You don't get it. Her breasts moving to the wind is symbolic for her act of motherhood towards the player being as passing as the wind itself. /s
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs |OT2| I have no pants and I must scream (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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You don't get it. Her breasts moving to the wind is symbolic for her act of motherhood towards the player being as passing as the wind itself. /s
Not surprising seeing as it's the same director as God Eater. That game was bananas. Post-apocalyptic monster-infested world and all the women were dressed like they're about to go out clubbing.
Oh I see, maybe because we weren't talking about exactly the same thing then? Because I still definitely think video games are an extremely prudish medium, partly because the medium is still vastly trying to cater to teenagers and as such has to conform to the ratings in place (otherwise parents won't buy), hence why you never actually see depiction of actual proper sexuality much, or only in niche games.
The narrative aspect of it all though, sure, I totally agree. It's easy for game devs to create dialogues in which their characters are depicted as womanizers, in which it is implied they have slept with many women, in which hints at their sexual prowess are being made. However, that, to me, is still just tame narrative tricks, and while I agree that the treatment of male characters differ immensely from the female ones on that narrative level already, at the end of the day, what all those characters are allowed to do regardless of their genders, is kiss their partners, and get a fade to black on a cute piano music, and cut to the next scene.
I haven't played all the games you mentioned here, but to my knowledge, the only game that comes to mind and didn't shy away in regard to sexual representation (as much as decency allowed), was Dragon Age: Inquisition. You can see characters having sex, and not just being vaguely hinted at it in a joking and light manner like it definitely mostly is all throughout Uncharted's 4 games for Nathan Drake, for example.
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*blinks*
Erm, yeah that's... not what happens in the game I listed. While obviously not pornographic, those games have actual sex scenes (sometimes multiple), often with nudity.
I don't understand the need to try explaining the designs, both are seemingly into some kind of BDSM stuff and aware of their flirtation etc. But it's not important imo, in the end they're designed that way simply because the designers designed them that way, it could've just as well been Princess Peach if the designers wanted to have a BDSM character in a Mario game. The characters have no control over anything, they're just a creation from pen and paper. Talking about their made up personalities is dodging the problem imo.
But I agree that it seems less okay when an otherwise serious character in a fighting game wears a bikini or that stupid costume with rabbits ears and tail, because they aren't acting and animated in a way that makes them aware of it, a character can wear stupid clothes while being completely oblivious of the absurdity in a serious cutscene. If the devs was clever they could've at least put in prefight talk that was changing with the costumes, with the opponent mocking a dumb costume choice or complementing a nice look or someone wearing a bikini freezing unless they were at a warm beach or whatever.
Quoting this post because I love it and it mirrors what I've been saying for years. Sex is such an amazing experience, and I legitimately believe it's one of the most fundamental and beautiful parts of our lives. It should be celebrated, it should be explored, it should be discussed in a meaningful, mature manner, and we should all be proud of who we are sexually and what we love.
BUT! But, the exploration of sex should be contextually appropriate.
A touching and mildly amusing sex scene between Geralt and his long lost love, Yennefer, who he recently reunited with through great peril and toil while they were searching for their adopted daughter, that's beautiful, tasteful stuff.
The female on your JRPG team who is conveniently dressed for the strip club with her bra-less colossal jiggling breasts that are conveniently only covered in the nipple area who keeps making orgasm sounds when she swings her weapon, gets hurt, casts magic, climbs, jumps, picks up or throws anything, walks, breaths, or exists.....well that's just fucking pervy nonsense, it's tasteless, it's immature, and it's insulting.
Women are not treated as characters by much of our media creators, they are treated as objects that exist to amuse and arouse the assumed male player. I'm a straight male who utterly abhors this pandering, as I find that it insults my intelligence with the assumption that I am so beholden to my baser desires that I would wish all women in a world exist to amuse and titillate me.
TBH, I still think a big problem in the gaming industry is the overall lack of diversity in the people making these things, and the insular nature of those who do.
A creative industry that can only draw inspiration from limited sources (predominantly itself), and doesn't give its workers opportunity to go out and experience life - the fundamental fuel of creativity - is dooming itself to stagnation.
A creative industry that can only draw inspiration from limited sources (predominantly itself), and doesn't give its workers opportunity to go out and experience life - the fundamental fuel of creativity - is dooming itself to stagnation.
Game developers and publishers have a long and unfortunate history of being volatile towards minority employees.
After a talk with my SO on the subject, I'll admit that my initial use of the word prudish was probably not the best one to properly describe my opinion here. My feelings are that video games, as they are right now, haven't been able most of the times to display and talk about sex in healthy, interesting & mature ways. I feel it is currently stuck between the Hollywood blockbuster "kiss and fade to black" trope (which is where AC Odyssey or RDR2 would be, for example), and full on male power-fantasies (à la OG God Of War/GTA/Duke Nukem) which, arguably, I'm not interested in in the slightest, (so I don't play these kinds of games in the first place, hence why my initial point of view was the way it was, I don't encounter those kinds of sex scenes a lot simply because the games in which they happen often do not cater to me at all).
I feel like there should be a middle ground in which sexuality is tackled as a serious and mature subject (without veering into pornography either), much like movies and TV shows have tackled it many times before in interesting, inclusive and mature ways. Video games as a medium are mostly just nowhere near that kind of representation, and that is the pet peeve I've been having all along here. Some indie games are doing it though, but as for mainstream games, at the exception of some games here and there (Bioware be blessed), it's still pretty heavily just either non-existent in an hypocritical way (given how sexualized characters usually are - aesthetically and/or narratively), or just incredibly immature and sexist.
Oh, that's a completely different argument! I agree completely, especially with that part: My feelings are that video games, as they are right now, haven't been able most of the times to display and talk about sex in healthy, interesting & mature ways. Like, that's a given haha.
Oh, in my list of previous examples, I forgot BJ Blazkowicz in Wolfenstein: TNO. Which, actually, is probably one of the very few examples of a sex scene in a game that wasn't cringy stupidity or a lame male power fantasy.
I don't know if I'd count Bioware's "court them for a few side-quests and then get a sex scene as a reward" tropes as "mature and interesting" though. I find them cringy as hell. Maybe inclusive, sure, since they include women and LGBT in there, but that's kinda it... xD
Gamedev attracts a lot of nerdy types and, in my experience, nerds/geeks are some of the most intolerant people around. Classic "I got bullied like shit in high school, now it's my turn to be the bully" mentality.
See also: shitty attitudes towards women because none of the hot chicks in school wanted to date them.
God when i played the beta or whatever a few months ago, i couldn't keep a straight face. I'm like seriously, everyone else has these awesome outfits, but this chick is wearing a pretty tight ass dress with her breasts hanging out. That said....I'm totally hooked on this game.
I would count the relationships in BioWare games as mature - especially in DAI which is the best one so far for relationships. And they have moved past a few side quests and then sex, alot of them have the sex happen earlier, or have major events in the relationship after. It's really not "just a few side quests courting and sex",. Iron Bull for example, starts the relationship with sex, and it's seen as just something to release stress, it then goes past that, or if you get embarassed when you caught by your advisors (in a hilarious scene) and try to pretend you aren't together, he will break up with you. His personal quest can absolutely affect your relationship in that if you sacrifice the chargers, you teach him that he should sacrifice everything for the Qun, so when it comes to later when he's put in a position to pick you or the Qun, he picks the Qun. And that's just one of the relationships in that games. There are a lot of injteresting and mature writing going on there, and an important part is that a lot of the LI's will now have their own thoughts and feelings and break up with you if you do something they disagree with or if something comes along in the story which they feel is more important to them. It feels more realistic that way.
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Good to hear. Maybe I'm outdated in my opinions on Bioware stories, I'm not really familiar with their more recent games.
I think there are a few things that I can point to that are qualitatively different between Quiet and Bayonetta.
The existence of Bayonetta's design is open about being sexualized and is less based on hamfisted diegetic explanation. "The character is like this because we wanted her to be this way" is not ducked away from; her sexuality is not minimized.
A correlated point is that unlike most characters her sexuality is not conveyed via passive consumption. The means by which she engages in her sexuality is not just more open but also done in a way that doesn't shy away from being threatening. Bayonetta's sexuality is more in line with Golgo 13 the character (almost to the point I'm surprised there's no direct reference to it anywhere in-game) than to the now trite and stereotyped portayals of female sexuality associated especially with harem gag manga. This isn't to say that Golgo 13's expressions of sexuality are inherently healthy or positive but that outside of camera framing sexualization is a thing that Bayonetta's interactions with the world actively participate in rather than derive as a side-effect of happenstance ("oops, looks like your head collided right into my chest"). Flipping the script is not usually ideal representation but serves to complicate cultural narratives taken for granted and especially in that sense I am not surprised that there is a sizable group of women who find her design relatable or admirable.
I think at the same time this is also one of those cases a la Bechdel that is telling of the egregious deficit the industry has in designing interesting and complex female characters, that one of our higher water marks is what typifies a B-movie style of character development.
Coincidentally we also talked at length about how Bioware tackles this in general and I agree that the "sex scene as a reward for pursuing a relationship" isn't great much, just the fact that apparently having sex is the only goal in a relationship, and emphasizing on it without a care about what happens next, is such a reductive immature idea of relationships in itself that it's always a bit cringey. Such can be particularly felt in Assassin's Creed Odyssey, for example, where every encounters has little impact to the story whatsoever, and can all be summarized as being one-night stands. Once the sex part is done, you seldom ever see them or hear about them ever again (unless your name is Alkibiades and you're the best NPC of the entire game, that is). Not that I don't mind much since I can also enjoy roleplaying as a serial bisexual lover, but it... doesn't make most of them memorable much. It can be pretty fun though, but mostly shallow in the end.
However, I do feel that DA:I had some pretty interesting takes on that in particular. For some of them, sex comes first, then relationship after. For some, sex happens several times in the course of the game, relative to different events. For some, sex never happens because of outside circumstances (and also, without spoiling much, because of proper consent not being able to be given) (and that one romance got me GOOD, 4 years later I'm still not over it, help). Overall it really feels like attention was put into writing those relationships, in a way that felt somewhat substantial, genuine and realistic. As much as can be in a video game medium of course, but yeah, I feel it was a really well-done take on relationships, romances and sex.
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(I loved him omg it's so rare to see a sex positive pansexual icon! His personality was sketchy though, he's overall a good egg but can be hella manipulative as well and I get people not liking that, but his approach to sex and relationships was such a breath of fresh air to me! He surely was the most memorable NPC to me)
I hadn't heard of this game before but yeah.
My wife shouted at the iPad when that character came on during the direct. "WHOEVER DESIGNED THAT HAS NEVER SEEN A WOMAN!!!"
But how else would you know she's evil?
I hadn't heard of this game before but yeah.
Played a bit of the demo and along with this, thought it was interesting how even at the far end end of the physique scale, the female created characters still have a noticeable bust.
Seems these days if you want a Japanese game with a women without a huge bust size, it needs to be in the body of a prebusecent child. And even then it won't be enough now that some games decided to combine the two.
https://mana.fandom.com/wiki/Shinichi_Kameoka
I suppose this is the person she should be yelling at.
Let alone back in 1995.
Trials has an, overall, underdressed direction with it's cast of characters that seems to be the same with this remake.
I hadn't heard of this game before but yeah.
When I saw this, I was like yep...
the physics are creepy and makes it worse.
She is channeling the dark powers of the underworld.
She has to stock up all that power somewhere !!!
Pls understand
Fun fact, they seem to be doing their own thing for the classes designs, which means they'll probably avoid the even more problematic designs that way.
She has to stock up all that power somewhere !!!
Pls understand
Fun fact, they seem to be doing their own thing for the classes designs, which means they'll probably avoid the even more problematic designs that way.
In my understanding, I would make a distinction here between the norm "expression of straight prudent male sexuality" ( with subsequent marriage) on the one end and sex positivity, however expressed, on the other side. The first one you see very often:
- In the Witcher, you decide between two women which will be your lifelong partner, but you can have fun in a brothels nevertheless.
- In fire emblem three houses often the final support conversation ends in a marriage proposal.
- Nathan Drake in uncharted sound so far from what i have heard very straight and very conform in his relationships
- GTA had one non-straight character and a lot of bad depiction of sexuality.
On later topic, you don't see the following topic depicted very often in a positive way in AAA games (which I would count towards sex positivity):
- sexuality of non-binary genders
- kinks
- body positivity
- non-exclusivity of sexual partners accepted by all involved parties
- ...
As already stated, I think as well that it stems from the fact who makes that game and what was their up-bringing and what are their social norms with respect to sexuality. And that translates directly to what we see in the AAA depicted. I would really see some change here. In other media this already happened.
Nah.
And "being a classic" is about as bad an excuse for anything as "but it's a tradition!"
Breasts for milking. Reminds me of any time Captain Raymond Holt pretended to be straight, but had no idea how.In addition, today on Men don't know how to write Women:
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Just so people know, the narrator in this case is a dog. Which makes it worse on so many levels.In addition, today on Men don't know how to write Women:
I really wish this stopped being a thing, and I wish people would stop defending it.
HM being a black bisexual woman, i have a lot of lets say... opinions on kink, and most of it is negative, its just i'm not really a big fan of how much kink is made up of mostly straight men who like to do unsual and mostly abusive sexual things and then have everyone run around and call it queer. I've heard iceland classifies kink and BDSM enthused folk as lgbtq+, it so freaking dehuminizing to have things like the pedophilic ddlg genre linked to queernes, i don't like it and i honestly don't want it to be promoted in media like video games.
Of course i am here for the consensual aspects of kink that are specificly for lgbt people but it's just that to me the face of kink is a straight man choking a woman during sex and gross race slave role plays i'm just not here for it being promoted to young minds.
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I am very sorry to hear that you have such a negative experience of kink. It was just an example amongst others.
And it is used as a resplacement, if i understood you correctly, of what straight men do/want .
Earlier we discussed sexuality in games and that only the narrative, which is present in games, is what a straight men think should be the norm.
Therefore games are prudent.
So i argued that sex positivity should be more present in games, by including such things listed above, and specifically not a straight man choking women.
Which would also disqualify as consensual sex/ kink i think ?
Furthermore, the abuse/ non-consensual stuff is present and not handled very good or as an motivation for the main male character.
It really comes down to is there agreement between 2 character when it comes to kink and given the nature of how games work it usual poor at it.
People treat the lore like it was just divinely instantiated. Nope, it was written, just like characters are drawn. Someone decided "I'm going to write lore that requires all the women to show their boobs."
Hurt Me Plenty is interesting in the way that it formalizes such consent. If you violate the trust of the AI it will not feel comfortable around you and lock you out of playing it for a period of a few days to a few weeks.
Look I'm not gonna lie to y'all; I'm straight and if I see fanservice, I'ma go
...but after a while I'll be
I just don't stand fanservice much anymore and it makes me question the design.
Which reminds me, Y'shtola's zettai ryokai in FF14 is just dumb. Let her wear pants you nimrods....
Yeah, I also got tired of excessive fanservice. Shows like Ikkitousen was the breaking point for me.
Speaking of fanservice, the which female SSB fighters you wanna see? thread is about what you'd imagine.
Lots of boobies, thighs, and fanservice.
Lots of boobies, thighs, and fanservice.
I saw a lot of calls for 2B as I expected. I think Jill from Resi 1 is a good shout out though.
Both are good, 2B would need a slight redesign to be in smash, i believe, but it would be nice seeing her in a fighting game with less sexualization since she's still a good character :(
I mean, it's not like Bayonetta gets naked there or Kamui/corrin got a slight redesign 🙄
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