Xenogears 2 Didn’t Happen Because of FF: Spirits Within – Monolith Soft President Sugiura [Update: Xenosaga art not drawn by Soraya Saga]

Kaim · May 28, 2020

Takahashi: But looking back, you made the FF movie and then the online game was developed. I think they left a really significant legacy. I genuinely think that the know-how developed back then has left its mark on the culture and opened up new paths for us all.

Sakaguchi: But when I worked on it, I realised that games were games. They just aren't films... (laughs)

It seems that Takahashi dosen't bear any resentment with the film, on the contrary.

Tayaya · May 28, 2020

Vault said:
that film finished Sakaguchi and gave us the Wada era

I read that as the Wakka era.

I didn't hate the Spirits within. For its time the CG was incredible, and the movie did tell a decent story that was less convoluted than some of the more recent FF games (looking at you, FF XV). I like it on a couple of levels.

But... I love Xenogears way more! I'll even defend disc 2 as not being a budget cut and an actual artistic choice! So yeah... Fuck Spirits Within!

Hailinel · May 28, 2020

Joseki said:
Funny considering Xenogears is poor's man Neon Genesis Evangelion.

We only gained with Xenoblade. I'm sorry folks, someone had to say it.

The scourge of selective convenience.

Ridley327 · May 28, 2020

Alpha Baymax said:
Monolith Soft didn't have the clout of Xenoblade Chronicles back then. Times are different now, Square Enix can ride the success of the Xeno brand without having to face legal repercussions. And unlike Bandai Namco who developed Xenosaga directly with Monolith Soft, Square Enix can reintroduce Xenogears as a multi-platform title as it was developed before the incorporation of Monolith Soft.

If the exposure Xenosaga got in Xenoblade 2 wasn't enough for Bamco to greenlight an HD collection for the trilogy, what hope does Xenogears have then? Folks that love Xenoblade are likely looking for more Xenoblade.

NSESN · May 28, 2020

Morrigan said:
It's funny how people give me snark for actually giving it a fair shot though.

To be fair you were the one being snarky first
also

Morrigan said:
I love the deliberate obtuseness concerning anime in this thread. Like y'all don't know what everyone means by "anime", or that we can keep pretending that there isn't a massive difference between the anime style/tropes of Xenogears and what we have in Xenoblade games.

Please. It's like when someone disparages Fairy Tail as being "too anime" and the reply being "Well you like anime too, you're a Ghibli fan. CHECKMATE".

Please Xenogears is as anime as Blade is, probably even more. It is just 90s anime instead

Qwark · May 28, 2020

I was just thinking about this. Square had so many interesting projects on PS1 and they just vanished as they went into PS2 and I was wondering what could have happened, and then I remembered that's about the time the movie came out.

I miss old Square :(

Wireframe · May 28, 2020

Spirits within might be one of the worst things of all time if it not only forced the Enix merger but also prevented a sequel to xenogears.

delete12345 · May 28, 2020

Kadin said:
Did it really lose 94M or was it more like how many films don't show a profit which is why so many actors take a % or gross instead? Something about how the accounting is done iirc...

It's well documented the world's first photorealistic CGI movie bombed and panned by movie critics.

My take is, because the movie is also very niche (video game universe) at the time, not a lot of movie goers are into sci-fi fantasy, especially when most of the context of the movie are from the FF universe.

Brewster123 · May 28, 2020

Bard said:
Jesus the vitriol towards Xenoblade in this thread. For fuck's sake this entire week has been so goddamn infuriating with this shit in multiple threads.

Xenogears, Xenosaga, Xenoblade they're all fucking great. Stop tearing the other one down with all this bullshit.

It fucking sucks that Xenogears 2 didn't happen and I wish SE would make that or remake 1.

Yeah the Xeno fanbase is basically just the Fire Emblem fanbase before Three Houses (Not that Three Houses fixed everything mind you). Lots of infighting and older-game elitism. Speaking of infighting, I have to ask all of the people making the anime jokes where has anyone seriously said that in this thread? I've seen like 4 posters make "anime bad" jokes, but I can't say I've seen anyone here say XC1 is bad because anime. I've seen it happen in other threads, but I have yet to see it here, and I especially have yet to see it be used to defend Xenogears of all things. In other threads (espicially XC2 threads) I'd agree with you guys, but I think you're chasing ghosts here.

NattyBo · May 28, 2020

My one and only hope is that the more Xenogears still gets talked about and kept alive in the collective gamer conciousness long enough that we get a remake and then real sequels.
And I like XS and XBC - hell, I'm taking tomorrow off to play XBCDE! But I want the Xenogears saga. Nothing else will ever compare, for me.

Duonala · May 28, 2020

And they did make it. It's Xenosaga, and that's what they didn't manage to fully make.

Arthoneceron · May 28, 2020

I wonder if the next Chrono was also affected by the movie. It makes sense if we put it "chronologically".

DiipuSurotu · May 28, 2020

Final Fantasy IX was developed in the Hawaii office with a lot of the same people that worked on The Spirits Within.

No FF movie would have meant no FFIX as we know it, too.

Encephalon · May 28, 2020

Vault said:
Xenogears came out in 1998 and spirits within came out in 2001.

If they were gonna do a sequel it would of already happend before then.

We got two FF sequels and a Saga Frontier sequel in that time.

Saga Frontier 2 is also probably unfinished. Maybe more than Xenogears.

VIII clearly needed more time for balancing.

IX has almost nothing for its third continent.

Jarmel · May 28, 2020

Morrigan said:
I love the deliberate obtuseness concerning anime in this thread. Like y'all don't know what everyone means by "anime", or that we can keep pretending that there isn't a massive difference between the anime style/tropes of Xenogears and what we have in Xenoblade games.

How would you differentiate the style of anime between Xenogears and Xenoblade 1? 2 is fairly easy as it's more in line with moe and modern anime trends focusing on boy meets girl. What about 1 though?

NattyBo · May 28, 2020

DiipuSurotu said:
Final Fantasy IX was developed in the Hawaii office with a lot of the same people that worked on The Spirits Within.

No FF movie would have meant no FFIX as we know it, too.

I'd sacrifice FF11 a billion and one times for a real Xenogears prequel or sequel

Andri · May 28, 2020

What is a tasty plasma ?

DiipuSurotu · May 28, 2020

Arthoneceron said:
I wonder if the next Chrono was also affected by the movie. It makes sense if we put it "chronologically".

Yes it was and we already knew it. After Chrono Cross was done, the Chrono team was put on FFXI because Sakaguchi discovered EverQuest while living in Hawaii and working on Square Pictures. If Sakaguchi hadn't become a fan of EverQuest, FFXI would not have happened and the Chrono team would not have been put on an MMO for over a decade...

King Kingo · May 28, 2020

Andri said:
Irc they are working on a Kingdom Hearts Anime/animated tv show, so it seems like they will never learn.

Kingdom Hearts is owned by Disney. They're requesting Square Enix to make the show via an Unreal Engine 4 prototype for a streaming service. This is not at all comparable to Spirits Within or Kingsglaive.

delete12345 said:
Licensing. Square owns Xenogears. Nintendo owns the Xenogears team.

Except it's not a licensing problem. Square Enix owns the rights to Xenogears because it was created before the formation of Monolith Soft. Yes, the creative team behind Xenogears are currently working under Nintendo through Monolith Soft but that's got nothing to do with rights and licensing.

Square Enix just doesn't see the demand necessary to justify remaking the game.

Morrigan said:
But go off, I guess~

Hold on, since when did I invalidate your opinion of Xenoblade Chronicles? if you didn't like it, you didn't like it. I loved Xenogears and it has so much going for it that Xenoblade Chronicles doesn't, but I still believe it was a necessary sacrificial lamb.

mute · May 28, 2020

As someone who loved Xenogears but never really was intrested in what Xensosaga was I'm not sure I am really missing what a would-be -gears 2 would be.

evilmonkey · May 28, 2020

Kaim said:
Takahashi: But looking back, you made the FF movie and then the online game was developed. I think they left a really significant legacy. I genuinely think that the know-how developed back then has left its mark on the culture and opened up new paths for us all.

Sakaguchi: But when I worked on it, I realised that games were games. They just aren't films... (laughs)

It seems that Takahashi dosen't bear any resentment with the film, on the contrary.

And he shouldn't. The film's failure wasn't really Sakaguchi's fault either. Square was the hottest new thing and everyone (including the stock market) thought they could turn FF into a giant multi-media brand like Star Wars. They were expected to make a large push into the film industry. Of course any sensible person could see that wouldn't be easy at all, but business isn't always done based on common sense.

DiipuSurotu · May 28, 2020

mute said:
As someone who loved Xenogears but never really was intrested in what Xensosaga was I'm not sure I am really missing what a would-be -gears 2 would be.

Xenosaga didn't have the complete Xenogears team working on it. It was only part of the team and thus only part of the influences and creativity of the original game.

Xavi · May 28, 2020

Ah yes, Xenogears. The game that has kissing cousins and, debatable, parental incest tropes but it's totally a different "anime".

Jarmel · May 28, 2020

Xavi said:
Ah yes, Xenogears. The game that has kissing cousins and, debatable, parental incest tropes but it's totally a different "anime".

Xenogears is significantly more 'anime' than Xenoblade 1 and X is.

DiipuSurotu · May 28, 2020

Xavi said:
Ah yes, Xenogears. The game that has kissing cousins and, debatable, parental incest tropes but it's totally a different "anime".

What anime has kissing cousins and "parental incest tropes"?

Jarmel · May 28, 2020

DiipuSurotu said:
What anime has kissing cousins and "parental incest tropes"?

There's a number of them but that's probably a derail that we won't ever recover from.

Vault · May 28, 2020

Encephalon said:
Saga Frontier 2 is also probably unfinished. Maybe more than Xenogears.

VIII clearly needed more time for balancing.

IX has almost nothing for its third continent.

you could say that for everything Square made in the 90s, they released games in 2 years even if they weren't finished.

FF7 sold 10 million copies and they still rushed Xenogears and Saga Frontier out the door unfinished

Nothing to do with Spirits Within bombing

Duonala · May 28, 2020

Glio said:
Old anime good, new anime bad. Obviously my youth is better than the others. /s

Anime is great, but trashy generic looking anime is not good. Like in XB2's case.

evilmonkey · May 28, 2020

Kadin said:
Did it really lose 94M or was it more like how many films don't show a profit which is why so many actors take a % of gross instead? Something about how the accounting is done iirc...

What you're referring to is Hollywood accounting, which wouldn't apply here since Square wasn't structured like your average big movie studio. For example, WB Pictures could funnel all of a film's profits through Warner Music and therefore claim the film was a "failure" for them. It wasn't possible for Square to do something like that.

DiipuSurotu · May 28, 2020

Jarmel said:
There's a number of them but that's probably a derail that we won't ever recover from.

I mean aside from full-on hentai and obscene anime.

Glio · May 28, 2020

Anoud said:
Anime is great, but trashy generic looking anime is not good. Like in XB2's case.

Xenogears was generic anime when released. The generic anime of the 90s is different from the generic anime of now.

Lee Chaolan · May 28, 2020

So much Oof

NSESN · May 28, 2020

Anoud said:
Anime is great, but trashy generic looking anime is not good. Like in XB2's case.

we arent even talking about XB2

Jarmel · May 28, 2020

DiipuSurotu said:
I mean aside from full-on hentai and obscene anime.

There's a lot, especially the cousin stuff. I can think of 4-5 quickly off the top of my head.

Encephalon · May 28, 2020

Vault said:
you could say that for everything Square made in the 90s, they released games in 2 years even if they weren't finished.

FF7 sold 10 million copies and they still rushed Xenogears and Saga Frontier out the door unfinished

Nothing to do with Spirits Within bombing

Just because XG released in 98 and spirits within came out in 2001 doesn't mean that XG2 wasn't on the table. It could have easily been planned as a next gen title.

Xavi · May 28, 2020

DiipuSurotu said:
What anime has kissing cousins and "parental incest tropes"?

Kill la Kill has the parental incest trope

Thatguy · May 28, 2020

delete12345 said:
Licensing. Square owns Xenogears. Nintendo owns the Xenogears team.

I said give it to a new team.

NattyBo · May 28, 2020

So is there anything theoretically preventing Squenix and Nintendo/Monolith teaming up for a real Xenogears followup? I know it's not going to happen just trying to ascertain what actual barriers there are.

DiipuSurotu · May 28, 2020

NattyBo said:
So is there anything theoretically preventing Squenix and Nintendo/Monolith teaming up for a real Xenogears followup? I know it's not going to happen just trying to ascertain what actual barriers there are.

A collaboration would probably be expensive, and the Xeno games were never huge sellers

SteelBeast6Beets · May 28, 2020

Xavi said:
Ah yes, Xenogears. The game that has kissing cousins and, debatable, parental incest tropes but it's totally a different "anime".

No wonder why Morrigan is batting for the game.

(She basically told us in the female design thread that we should ignore the incest tones in the Trails In the Sky games simply because main character Estelle is a semi decent female protagonist. Despite her being a dumb klutz that develops feeling for her adoptive brother.)

Duonala · May 28, 2020

Glio said:
Xenogears was generic anime when released. The generic anime of the 90s is different from the generic anime of now.

Not really. I've be watching anime for over 20 years, and even at that time period you will hardly find similar looking characters to Xenogears.

Ridley327 · May 28, 2020

NattyBo said:
So is there anything theoretically preventing Squenix and Nintendo/Monolith teaming up for a real Xenogears followup? I know it's not going to happen just trying to ascertain what actual barriers there are.

Theoretically, no, but there's little reason for Nintendo to put Monolith on something that they won't own, and Squenix would have to be willing to limit the potential audience reach with a Monolith-developed Xenogears being a de facto Nintendo-exclusive title forever.

Pancracio17 · May 28, 2020

Making this movie has to be one of the worst decisions of all time

TrishaCat · May 28, 2020

Spirits Within was a good and fascinating movie and for some reason my childhood self thought it took place in the FF7 universe.
While I enjoyed it, its a shame Xenogears 2 couldn't have happened.

Saiyaman · May 28, 2020

Xenogears really gotta be the best JRPG to ever grace this world with the way some of yall talk about it and slander XBC like it isn't a great game.

My mom took me to see Spirits Within as a child. My first reaction was that it was nothing like FF7; I still enjoyed it though.

Dreamwriter · May 28, 2020

Mobu said:
I still dont get why a videogame company thought opening a photorealistic film animation studio in hawaii was a good idea

Square at the time was known for good storytelling, they were known for their amazing CGI cutscenes, and movies at the time made more money than video games. So they thought, why not be another all-CGI movie studio, a Pixar with more serious films? They also thought it would be a win-win, they could use the movie studio to make higher quality cutscenes for their games, and what they learned making movies could apply to their games.

It really did make sense, but their first movie had a blockbuster-sized budget but flopped, and they hadn't had years of other, smaller hits to pay for blockbuster flops like established movie studios do. They really should have started smaller and worked their way up, but then the whole point of the studio was "look at the amazing stuff we can do", so I'm not sure how they would have started smaller.

evilmonkey · May 28, 2020

NattyBo said:
So is there anything theoretically preventing Squenix and Nintendo/Monolith teaming up for a real Xenogears followup? I know it's not going to happen just trying to ascertain what actual barriers there are.

Theoretically, no. There is just no incentive for any of them to do it. Monolith feels no incentive to work on Gears when they have their own Xeno series to work on. Nintendo feels no need to look into reviving it since they already have the next best thing which is selling better than Gears ever did, as well as all the creative leads in their payroll. There is no point for Square since Gears never sold all that well to begin with and such a project would only be worthwhile if it's multiplatform which the others would definitely not be in favor of for obvious reasons.

King Kingo · May 28, 2020

Ridley327 said:
If the exposure Xenosaga got in Xenoblade 2 wasn't enough for Bamco to greenlight an HD collection for the trilogy, what hope does Xenogears have then? Folks that love Xenoblade are likely looking for more Xenoblade.

Exposure had nothing to do with a Xenosaga remaster being declined. It was more to do with the fact that it wasn't considered a worthy return of investment for Bandai Namco presumably because they wanted Monolith Soft to work on the remaster.

Xenogears doesn't have that complication going for it.

Quinton · May 28, 2020

Saiyaman said:
Xenogears really gotta be the best JRPG to ever grace this world with the way some of yall talk about it and slander XBC like it isn't a great game.

My mom took me to see Spirits Within as a child. My first reaction was that it was nothing like FF7; I still enjoyed it though.

I'm not disparaging XBC (I'll soon find out whether or not I like it) but yeah, Xenogears really is fairly damn excellent. It is a profound, albeit profoundly flawed, game.

Wireframe · May 28, 2020

Is it also possible that the PS2 FF 7,8 and 9 remakes were cancelled because of the movie bombing?

Xenogears 2 Didn’t Happen Because of FF: Spirits Within – Monolith Soft President Sugiura [Update: Xenosaga art not drawn by Soraya Saga]

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