Xbox Series S Won’t Apply Xbox One X BC Enhancements, Microsoft Confirms

[Mr_F_Snowman]

Ok, so you're telling me casuals didn't purchase the wii? Lol ok convo over.

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My word, you are dense. Do you understand what a demographic is? I'm saying that the casuals who purchased the Wii to play Wii Sports / Wii Fit etc are not the same casual audience that buys COD / Madden every year. You actually know how many units those type of games shifted on Wii? It's a tiny portion of that consoles audience

Hence why I said the demographic is totally different. Hence why I said its the not the same audience.

The Wiis "casual" gamers and the "casual" gamers buying COD / Madden aren't the same. Anyone with a brain can figure it out mate so give it a go you'll get it eventually

 

[Cyclonesweep]

I though series s was overall more powerful than the one x because RDNA 2. At least that's what everyone here has been saying.

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It is more powerful.

 

[headspawn]

Where's my FF7 remake port for Xbox then?

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Covered in a pile of Sony cash.

 

[Perzeval]

Disappointing. Lock my heart, will you?

 

[plagiarize]

Eh, given how many Switch ports of games absolutely NOT designed with it in mind have proven to be possible, I'm not worrying about Series S holding things back. Late gen, Series S is going to probably struggle, like late gen Xbox One S struggles.

But looking at how late gen Xbox 360 struggled, I'm not sure that's even got much to do with hardware power vs developer ambition.

 

[Negotiator117]

I was agreeing with you.

God, it's so gross that the expected normal behavior on the internet is that everyone be at each others throats.

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I wasn't having a go, sorry if it came across like that.

 

[Its Dead Jim]

I have to say, I'd be surprised if it wasn't at least a factor in some select games possibly not coming to the platform later, depending on just how well the S does.

Especially in special cases like late ports of, say, Japanese games that prioritize the PS5. For example, if we see another Yakuza-like situation next-gen where a game is built for PS5, and porting down to Series S proves a bit problematic, we might see situations where they simply don't bother. But again, that does depend on just how well an individual game is expected to sell on Series S. I can just see the difficulty of the port being another factor that goes into that decision making process.

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No chance. Cyberpunk is launching on the One S. If this can happen with a game like that then there will be no issues launching any 'next gen' games on the XSS.

 

[ShinUltramanJ]

Lame. I didn't think the BC waters would be so muddy.

The Series X is a much better value overall.

 

[Vinc]

Games on XSS will be scaled diwn to meet the devs aims/goals. Ideally, dropping the res will be enough and fps/details/effects will stay the same.

This wont always be the case and other concessions may need to be made i.e drop detsils/effects to keep fps locked or accept inconsistent frames to keep details high.

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What sucks about this is that outside of Nintendo consoles, this is the most underpowered a console has ever been at launch, to my understanding. And considering how poor the experience can be on One S even these days, it sucks to think that things may look even worse in 7 years. And there's no question Series S will hold back the design of third party games for this gen.

It'll be interesting to see just how much better PS5 exclusives will be compared to the competition- and knowing that third party games do have to compete against that level in some cases, I wonder what ends up happening.

 

[Powerofthecloud]

The system is being marketed as a hd system this isn't surprising but unfortunate.

 

[Deleted member 43]

I have to say, I'd be surprised if it wasn't at least a factor in some select games possibly not coming to the platform later, depending on just how well the S does.

Especially in special cases like late ports of, say, Japanese games that prioritize the PS5. For example, if we see another Yakuza-like situation next-gen where a game is built for PS5, and porting down to Series S proves a bit problematic, we might see situations where they simply don't bother. But again, that does depend on just how well an individual game is expected to sell on Series S. I can just see the difficulty of the port being another factor that goes into that decision making process.

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Unless a game takes full and indispensable advantage of the PS5's SSD (which will be rare), it's very unlikely a game will be designed in a way that makes porting them to the S too difficult to undertake if the publisher was already interested in porting them to the X.

I'm not going to say it won't happen ever, period, but it's not a reasonable general concern.

 

[Vinc]

No chance. Cyberpunk is launching on the One S. If this can happen with a game like that then there will be no issues launching any 'next gen' games on the XSS.

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Cyberpunk is not a next-gen game. We won't see games that are truly designed for next-gen until a few years from now. That's just a fact, regardless of how impressive Cyberpunk is by current standards.

 

[Equanimity]

These posts
...good god

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You need to take a step back and relax a bit. There's nothing wrong with that post.

All of this new info can in fact be a deal breaker for some of us.

 

[19thCenturyFox]

Eh, given how many Switch ports of games absolutely NOT designed with it in mind have proven to be possible, I'm not worrying about Series S holding things back. Late gen, Series S is going to probably struggle, like late gen Xbox One S struggles.

But looking at how late gen Xbox 360 struggled, I'm not sure that's even got much to do with hardware power vs developer ambition.

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Those miracle Switch ports usually don't have to release day and date with the higher end version though. That being said, unless I'm misunderstanding things, Matt seems to hint that Series S versions are not mandatory outside of commercial factors making them mandatory, so a dev could potentially opt out of releasing a Series S equivalent of their Series X game or they could release it at a later date, which is something that I didn't expect.

I thought Series S support would be like Sony requiring that PS4 games from this summer onward run without issues on PS5.

 

[Skyebaron]

It is more powerful.

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On the CPU side and for next gen titles that use the IO Speeds. GPU is weaker.

 

[Vinc]

Unless a game takes full and indispensable advantage of the PS5's SSD (which will be rare), it's very unlikely a game will be designed in a way that makes porting them to the S too difficult to undertake if the publisher was already interested in porting them to the X.

I'm not going to say it won't happen ever, period, but it's not a reasonable general concern.

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That's fair- though I was thinking more of situations where a publisher isn't INITIALLY interested in publishing on Xbox, but ultimately has a change of heart. That's admittedly an extreme edge case here, but I'm thinking of games like Yakuza this gen. Then again, that kind of game doesn't tend to be AAA, and might be easy to port down due to not exactly utilizing the full feature-set of a PS5.

All that being said, what a bummer this is. It really does feel like the gap between Xbox exclusives and third party games might be the largest it's ever been in comparison to Sony's. Xbox might've solved their issue with the lack of investment in AAA games, but now they're "hampered" by having to support underpowered hardware. I hope in the end this turns out to be a false concern, because I'd love to see third party games that can be just as ambitious as a Sony first party game on the tech side of things. Games like GTA VI are going to be so interesting, and probably a perfect test case for seeing how much the Series S limits next-gen third party games.

 

[AGN]

My word, you are dense. Do you understand what a demographic is? I'm saying that the casuals who purchased the Wii to play Wii Sports / Wii Fit etc are not the same casual audience that buys COD / Madden every year. You actually know how many units those type of games shifted on Wii? It's a tiny portion of that consoles audience

Hence why I said the demographic is totally different. Hence why I said its the not the same audience.

The Wiis "casual" gamers and the "casual" gamers buying COD / Madden aren't the same. Anyone with a brain can figure it out mate so give it a go you'll get it eventually

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I'm not even going to dignify your reply with a response, but I will say you seem extremely unhappy and egotistical. It's not a good sign that you're desperate to argue about the definition of "casual" on an internet video game forum. Truly, I wish you the best and I hope your day/week/year gets better.

 

[TheRealBigRich]

Lame. I didn't think the BC waters would be so muddy.

The Series X is a much better value overall.

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Do ppl feel this way solely off of BC ? I mean for 200$ less you would expect some sacrifices I would think

 

[DukeBlueBall]

You need to take a step back and relax a bit. There's nothing wrong with that post.

All of this new info can in fact be a deal breaker for some of us.

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Yeah.

no 1X BC is a legit dealbreaker for a lot of people.

On the other hand, one shouldn't draw conclusions about next gen performance from BC capabilities. Did we forget the current gen consoles have limited to no BC?

 

[N.47H.4N]

No chance. Cyberpunk is launching on the One S. If this can happen with a game like that then there will be no issues launching any 'next gen' games on the XSS.

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Since when a game from prior gen is a benchmark for next gen systems?

 

[Aurora]

At this rate for the extra $200 the Series X looks like much better value now. You get a disc drive, 3 times the teraflops, all the One X enhancements, and secure that next gen games will run at higher resolutions and won't suffer cutbacks in other areas in order to get the game running. I was thinking of purchasing a Series S but now a Series X looks a lot better. For $499 you're getting a decent piece of hardware anyway: the SSD and Ryzen is fantastic and Game Pass means it's still relatively affordable to jump into next gen.

Spoiler

Wait a second

 

[ItIsOkBro]

Kind of feels like this is more of a product thing. They don't want to cross the lines and have XSS playing X1X games.

The XSS is obviously capable of playing a 360 game that has been X1X enhanced.

 

[Equanimity]

Yeah.

no 1X BC is a legit dealbreaker for a lot of people.

On the other hand, one shouldn't draw conclusions about next gen performance from BC capabilities. Did we forget the current gen consoles have limited to no BC?

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Oh yeah, drawing absolute next-gen software conclusions is a bit premature. Some devs have shared their concerns though, let's see how it plays out.

 

[Cyclonesweep]

On the CPU side and for next gen titles that use the IO Speeds. GPU is weaker.

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It's raw terraflops are but overall it's a bit stronger. Comparing terraflops across generation lines don't work quite as well. The newer tech essentially uses each terraflop more efficiently.

That and the difference between the CPUs aren't even close.

 

[Its Dead Jim]

What sucks about this is that outside of Nintendo consoles, this is the most underpowered a console has ever been at launch, to my understanding. And considering how poor the experience can be on One S even these days, it sucks to think that things may look even worse in 7 years. And there's no question Series S will hold back the design of third party games for this gen.

It'll be interesting to see just how much better PS5 exclusives will be compared to the competition- and knowing that third party games do have to compete against that level in some cases, I wonder what ends up happening.

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Its not underpowered for what its expected to do though, anyone with a gaming PC will know the horsepower required to run a game at 4K 60fps with high settings (not even ultra), dropping the res to 1080p/1440p gives you so much performance back.

I built a PC for 4K gaming last year, bought 4K monitor and everything, within a month I'd sold the monitor and gpu and bought a 1440p144Hz monitor and 2070 Super. Much better performance/detail ratio at that level. I even had a few weeks on a 1080p monitor and the performance on the 2070S was superb.

There will be no issues, outside the typical dev balancing act between fps/detail/res, getting "next gen" games running on the XSS.

 

[DukeBlueBall]

Oh yeah, drawing absolute next-gen software conclusions is a bit premature. Some devs have shared their concerns though, let's see how it plays out.

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yep

8 core 4.0 ghz Zen2
16TF
8GB HBM2 at 1024GB/s
16GB DDR4 at 200GB/s
1TB SSD

The above system won't be able to get 1X BC enhancements natively due to lacking 9GB of ram at >326GB/s. Doesn't mean it's weaker than the 1X in anyway.

 

[Beer Monkey]

I wasn't having a go, sorry if it came across like that.

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It's all good. :)

Kind of feels like this is more of a product thing. They don't want to cross the lines and have XSS playing X1X games.

The XSS is obviously capable of playing a 360 game that has been X1X enhanced.

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I mean, the X1X enhancement of 360 games is all based around 4k and often HDR and rendering to literally 9x (3x scale on each axis) the pixel count of how the game renders on the 360.

Maybe the BC team at some point could do the same for Series S but at 4x (2x scale on each axis) the pixel count. I can't see them having the time to do that right now.

 

[Its Dead Jim]

Cyberpunk is not a next-gen game. We won't see games that are truly designed for next-gen until a few years from now. That's just a fact, regardless of how impressive Cyberpunk is by current standards.

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What is "next gen" in this context? Cyberpunk on an RTX 3090 will be more impressive than anything on either PS5 or XSX.

 

[Deleted member 43]

Yeah.

no 1X BC is a legit dealbreaker for a lot of people.

On the other hand, one shouldn't draw conclusions about next gen performance from BC capabilities. Did we forget the current gen consoles have limited to no BC?

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This is absolutely correct. The aspects of the Series S's design that necessitate it being limited to One S BC aren't really directly indicative of next gen performance. MS could theoretically make changes to the S that would greatly increase its cost and close much of the performance gap between it and the X, while still leaving it married to One S BC profiles. And the opposite is also true.

 

[Chippewa Barr]

Kinda a bummer, but makes sense no? (at least from marketing perspective?)

If you had the One X (premium console) you're likely not the target demographic for the Series S (budget console). I can't imagine the overlap from One X to Series S purchasers is very large. One X owners will jump on the Series X, One S owners will jump on the Series S.

My hope was that all next gen consoles would jack up the frame rate on BC games though, hope that still comes to pass with the beefy CPUs, from both Sony and MS.

 

[Vinc]

What is "next gen" in this context? Cyberpunk on an RTX 3090 will be more impressive than anything on either PS5 or XSX.

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A game not built with current-gen consoles in mind. A game like Ratchet & Clank will do things that Cyberpunk cannot do, and games truly entirely built with next-gen in mind won't come until a bit later. I'm not worried about Series S holding back cross-gen games that are already built with the One S in mind, I'm worried about games years from now having to either be severely compromised in their S version or worse yet, having to be heavily descoped across all platforms because the S is holding things back.

All this talk about how the console being the new minspec not mattering and not holding back next-gen is just... patently false. The question is HOW MUCH will it hold things back, but the fact is- this is the most underpowered console Sony or MS ever launched at the start ofa generation. There's no doubt that this will affect how games are designed for years to come. And my worry, which I think is probably legitimate but would love to hear someone explain why it's unfounded, is that the divide between first party PS5 games and third party PS5 / Series X games and Xbox exclusives will be the largest it's ever been this gen.

 

[Musubi]

The more information gets released, the more I'm starting to doubt that this console will be able to even deliver 1080p30 at a feasible rate as soon as Microsoft's dogma of "cross gen for the first 2 years" ends.

Who is this console for anyway? Certainly not for users with 4K TVs. But it can't be for 1080p people either because it's going to look so much worse than Series X and prolly even Xbox One X. Someone please enlighten me.

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Its a good entry point for Playstation fans who are interested in gamepass or Xbox exclusives but don't want to commit to a larger investment with the XSX

 

[Urfe]

Dumb question maybe, but in Japan, One X is starting to be sold for cheaper and cheaper. I plan on buying a PS5, but should I just buy a One X for 25,000 yen (240 dollars?) instead of a Series S?
I mainly want to play three generations of Xbox games in my 4K OLED.

What would run Skate 3 or Panzer Dragoon better?

 

[eathdemon]

A game not built with current-gen consoles in mind. A game like Ratchet & Clank will do things that Cyberpunk cannot do, and games truly entirely built with next-gen in mind won't come until a bit later. I'm not worried about Series S holding back cross-gen games that are already built with the One S in mind, I'm worried about games years from now having to either be severely compromised in their S version or worse yet, having to be heavily descoped across all platforms because the S is holding things back.

All this talk about how the console being the new minspec not mattering and not holding back next-gen is just... patently false. The question is HOW MUCH will it hold things back, but the fact is- this is the most underpowered console Sony or MS ever launched at the start ofa generation. There's no doubt that this will affect how games are designed for years to come. And my worry, which I think is probably legitimate but would love to hear someone explain why it's unfounded, is that the divide between first party PS5 games and third party PS5 / Series X games and Xbox exclusives will be the largest it's ever been this gen.

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but even as a "minspec" case, the s is a major jump over current consoles. a cpu that is 5x current gen, a gpu that is 3x current gen8GBs of very high speed ram, a ssd, and rt hardware. its just a nextgen box built for 1080p, not 4k.

 

[Its Dead Jim]

Since when a game from prior gen is a benchmark for next gen systems?

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Since that game running on an RTX 3090 will be the benchmark and likely beyond anything running on XSX or PS5 for most, if not all, of the upcoming gen.

 

[eathdemon]

Dumb question maybe, but in Japan, One X is starting to be sold for cheaper and cheaper. I plan on buying a PS5, but should I just buy a One X for 25,000 yen (240 dollars?) instead of a Series S?
I mainly want to play three generations of Xbox games in my 4K OLED.

What would run Skate 3 or Panzer Dragoon better?

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xss hands down, you may not get 4k, but the ssd+cpu and hdr support for old games makes it a better buy.

 

[Andromeda]

Xbox Series S seems more and more like a trojan Xcloud console.

 

[canderous]

So let me get this straight.

- The $299 console still has full BC with every Xbox one game. It has BC with tons of games from 360. Even has BC with some OG Xbox games. 4 generations of games.

- It runs these games better than their original versions in every way. More stable frame rate, max anisotropic filtering, maxed out dynamic resolution when a game uses it, and adds fucking HDR to games as old as 19 years.

And this is... bad? Because they're not 4k? Is that about the gist of this of this thread? I don't know if I can sift through all 22 pages.

 

[Lukas Taves]

The CPU is essentially the same between the X, S, and PS5. That's largely a non-factor.

The RAM differences are the biggest issue here, and then the GPU. Resolution will not nearly cover the whole delta in many or most cases.

Worrying about the S massively holding back the other systems' potential is largely hyperbole, but at the same time discounting the complications it introduces or thinking it will be an afterthought in development (unless it completely bombs) is just not realistic. The S will be the new baseline performance profile developers need to keep in mind when developing games, just like the original Xbox One was.

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I don't see it being just like xbone was because the gap between xbone and X was much bigger than between SS and SX, plus they have the same architecture, features and a similar memory layout.

It won't be the case where the SS is so pathetically underpowered that at 900p and below it still gives developers more trouble to optimize than X aiming in the north of 1800p-4k.

 

[eathdemon]

Since that game running on an RTX 3090 will be the benchmark and likely beyond anything running on XSX or PS5 for most, if not all, of the upcoming gen.

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cyberpunk is nextgen in all but name, its gunna run like shit on all versions of xb1/ps4.

 

[Stooge]

Yeah, this is looking like it's more designed for casual gamers or people without 4K TVs (or kind of crappy bargain bin 4K TVs). I might get one for my second TV still and I assume it's more *capable* than the One X, but probably less capable of 4k than the One X if that makes any sense

 

[Hockeymac18]

Series S has slower ram I think? It makes sense since One X was designed to run games at higher resolution

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edit: nevermind.

 

[Devilgunman]

Dumb question maybe, but in Japan, One X is starting to be sold for cheaper and cheaper. I plan on buying a PS5, but should I just buy a One X for 25,000 yen (240 dollars?) instead of a Series S?
I mainly want to play three generations of Xbox games in my 4K OLED.

What would run Skate 3 or Panzer Dragoon better?

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If you want 4k then XSS isn't even an option. Your options are XB1X or XBSX.

 

[THEVOID]

So let me get this straight.

- The $299 console still has full BC with every Xbox one game. It has BC with tons of games from 360. Even has BC with some OG Xbox games. 4 generations of games.

- It runs these games better than their original versions in every way. More stable frame rate, max anisotropic filtering, maxed out dynamic resolution when a game uses it, and adds fucking HDR to games as old as 19 years.

And this is... bad? Because they're not 4k? Is that about the gist of this of this thread? I don't know if I can sift through all 22 pages.

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Nope and getting my preorder ready. Too Damn cute not to get it.

 

[DeadmansTheory]

I really wish I could say 'but you'll get a next gen version of Control that'll run at at least 1080p and look better in other ways for no extra charge!'.

But I can't say that to anyone who bought the game prior to this week:/

I really hope they get shamed into letting people get the upgrade without having to rebuy all the content they already paid for, even if it means a small upgrade fee, but I'm not holding my breath.

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[arsene_P5]

What does the Series X deliver though? I never considered that part of BC at all.

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Xbox does apply many enhancements beyond what you usually get from BC to the games.

So it can't play with X enhancements but it won't hold back next gen at all? Huh. Okay.

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What are you even talking about? It can't run Xbox One X games via BC, but if you would port them it could.

Well that's shit.

So on the brand new console I'm planning on getting, the MCC is still going to have a shitty framerate?

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Framerates will be better. Sometimes double even....

Series S.

Quicker than a PS5

Not as quick as an Xbox One X

Lol

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What?

 

[Nostremitus]

Source please.

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It was from this slide, but now I can't find the article it was in to see which presentation was referenced.

 

[gravitationsfeld]

This is kinda weird all things considered, shouldn't XSS be able to brute force this stuff? It's stronger than XBX.

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It doesn't have enough RAM. Also no, the GPU isn't faster either.

 

[platocplx]

cyberpunk is nextgen in all but name, its gunna run like shit on all versions of xb1/ps4.

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CD projekt red typically devs their games with PC in mind so yup. Lol.

 

[BasilZero]

So let me get this straight.

- The $299 console still has full BC with every Xbox one game. It has BC with tons of games from 360. Even has BC with some OG Xbox games. 4 generations of games.

- It runs these games better than their original versions in every way. More stable frame rate, max anisotropic filtering, maxed out dynamic resolution when a game uses it, and adds fucking HDR to games as old as 19 years.

And this is... bad? Because they're not 4k? Is that about the gist of this of this thread? I don't know if I can sift through all 22 pages.

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question - those Xbox games and 360 games , can I purchase them digitally or do I need the physical games?

would love to play lost odyssey and blue dragon...