they are marketing them does disservice to the playable female characters. Let's take a look at the AC series on home consoles when it comes main playable characters:

1. AC 1 - Male, ~~white~~
2. AC 2- Male, white
3. AC Brotherhoold - Male, white
4. AC Revelation - Male, white
5. AC 3 - Male, Part English and part Native American
6. AC 4 - Male, white
7. AC Freedom cry (DLC) - Male, black
8. AC Rogue - Male, white
9. AC Liberation (Vita port) - Female, black
10. AC Syndicate - Male, white; Female, white; Boxart sidelined Evie
11. AC Chronicles - Female, east asian; Male, south asian/brown; Male, white
12. AC Origins - Male, north east african/brown, Female, north east african/brown; I had no idea that the player could actually play as Aya and she is not depicted on boxart (unless her being a playable character is meant to be some sort of secret)
13. AC Odyssey - Male, white OR Female, white; Promotional materials so far skew perception in favour of playable male option even though he is not canon.

So yes, I strongly believe that while Ubisoft is making strides in female (and other minorities) representation in the game, their marketing has been unsatisfactory at relaying that message.

Edit: Thanks to CrossingEden for the correction about Altair's ethnicity.

Kelira Telian · Jul 28, 2018

i-Lo said:
12. AC Origins - Male, north east african/brown, Female, north east african/brown; I had no idea that the player could actually play as Aya and she is not depicted on boxart (unless her being a playable character is meant to be some sort of secret)

She has brief playable sections, making up probably at best and being extremely generous here, 5% of the game.

Albeit part of that 5% is the actual final battle lmao.

Crossing Eden · Jul 28, 2018

i-Lo said:
Noteworthy- Yes. Expected- Yes. And gaming is not hollywood. At present the medium is in some ways more progressive and in other less so than hollywood.

I seriously disagree with that considering the last decade of shooter games with white protagonists being so high profile. :|

i-Lo said:
Undoubtedly they are being progressive when it comes to their games but the way they are marketing them does disservice to the playable female characters. Let's take a look at the AC series on home consoles when it comes main playable characters:

1. AC 1 - Male, white

Uh what, Altaïr Ibn-La'Ahad, is not white.

i-Lo said:
2. AC 2- Male, white
3. AC Brotherhoold - Male, white
4. AC Revelation - Male, white

Ezio is Italian which already sets him apart from a ton of other video game protagonists.

i-Lo said:
AC 3 - Male, Part English and part Native American

His Kanien'kehá:ka heritage clearly takes precedence.

i-Lo said:
AC 4 - Male, white

Again, like Ezio, Edward is an anamoly in the gaming sphere, he's Welsh. Which again is a very rare thing in video games, (this very short scene in the game about how racism is actually quite relevant here considering that you're listing out everyone as simple "white").

i-Lo said:
AC Freedom cry (DLC) - Male, black

Not "just" black, Trinidadian, again, very rare in video games.

i-Lo said:
AC Rogue - Male, white

An Irish man, if anything you'd find more trouble finding white American characters in this series now that I stop and think about it...

i-Lo said:
AC Liberation (Vita port) - Female, black

Half French, Half African, with her accent heavily influenced by the former due to her upbringing

i-Lo said:
AC Syndicate - Male, white; Female, white; Boxart sidelined Evie

Two British protagonists, Jacob is bisexual, Evie is allowed to have a romance with a POC no less

i-Lo said:
AC Chronicles - Female, east asian; Male, south asian/brown; Male, white

Russian. Again, this scene is incredibly relevant because you're just listing them as white. When we talk about the issue of white male protagonists being so prevalant in gaming, we're not just talking about their skin color, it's also down to the fact that they're very typically an average American.

i-Lo said:
AC Origins - Male, north east african/brown, Female, north east african/brown; I had no idea that the player could actually play as Aya and she is not depicted on boxart (unless her being a playable character is meant to be some sort of secret)

Aya being playable wasn't a secret as they announced it at gamescom last year. However, the majority of playtime is spent playing as Bayek. The majority of people in the game come from Egypt, with the final stretch taking place in the area of the map that is predominantly Roman/Greek. They do not shy away from talking about the character's dissatisfaction with Egypt losing it's identity as a result of the Romans.

i-Lo said:
AC Odyssey - Male, white OR Female, white; Promotional materials so far skew perception in favour of playable male option even though he is not canon.

Greek guy or woman. Again, the game itself will treat whichever character you pick as Canon, the novel is not the final say of canon in AC lore and never really has outside of outliers like the AC3 and AC:Unity novels which take place from the perspective of templars. And again, marketing materials aren't really skewed in either's favor, at least not on the e3 stage, you had the trailer with Alexios, then switching between the two after the big reveal that you could make a choice for the first time, then you had a demo with Kassandra.

You cannot argue that they only play lip service to diversity of this series unless you think we should only care about skin color and not the actual cultures we visit which have been incredibly varied.

Zero-ELEC · Jul 29, 2018

Crossing Eden said:
Greek guy or woman. Again, the game itself will treat whichever character you pick as Canon, the novel is not the final say of canon in AC lore and never really has outside of outliers like the AC3 and AC:Unity novels which take place from the perspective of templars. And again, marketing materials aren't really skewed in either's favor, at least not on the e3 stage, you had the trailer with Alexios, then switching between the two after the big reveal that you could make a choice for the first time, then you had a demo with Kassandra.

Hey, most novels are super canon tho? The early Oliver Bowden books were kinda iffy in certain details, but they're most certainly canon. This one isn't even an Oliver Bowden book.

Also, again, it'd be disingenuous to imply that Alexios and Kassandra share the marketing equally. Key art is almost exclusively featuring Alexios, as exemplified by the E3 fan kit you talked about a couple of posts ago.

Not to say Ubisoft/Assassin's Creed doesn't deserve the credit for having a wide range of ethnicities/nationalities/origins for their protagonists, but it's still kinda telling that out of 19 full fledged game instalments only 2 feature a woman as the sole protagonist, and 4 feature a playable woman in some capacity.

Speaking of...

i-Lo said:
11. AC Chronicles - Female, east asian; Male, south asian/brown; Male, white

Crossing Eden said:
Russian. Again, this scene is incredibly relevant because you're just listing them as white. When we talk about the issue of white male protagonists being so prevalant in gaming, we're not just talking about their skin color, it's also down to the fact that they're very typically an average American.

Assassin's Creed Chronicles: Russia features two playable characters with interchanging chapters, Nikolai Orelov and Anastasia Romanova.

Azure Wanderer · Jul 29, 2018

You know what, I'd stop arguing with someone who clearly hasn't played the games and is probably judging characters from their Wikipedia entry.

GamerDude · Jul 29, 2018

Crossing Eden said:
I seriously disagree with that considering the last decade of shooter games with white protagonists being so high profile. :|

Uh what, Altaïr Ibn-La'Ahad, is not white.

Ezio is Italian which already sets him apart from a ton of other video game protagonists.

His Kanien'kehá:ka heritage clearly takes precedence.

Again, like Ezio, Edward is an anamoly in the gaming sphere, he's Welsh. Which again is a very rare thing in video games, (this very short scene in the game about how racism is actually quite relevant here considering that you're listing out everyone as simple "white").

Not "just" black, Trinidadian, again, very rare in video games.

An Irish man, if anything you'd find more trouble finding white American characters in this series now that I stop and think about it...

Half French, Half African, with her accent heavily influenced by the former due to her upbringing

Two British protagonists, Jacob is bisexual, Evie is allowed to have a romance with a POC no less

Russian. Again, this scene is incredibly relevant because you're just listing them as white. When we talk about the issue of white male protagonists being so prevalant in gaming, we're not just talking about their skin color, it's also down to the fact that they're very typically an average American.

Aya being playable wasn't a secret as they announced it at gamescom last year. However, the majority of playtime is spent playing as Bayek. The majority of people in the game come from Egypt, with the final stretch taking place in the area of the map that is predominantly Roman/Greek. They do not shy away from talking about the character's dissatisfaction with Egypt losing it's identity as a result of the Romans.

Greek guy or woman. Again, the game itself will treat whichever character you pick as Canon, the novel is not the final say of canon in AC lore and never really has outside of outliers like the AC3 and AC:Unity novels which take place from the perspective of templars. And again, marketing materials aren't really skewed in either's favor, at least not on the e3 stage, you had the trailer with Alexios, then switching between the two after the big reveal that you could make a choice for the first time, then you had a demo with Kassandra.

You cannot argue that they only play lip service to diversity of this series unless you think we should only care about skin color and not the actual cultures we visit which have been incredibly varied.

Excellent post. Wonderful rebuttal of the other poster's ignorant and highly inaccurate characterizations. And that's quite ironic from him considering the pro-diversity and inclusive stance he was attempting to take.

Dizagaox · Jul 29, 2018

WrenchNinja said:
Alexios' existence feels like a bone being thrown to people who would refuse to play as a woman.

That is exactly what he is, and unfortunately, he'll be picked over Kassandra by the majority of the audience. Heck, even I'm undecided. I'll pick my gender once I see more cutscenes and base it on the acting and gender-specific stuff.

Crossing Eden · Jul 29, 2018

Zero-ELEC said:
Hey, most novels are super canon tho? The early Oliver Bowden books were kinda iffy in certain details, but they're most certainly canon. This one isn't even an Oliver Bowden book.

The games are the main canon, everything else is secondary when retelling the same events, the novels that take place from the perspective of other characters are super canon. You remember that the novels don't even mention the modern day portion of the games.

Also, again, it'd be disingenuous to imply that Alexios and Kassandra share the marketing equally. Key art is almost exclusively featuring Alexios, as exemplified by the E3 fan kit you talked about a couple of posts ago.

Out of five pieces of key art, only 3 feature Alexios exclusively, and again, we're talking the e3 key art that was made for the stage. Again I don't think key art or collectibles take precedence over footage of the game or the stage presentation. Think people jumped the gun with this one.

Zero-ELEC said:
Not to say Ubisoft/Assassin's Creed doesn't deserve the credit for having a wide range of ethnicities/nationalities/origins for their protagonists, but it's still kinda telling that out of 19 full fledged game instalments only 2 feature a woman as the sole protagonist, and 4 feature a playable woman in some capacity.

Yes it is telling, I am in noway shape or form saying that AC games are perfect when it comes to representation, especially women when you consider that the removal of the prostitute mechanic was very recent as well as the tendency to fridge women characters. Just that as an example, the positives outweigh the negatives, (examples of negatives would be Unity's cast having british accents despite them all being able to speak French, or Altair's jarring American accent in AC1).Yes they could do better, but E3 isn't the only conference where the game is being advertised. This is a conversation that'll definitely be worth revisiting once gamescom comes around.

Zero-ELEC said:
Assassin's Creed Chronicles: Russia features two playable characters with interchanging chapters, Nikolai Orelov and Anastasia Romanova.

Thank you for correcting me as I completely forgot about those sections of the game.

Dizagaox · Jul 29, 2018

It seems ResetEra forum members like to conveniently forget Assassin's Creed has been a champion for racial diversity and controversial settings, when it serves their agenda, in this case trying to pretend AC isn't diverse.

Personally opinion, I'd rather they had a female protagonist used with more conviction, in a narrative and setting that is designed around her. There's a world of difference between Kassandra and, say, Aloy or Lara Croft.

Dizagaox · Jul 29, 2018

Zero-ELEC said:
it's still kinda telling that out of 19 full fledged game instalments only 2 feature a woman as the sole protagonist, and 4 feature a playable woman in some capacity.

Has this been something a sizable number of people have asked for?

Zero-ELEC · Jul 29, 2018

Dizagaox said:
Personally opinion, I'd rather they had a female protagonist used with more conviction, in a narrative and setting that is designed around her. There's a world of difference between Kassandra and, say, Aloy or Lara Croft.

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what's being advocated for in the video.

Dizagaox said:
Has this been something a sizable number of people have asked for?

I can't speak for anyone but me, but I've been asking for a female protagonist since Revelations.

Azure Wanderer · Jul 29, 2018

Dizagaox said:
It seems ResetEra forum members like to conveniently forget Assassin's Creed has been a champion for racial diversity and controversial settings, when it serves their agenda, in this case trying to pretend AC isn't diverse.

Personally opinion, I'd rather they had a female protagonist used with more conviction, in a narrative and setting that is designed around her. There's a world of difference between Kassandra and, say, Aloy or Lara Croft.

Exactly. It's objectively the most diverse series and, sadly by far.

Crossing Eden · Jul 29, 2018

VanCityGamer said:
Excellent post. Wonderful rebuttal of the other poster's ignorant and highly inaccurate characterizations. And that's quite ironic from him considering the pro-diversity and inclusive stance he was attempting to take.

Part of the reason i'm adamant about pointing it is because it really matters to people who share that culture. I've even seen members from Era surprised that Alexios and Kassandra actually speak Greek.

Dizagaox · Jul 29, 2018

Zero-ELEC said:
I'm pretty sure that's exactly what's being advocated for in the video.

What he's after is outside the scope of this game, but they'll use this game's successes and failures to determine the next one's protagonist(s) definitely.

Azure Wanderer · Jul 29, 2018

Dizagaox said:
What he's after is outside the scope of this game, but they'll use this game's successes and failures to determine the next one's protagonist(s) definitely.

You know, I'm convinced that Origins really, really, really tried to plant the seeds for an Aya starred game set in Rome.

Crossing Eden · Jul 29, 2018

Azure Wanderer said:
You know, I'm convinced that Origins really, really, really tried to plant the seeds for an Aya starred game set in Rome.

They finished that storyline via comic book.

Would've been a really cool dlc for the game.

Azure Wanderer · Jul 29, 2018

Crossing Eden said:
They finished that storyline via comic book.

Would've been a really cool dlc for the game.

I mean, technically they finished that storyline back in AC2. Still wouldn't surprise me, even as you said a DLC.

Still, she told Bayek to visit her in Rome and he said he was going to, that's the untold story. They got buried together after all.

But I'm not holding my breath, Ubisoft loves to let stories end incomplete.

M. Wallace · Jul 29, 2018

Well, what a waste of fucking time.

Zero-ELEC · Jul 29, 2018

Azure Wanderer said:
I mean, technically they finished that storyline back in AC2. Still wouldn't surprise me, even as you said a DLC.

Still, she told Bayek to visit her in Rome and he said he was going to, that's the untold story. They got buried together after all.

But I'm not holding my breath, Ubisoft loves to let stories end incomplete.

I'm sure there will be a comic book in 3 or 4 years telling of Bayek and Aya's meeting again and what led to them being buried together.

Crossing Eden · Jul 29, 2018

Azure Wanderer said:
I mean, technically they finished that storyline back in AC2. Still wouldn't surprise me, even as you said a DLC.

Still, she told Bayek to visit her in Rome and he said he was going to, that's the untold story. They got buried together after all.

But I'm not holding my breath, Ubisoft loves to let stories end incomplete.

I mean, with a story like AC unless a character gets really old you can't really do a "and then they lived happily ever after." :(

Jimrpg · Jul 29, 2018

This really has been blown out of proportion.

What AC really is that each game is a new location in its own right, and effectively its own game. I don't think 90% of players will care that there's a character choice or not. In fact its great that there is. Why don't they just have more characters to choose from as DLC, this would definitely add to the replay value for some people.

Bung Hole · Jul 29, 2018

Is it not enough to just enjoy video games. Male lead female lead black blue orange who gives a fuck?

Pagoto93 · Jul 29, 2018

On the topic of diversity, it's too much of an oversimplification to say we'll be playing as a "white male". As a Greek, I really don't feel like my ethnicity is represented by playing as Joel or Trevor.

Ubisoft could have easily gone the 300 route and portrayed the Ancient Greeks as North Europeans. For once, I'm looking forward to playing as a character who talks and looks like me. That sounds like diversity working to me.

Cellsplitter · Jul 29, 2018

It seems that most of the people replying to this thread didn't even watch the video.
The problem with Alexios is the fact that he's non-canon and the reason they give for letting you pick him as a character breaks the AC lore.
Now I'd agree that the reason they keep pushing Alexios in their marketing is most likely due to the fact that they're scared they'd lose out on sales if they didn't show that you can play as a big "white" dude. It's sad.

Deleted member 8861 · Jul 29, 2018

BoukObelisk said:
Sorry, I disagree. Set protagonists matter and the fact that Ubisoft keep marketing the game for public awareness with the dude tells you all you need to know about their confidence in having a female main lead

They had the female protagonist on the E3 demo. I don't understand the allegations that Kassandra is being sidelined, here.

And while I understand the disparity between AC protagonists' genders and how a set female protagonist would be more progressive, I wouldn't agree that offering multiple options is a bad or regressive thing as I feel is being implied here (in terms of progressivism). Not my place to talk though so /shrug

Crossing Eden · Jul 29, 2018

Bung Hole said:
Is it not enough to just enjoy video games. Male lead female lead black blue orange who gives a fuck?

As I said above, representation matters. For example, Watch Dogs 2, Mafia 3, and AC:Freedom Cry would be a fundamentally different experience if the main characters were white. Hell, the fact that AC games have never featured an average white american as the main protagonist is part of what makes the franchise unique.

Mr.Branding · Jul 29, 2018

While we're still on the subject, is Liberation on the Vita a competent GAME? I heard bad things but since I'm a fan since the first game, an Ac portable game is intriguing to me.

Morrigan · Jul 29, 2018

Kelira Telian said:
I feel like there are two separate, similar but not directly connected issues here that are being conflated. Mostly innocently but a few people are doing it rather maliciously.

Issue the First: In the 18 games of the Assassin's Creed series there has been precisely one (1) with an exclusively female protagonist. The problem with this should be obvious, but in case it isn't, lets go over it briefly. By and large most protagonists, in everything, are male. This is a problem because men only make up 50% of the population. By not having female protagonists, it reinforces the idea that male is the "default". Now this is a widespread issue across media and culture, but that doesn't mean Ubisoft can't be called out on contributing to it.

Issue the Second: In the AC games with two protagonists or selectable protagonists (all two of them) the male protagonist gets the lionshare of the marketing and is considered to be the "default". Now, Odyssey allowing you to choose between a male and female character is great! As is the fact that romance options are not restricted by your chosen gender. More games should do this. That being said, the marketing is overwhelmingly focused on Alexios, when it should be an even split. This is a problem, because they clearly feel that if they advertise the female protagonist more heavily they'll lose sales.

Now, you may say, "Then they are right to advertise Alexios more!" and in response I say, "I don't give a flying fuck if Ubisoft makes 5% less profit on this game." If some misogynistic dickbags don't buy the game because Kassandra got the same amount of press-time as Alexios, good riddance. Their feelings aren't my problem and they shouldn't be Ubisoft's problem either.

So these two issues are related in that they both are the result of sexism, but you can't use "well you can choose to be a girl!" as a defense because thats not the argument primarily being made here.

In addition, there should be more games, period, where you play as a girl. With no options to play as a boy. In fact, if every game made for the next five years exclusively had female protagonists it would not even begin to outweigh the sheer history of decades of games with exclusively male protagonists.

Also, using the fact that you can have a gay male romance as a defense is missing the point because a lot of people trotting that out would fly into a rage if a game with an exclusively male protagonist only had gay male romance options. But yes, it is excellent that that is the choice and gay male (and lesbian!) gamers are even more under-represented than straight female ones. Though all three groups are still hilariously, enormously, almost comically outweighed by the amount of representation, weight and general coddling given to straight males. So trying to turn those groups on each other is particularly scummy.

So in conclusion, the next AC game after this should have exclusively a female protagonist, and the one after that should have a male protagonist with only gay romance options. That should satisfy everyone, no?

Fantastic post.

Vicious17 said:
So then, are you asking for a game with ONLY a female MC? Maybe I'm wrong here, but that doesn't sound like "diversity" to me.

Also, I never said they had no trouble commiting to Bayek as the main protogonist. In fact, Aya plays a bigger role than Bayek ever did.

"Diversity" in this context doesn't mean a plethora of character types to choose from in a single game. Forcing a female-centric point of view to a story, telling a woman's own story through a woman's eyes, doesn't happen often enough in AAA space, and has only happened once in AC, and it was the handheld spin-off. So having an AC game with an exclusive female protagonist would, indeed, contribute to the diversity of stories in AC. No one is saying that it's bad that you can choose, only that it's slightly disappointing that Ubisoft still won't let a woman carry a full mainline AC game.

As for Aya playing a bigger role than Bayek, well, why couldn't she be the main protagonist and Bayek be the sidekick, then? Hmmm...

Vicious17 said:
Claiming they're not at the very least TRYING to be progressive is fucking insane.

Good thing no one has made that claim. You should address arguments people actually make if you want to engage in discussion.

Charamiwa · Jul 29, 2018

The dude in the promotional pictures is barely a character, it's just a stereotypical Hoplite meant to quickly evoke the region and time frame of the game in the eyes of the consumer. You don't see his face, never get a sense of his character... It's just marketing. It's not about hiding the woman protagonist, it's about finding the most generic looking warrior to ease people into the concept.

Lowrys · Jul 29, 2018

I agree that it would be better if the marketing reflected the novel's canon, which is Kassandra.

However, I also feel like Assassin's Creed, though not perfect in this respect, is one the best AAA series/games in terms of diversity and inclusion.

Could they do better? Yes. But most other AAA games are doing far, far worse.

TheRaidenPT · Jul 29, 2018

I don't really understand why they didn't simply made Kassandra only.

I loved playing Horizon Zero Dawn with Alloy

jem · Jul 29, 2018

Man, that seems like a ridiculous argument to me.

You don't need a lore reason for why both characters could work. Simply when the player selects a character they also select which version of history they want to play.

It seems like the OP is arguing against the very concept of player choice which seems bizarre to me. The beauty of games is the fact that you can directly influence the story in which you are partaking.

The only argument they made which I feel is reasonable is if future games reference back to this one. However, that is an incredibly minor issue which the player can very easily reconcile.

Hey Please · Jul 29, 2018

Crossing Eden said:
I seriously disagree with that considering the last decade of shooter games with white protagonists being so high profile. :|

Feel free to do so but I have yet to see a native american superhero on big screen or a female lead in a post apocalyptic world or a female lead in zombie infested world or a female action hero who was not based off of games like Tomb Raider or RE, etc.

Uh what, Altaïr Ibn-La'Ahad, is not white.

I stand corrected. Thanks.

Ezio is Italian which already sets him apart from a ton of other video game protagonists.

Unique in so far as country? Yes. However, an Italian is still considered white.

His Kanien'kehá:ka heritage clearly takes precedence.

I will not disagree but that does not simply diminish his origin.

Again, like Ezio, Edward is an anamoly in the gaming sphere, he's Welsh. Which again is a very rare thing in video games, (this very short scene in the game about how racism is actually quite relevant here considering that you're listing out everyone as simple "white").

Same argument as Ezio. If a Welshman was sympathetic to Nazi ideologies, people would still call him a white supremacist.

Not "just" black, Trinidadian, again, very rare in video games.

Again, unique but in the greater scheme of things, a story of a black man who was formerly a slave.

An Irish man, if anything you'd find more trouble finding white American characters in this series now that I stop and think about it...

Same argument as Edward Kenway. And again, I am not denying the uniqueness.

Half French, Half African, with her accent heavily influenced by the former due to her upbringing

Finally a woman.

Two British protagonists, Jacob is bisexual, Evie is allowed to have a romance with a POC no less

Yet again, while they are both done well in the game (actually, most people prefer Evie), the marketing campaign like trailers and boxart clearly sidelined Evie. Arguing against that is absolutely disingenuous.

Russian. Again, this scene is incredibly relevant because you're just listing them as white. When we talk about the issue of white male protagonists being so prevalant in gaming, we're not just talking about their skin color, it's also down to the fact that they're very typically an average American.

Ethnically different but still in the greater scheme of things, white. A Russian skinhead IRL terrorizing minority groups is still seen as a white supremacist and racist.

Greek guy or woman. Again, the game itself will treat whichever character you pick as Canon, the novel is not the final say of canon in AC lore and never really has outside of outliers like the AC3 and AC:Unity novels which take place from the perspective of templars. And again, marketing materials aren't really skewed in either's favor, at least not on the e3 stage, you had the trailer with Alexios, then switching between the two after the big reveal that you could make a choice for the first time, then you had a demo with Kassandra.

Greeks are still considered white. As far as marketing the game thus far, it has absolutely been skewed in favour of Alexios. The world premier E3 trailer featured Alexios, the official "Fan Kit" mostly features him and out of 4 pre order versions that features statues only 1 feature Kassandra. This continued to narrative that Ubisoft has treated both characters is equity in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary reeks of servile fandom.

You cannot argue that they only play lip service to diversity of this series unless you think we should only care about skin color and not the actual cultures we visit which have been incredibly varied.

I am NOT arguing against their games featuring diversity especially when it comes to male protagonists. I will reiterate- They need to re-evaluate how female protagonists are being represented when it comes to marketing. The marketing campaigns thus far are being designed to fall in line with the status quo of being male-centric to attract male audience over the airways. It shows a continued reliance on focus groups who feel it is risky to challenge the norms on the surface. This shows lack of spine and respect for the hard working devs and for the female protagonists they designed that the players are supposed to inhabit and empathize with.

Deleted member 9971 · Jul 29, 2018

Tbh i aint even interested in this game and i am a huge ac fan. Ill probs pick it up in a sale later down the road next summer or later still have to play and finish origins even.

Crossing Eden · Jul 29, 2018

i-Lo said:
Unique in so far as country? Yes. However, an Italian is still considered white.

Ezio isn't even an Italian with a pale skin complex. Like it not, Italian culture is incredibly underrepresented in the medium.

i-Lo said:
I will not disagree but that does not simply diminish his origin.

Yes, his origin is that he's not fully a Native American, but for all intents and purposes, he basically is, he's treated as such by others.

i-Lo said:
Same argument as Ezio. If a Welshman was sympathetic to Nazi ideologies, people would still call him a white supremacist.

But we're not talking about a 21st century white supremacist. We're specifically talking about a Welsh pirate born and raised in Wales. That actually matters to people.

i-Lo said:
Again, unique but in the greater scheme of things, a story of a black man who was formerly a slave.

His Trinidadian heritage is a part of the plot, AC4 makes it an explicit point that regardless of skin color, not every black man is the same, which is an incredibly valid point to make as there are many different cultures out there.

i-Lo said:
Same argument as Edward Kenway. And again, I am not denying the uniqueness.

You pretty much are as you're trying to downplay it by focusing specifically on skin color.

i-Lo said:
Finally a woman.

Maybe stop trying to simplify things.

i-Lo said:
Yet again, while they are both done well in the game (actually, most people prefer Evie), the marketing campaign like trailers and boxart clearly sidelined Evie. Arguing against that is absolutely disingenuous.

Which again, doesn't discredit the content of the actual game.

i-Lo said:
Ethnically different but still in the greater scheme of things, white.

In the greater scheme of things the culture of an AC protagonist is incredibly pertinent to their character in every installment, the culture of the setting itself is incredibly prominent as the characters choose to follow and/or ignore specific customs and beliefs of the time. You can't separate the ethnicity of an AC protagonist and just refer to them with their skin color. Period.

i-Lo said:
Greeks are still considered white.

We literally have people ITT talking about how they relate to the characters more because they wear the Greek heritage on their sleeve. With AC, ethnicity and place of birth isn't just a bullet point, it's intrinsic to the characters themselves. Alexios and Kassandra aren't just Greek, they speak it, their actors are greek, they follow Greek customs, etc.

i-Lo said:
I am NOT arguing against their games featuring diversity especially when it comes to male protagonists. I will reiterate- They need to re-evaluate how female protagonists are being represented when it comes to marketing. The marketing campaigns thus far are being designed to fall in line with the status quo of being male-centric to attract male audience over the airways. It shows a continued reliance on focus groups who feel it is risky to challenge the norms on the surface. This shows lack of spine and respect for the hard working devs and for the female protagonists they designed that the players are supposed to inhabit and empathize with.

Again, completely jumping the gun on this, as we have several months of marketing materials left. The e3 stage presentation was the most prominent showing of the game, (besides the hours upon hours of let's play footage where people could choose whichever character they wanted), and on stage, it wasn't skewed aside from Kassandra being the center of the main demo.

Kelira Telian · Jul 29, 2018

Dizagaox said:
It seems ResetEra forum members like to conveniently forget Assassin's Creed has been a champion for racial diversity and controversial settings, when it serves their agenda, in this case trying to pretend AC isn't diverse.

Really enjoying people just straight up ignoring the posts where I address this point and explain why its bullshit

Hey Please · Jul 29, 2018

Crossing Eden said:
Which again, doesn't discredit the content of the actual game.

Perhaps some women (Morrigan ) on the forum can weigh in on this because to me it abso-fucking-lutely does. This is utter nonsense. It was a matter of equity and when it came to marketing the product, which is the first point of contact for many potential buyers, it was sorely lacking. If the gameplay is going to feature a playable female protagonist as prominently as their male counterpart, it behooves the publishers to acknowledge that in marketing.

Again, completely jumping the gun on this, as we have several months of marketing materials left. The e3 stage presentation was the most prominent showing of the game, (besides the hours upon hours of let's play footage where people could choose whichever character they wanted), and on stage, it wasn't skewed aside from Kassandra being the center of the main demo.

That is why I have kept saying "thus far" for those paying attention. I really hope Kassandra is featured more prominently in the coming months. And it is sort of ludicrous comparing a single stage demo (the long and short version of the same) to multiple trailers, marketing kits and pre order bonuses clearly favouring the non canon character.

I have same issue with games like Mass Effect (OG trilogy featured one trailer for ME3 feature fem Shep.... one) and Elders Scrolls (iirc). Either make the marketing gender agnostic or make sure that the marketing accurately represents the playable characters (if characters are the focus of the trailer).

Mizeris Lutz Ether Lanai · Jul 29, 2018

i-Lo said:
We have come a long way from when one could white wash Egyptian protagonist and so I am not going give them a cookie for that.

We've come a long way from 2016?

Hey Please · Jul 29, 2018

Mizeris Lutz Ether Lanai said:
We've come a long way from 2016?

Presumably that's Gods of Egypt, aka whatatravesty! (the picture won't load for me atm). Yea, that was a wtf moment for quite a lot of people. But I do mention that gaming is in ways more progressive and in other ways less so than hollywood.

moose84 · Jul 29, 2018

Only in 2017/2018 could a game exist that lets you pick a male or female character... and still have people complain about it.

Kelira Telian · Jul 29, 2018

moose84 said:
Only in 2017/2018 could a game exist that lets you pick a male or female character... and still have people complain about it.

Wow, maybe there are five entire pages full of discussion about this you could read instead of doing driveby posting, patting yourself on the back about how above it all you are.

Mizeris Lutz Ether Lanai · Jul 29, 2018

i-Lo said:
Presumably that's Gods of Egypt, aka whatatravesty! (the picture won't load for me atm). Yea, that was a wtf moment for quite a lot of people. But I do mention that gaming is in ways more progressive and in other ways less so than hollywood.

Yeah, Gods of Egypt.

Origins has Greeks & Romans all over it due to the time period. Even without whitewashing, it would have been the easiest thing in the world to write a mighty whitey trope filled story about a Roman centurion's initiation into the exotic mysteries of Egypt, which he soon masters and uses to fight against corruption in Rome.

They might have even left money on the table by not doing so.

CopperPuppy · Jul 29, 2018

i-Lo said:
Noteworthy- Yes. Expected- Yes. And gaming is not hollywood. At present the medium is in some ways more progressive and in other less so than hollywood.

Ah, I misread that portion of your original post.

Undoubtedly they are being progressive when it comes to their games but the way they are marketing them does disservice to the playable female characters. Let's take a look at the AC series on home consoles when it comes main playable characters:

1. AC 1 - Male, white
2. AC 2- Male, white
3. AC Brotherhoold - Male, white
4. AC Revelation - Male, white
5. AC 3 - Male, Part English and part Native American
6. AC 4 - Male, white
7. AC Freedom cry (DLC) - Male, black
8. AC Rogue - Male, white
9. AC Liberation (Vita port) - Female, black
10. AC Syndicate - Male, white; Female, white; Boxart sidelined Evie
11. AC Chronicles - Female, east asian; Male, south asian/brown; Male, white
12. AC Origins - Male, north east african/brown, Female, north east african/brown; I had no idea that the player could actually play as Aya and she is not depicted on boxart (unless her being a playable character is meant to be some sort of secret)
13. AC Odyssey - Male, white OR Female, white; Promotional materials so far skew perception in favour of playable male option even though he is not canon.

So yes, I strongly believe that while Ubisoft is making strides in female (and other minorities) representation in the game, their marketing has been unsatisfactory at relaying that message.

TIL Altair is white

Uh????

Prototype Viktor · Jul 29, 2018

BoukObelisk said:
Sorry, I disagree. Set protagonists matter and the fact that Ubisoft keep marketing the game for public awareness with the dude tells you all you need to know about their confidence in having a female main lead

https://feministfrequency.com/2018/06/14/gender-breakdown-of-games-featured-at-e3-2018/

i thought them having a woman lead in a PSP game
then when they did split protag the woman was in less than half the story (if i'm not mistaken i barely remember much of that game when people talked about it)
says about their confidence in having a full time woman lead

Hey Please · Jul 29, 2018

CopperPuppy said:
TIL Altair is white

Uh????

I was mistaken and the post has been updated to reflect that.

CopperPuppy · Jul 29, 2018

i-Lo said:
I was mistaken and the post has been updated to reflect that.

You were so reductive in an attempt to make your point that you yourself are generalizing cultures and ethnicities in the process

It's like you don't even see the irony

Hey Please · Jul 29, 2018

CopperPuppy said:
You were so reductive in an attempt to make your point that you yourself are generalizing cultures and ethnicities in the process

It's like you don't even see the irony

Yes, it was reductive. And I do regret that because it does come off as discounting other differing cultures just because they are "white". I really got side tracked there.

However, the crux of the matter was about equitable representation of playable female protagonist in regards to marketing which still stands.

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