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Why women criticise sexualised character designs |OT2| I have no pants and I must scream (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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The men in the first page of the DC thread would beg to differ*rolls eyes bc of course they do*
She is close, but she isn't shown to be in control of her sexuality, she just like her looks.
There is an entire Felix the Cat level of a bag full of problems with her, but at least in this department she is close.
I get banned ALOT because of this, I need to adopt your mentality...
I mean I love the dragons crown games, but It's pretty obvious that Kamitani loves loves loves loves to draw his women a "certain" way in pretty much every single piece of art work he's done. That is his style. But It's still just one of his fetishes, like the artist behind Chun-Li's design.
He draws erotica for himself pretty much. It's his porn and we get the chance to play it occasionally.
Every year Kamitami does a piece of art work to celebrate the new year for their studio
You can see exactly what I'm talking about.
http://vanillaware.co.jp/gallery.htm (obviously NSFW)
Kamitami is known for his use of gothic, roman and classic japanese art style as well his exploitative use of the human form...most notably his female characters. He loves to use sexual imagery in pretty much every single pose. This is notable in Dragons crown, and Muramasa with many of the female characters. (take a look at his Metroid/Alien mashup for 2011 for an example of this)
Vanillware games also have very exploitative dialogue and characters to go along with their traits, meaning that when people try to explain away the art style as "That's just his art style" is being more than a bit untruthful as you can see here
The games are designed with sex, and sexual imagery in mind. You cant escape that fact when you play the games. So it's kind of hard to overlook that.
Im a fan of vanillaware, but Im not fooling myself when I play their games, I know this is pretty much just soft core porn with a combo meter.
He draws erotica for himself pretty much. It's his porn and we get the chance to play it occasionally.
Every year Kamitami does a piece of art work to celebrate the new year for their studio
You can see exactly what I'm talking about.
http://vanillaware.co.jp/gallery.htm (obviously NSFW)
Kamitami is known for his use of gothic, roman and classic japanese art style as well his exploitative use of the human form...most notably his female characters. He loves to use sexual imagery in pretty much every single pose. This is notable in Dragons crown, and Muramasa with many of the female characters. (take a look at his Metroid/Alien mashup for 2011 for an example of this)
Vanillware games also have very exploitative dialogue and characters to go along with their traits, meaning that when people try to explain away the art style as "That's just his art style" is being more than a bit untruthful as you can see here
The games are designed with sex, and sexual imagery in mind. You cant escape that fact when you play the games. So it's kind of hard to overlook that.
Im a fan of vanillaware, but Im not fooling myself when I play their games, I know this is pretty much just soft core porn with a combo meter.
I'm always quick in any thread to point out problems with female designs, particularly in Japanese games, and people just insult me and act like I'm a shit poster. It sucks man. This forum advocates progressiveness, but god forbid someone go into an OT about a Japanese game and speak ill of a woman who has boob windows and wears pumps in combat for some reason. I've been against this type of stuff for years, and you're right, it definitely does get lonely some times, as there just doesn't seem to be many of us at all.
I can understand because it is hard to have the thick skin not to go outside of the forum guidelines after looking at some of those posts
can't even look at a Nintendo Direct thread without seeing shit like this about female characters and when you do bother to say anything the dogpiling and ridicule commences, so yeah it's hardly surprising a lot of us stick to this thread
I still remember the great, "Actually, muteKi, Blue Lives MATTER!!!!!!!" debate
I tried it once out of curiosity in a quite corner.
Even if I would bite that cryosleep explanation, she could still wear a tanktop and shorts, couldn't she?
I mean, I thought to myself "That sounds interesting, lets have a closer look and maybe download the demo." And first screenshot I saw shows underwear - big sigh.
Even if I would bite that cryosleep explanation, she could still wear a tanktop and shorts, couldn't she?
I mean, I thought to myself "That sounds interesting, lets have a closer look and maybe download the demo." And first screenshot I saw shows underwear - big sigh.
I used to roll my eyes at GAF back before the news broke because every thread I'd see tended to favor concern about aspect ratio and resolution over theme, purpose, and human dignity. It's why I never made an account there.
Old habits die hard.
A lot of threads I feel like I'd just be talking into a void at best, and it takes me a long time to write posts in general, so I just feel why waste my time?
A lot of the time it feels like no one is even open to the idea of looking at things beyond the barest surface level, and so many people seem like they can only conceive of something as wholly good or wholly bad.
Bayonetta has very little control, as she is a videogame character who, on top of that, also is subject to not-her controlled camera movement. It's just the old Quiet defense.
I never understood why Bayonetta was supposedly a good example other than using her as a cudgel to dismiss criticism. And look how she's being used here.
This really isn't true. There are plenty of male characters that are frequently portrayed to have sex with lots of women. The medium is hardly "extremely prudish", it's very much not that. Videogames are crammed with sexuality. Or rather, service to straight male sexuality.
Games are only prudish when it comes to active female sexuality of any kind, which is usually dismissed and only ever used for titilation of a presumed male audience, never expression (outside a bioware game or two).
I'm sorry, but a medium that has Geralt get sex trading cards, that has Gangster dudes fuck and then kill prostitutes, that has various games of loserdude getting all the hot women *even in adventure games 20 years ago*, such a medium cannot be called extremely prudish. The very idea is just mind boggling to me.
People tend to be particularly forgiving of Bayo because she was designed by a woman, though having that one bit of nuance doesn't hold much against the constant waves of horniness that the series and the character are subjected to.
I just don't have the will, lost it a long time ago. It's a losing battle on a social media platform such as this largely made by and for men. (Not that I don't stir the pot in some community threads from time to time.)
I mean I love the dragons crown games, but It's pretty obvious that Kamitani loves loves loves loves to draw his women a "certain" way in pretty much every single piece of art work he's done. That is his style. But It's still just one of his fetishes, like the artist behind Chun-Li's design.
He draws erotica for himself pretty much. It's his porn and we get the chance to play it occasionally.
Every year Kamitami does a piece of art work to celebrate the new year for their studio
You can see exactly what I'm talking about.
http://vanillaware.co.jp/gallery.htm (obviously NSFW)
Kamitami is known for his use of gothic, roman and classic japanese art style as well his exploitative use of the human form...most notably his female characters. He loves to use sexual imagery in pretty much every single pose. This is notable in Dragons crown, and Muramasa with many of the female characters. (take a look at his Metroid/Alien mashup for 2011 for an example of this)
Vanillware games also have very exploitative dialogue and characters to go along with their traits, meaning that when people try to explain away the art style as "That's just his art style" is being more than a bit untruthful as you can see here
The games are designed with sex, and sexual imagery in mind. You cant escape that fact when you play the games. So it's kind of hard to overlook that.
Im a fan of vanillaware, but Im not fooling myself when I play their games, I know this is pretty much just soft core porn with a combo meter.
This is...a great post. I usually stay clear of Vanillaware discussion because on one hand, its indefensable sexist trash, on the other hand... I love the art. I'm sorry but I do. But its horribly sexist. But it's so pretty. Fuck >_<
I do agree that there is little discussion to be had about them, art wise. It's a case of "it is what it is" and you know exactly what you're going to get. When I say there is little discussion to be had is that its so blatant, it's impossible to see it as anything but soft-core porn. Much like the Magna Carta artist, I forget his name, or Joe Mad for the western crowd.
I used to be more active before (the other place) but that wasn't a good experience. Before it was guys not understanding and in the end (with the gamergate era) I was once misunderstood for being an alt-right/troll/whatever. That left a bitter taste about the whole experience. It didn't feel like I could identify with any group.
Years have passed since. I've become very busy which made me more of a lurker than before. Still, I will find threads to participate in from time to time. I just try not to get too involved or put too much effort. There are some periods where I can become more active (like now).
This thread has been a safe space and I'm content enough with how things are going.
I have honestly never really liked it when people say, "its not that we dislike women being sexualised, we'd like EVERYONE to be sexualised"
It's honestley really annoying cause it gives the idea that the general public-both men and women- can't like anything in videogames unless it's trying to make them horny. Maybe that is why i'm a bigger fan of nintendo games, they're very wholesome.
Anyways i really like the conrol leads design it's very calming.
It's honestley really annoying cause it gives the idea that the general public-both men and women- can't like anything in videogames unless it's trying to make them horny. Maybe that is why i'm a bigger fan of nintendo games, they're very wholesome.
Anyways i really like the conrol leads design it's very calming.
About the DC discussion. I agree with whoever said that the art is beautiful. The style has this painted feel to it. It's very unique and colourful. It's only very unfortunate that it's sexualised. Despite thinking it's beautiful, I try to avoid the game out of principle. Shame because I am very interested otherwise.
I don't know, but it sure is frustrating! I'd guess it's a, "rather than gamble for mainstream appeal let's at least get that guaranteed pervert money!" thing.
I have the game but still need to try it. That does help feeling less bad about missing out on DC. I have the other Vanillaware games on the vita too (also original versions on the ps2 and wii).
Though wasn't DC successful in terms of sales? Did it sell better than their other games?
Japan didn't ban the possession of child pornography until 2014 - but the ban doesn't stretch to anime, manga and video games because of fears it would curb "freedom of expression". Make of that what you will.
yeah that bad. There only been a few works that have expression of sexuality with youth but they at least stick to late teens. It explains the increase in very fan-service games over the years.
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It's better than a vast majority of gaming sites, but progressive? It has never been progressive.
That idiot being pedantic as fuck regarding the pronoun usage for they was an idiot. I can see the "appeal" of Dragons Crown's art, but I honestly think it's the worst looking game Kamitami has done. Muramasa leaned on the sexual at times as well, but it's actually a pretty game. The only character design I can stomach from either gender is honesty just the Elf's.
You'll come to learn that a lot of people are only "progressive" when it's convenient.
I dislike it because it's usually just used to deflect the discussion back to men.
It also leads to someone posting Voldo as an example, and n o p e .
The progressive veneer of this site peeled off pretty much immediately. It's (often) better than a lot of other gaming sites, but that particular bar is buried six feet underground.
Look I'm not gonna lie to y'all; I'm straight and if I see fanservice, I'ma go
...but after a while I'll be
I just don't stand fanservice much anymore and it makes me question the design.
Which reminds me, Y'shtola's zettai ryokai in FF14 is just dumb. Let her wear pants you nimrods....
...but after a while I'll be
I just don't stand fanservice much anymore and it makes me question the design.
Which reminds me, Y'shtola's zettai ryokai in FF14 is just dumb. Let her wear pants you nimrods....
Yeah.
It's not that Bayonetta is in control of her sexualization, but more that just the portrayal of her character is somewhat positive in a way that games like SC & DOA aren't AT ALL with the sexuality/personality of their female characters. Of course the argument that the game would be perfectly fine without all the sexy stuff is perfectly valid and I personally wouldn't protest if Bayonetta 3 did away with the overt sexualization & objectification altogether. But at least the Bayonetta games don't portray a woman's sexuality as something to be ashamed of or completely ignore it outside of offering men something to oggle at/pursue. Bayonetta isn't necessarily a whole lot better from a design POV (especially the whole hair-attire <-> nudity-during-hair-using-powers thing goes) but at least the sexuality is a part of her persona in a way that can be seen as positive, whereas Ivys & such are purely just eye candy with not even a hint of personality beneath that.
Of course no fictional character truly has any agency over these kinds of things, so the argument that she is totally in control of her sexuality can't really be true, but as far as these kinds of things can be handled/depicted in fiction & despite the problematic aspects, Bayonetta is portrayed & at least sometimes gives an illusion of her being in control and doing everything purely for herself and has a fun fuck-you attitude towards everyone who'd try to control her (in-universe, of course outside the context of the in-universe reality and adding all the leery framing & unnecessary nudity, it undermines that illusion). The same can't be really said about the sex dolls of DOA. It could be done a lot better but it could be done a whole lot worse. I guess Bayonetta comes down to whether you think such a fictional character can be done in a game and whether you think the unfortunate objectifying aspects of the game completely negate what could be argued to be positive aspects of her character.
+ Ivy's outfit is just totally nonsensical. Not that a ton of women IRL dress like Bayonetta, but at least it resembles (however remotely) something that an actual woman/person somewhere in the world might choose to wear.
I always find it awkward and baffling when I see people dismiss women's opinion as invalid when those women are saying "yeah, I like Bayo and I find her empowering and I relate to her and how she express sexuality". Like, ugh. Can we not walk on women's opinions about who and what feels empowering to them, maybe? I can understand criticism towards the character as it deserves some, but downright comparing her to Quiet is... absolute false equivalence, and I'm not here for this. I have yet to find women, feminists in particular, who have good things to say about Quiet.
Also, I guess we haven't been playing the same video games, because in the ones I've played, actual sexuality has never been a proper subject no matter who was the protagonist. However, it's indeed a bit difficult for me to play ALL video games in existence, and while I know there are some occurrences of that happening (the old God of War games for example), I clearly see it as being a niche rather than a dominant trend like you say it is. My experience is just very different from yours here, so I guess we'll have to settle at that.
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Hoo boy. Once you are through the tutorial at the start of the Code Vein demo your character awakens to a post-apocalyptic city, their head laying in the lap of a barely dressed woman. A steady breeze is blowing through the area causing this woman's clothing and hair to sway back and forth along with her breasts.
Sorry Delphine but I have to agree with Machachan that there is no prudishness with regards to expressions of (straight) male sexuality in games, even if we don't count all the instances of male gazey sexualization of women in games. Some of the most famous male protagonists are outright sex fiends (Duke Nukem, Kratos, Geralt, or hell even goofy shit like Leisure Suit Larry).
Dedicated male protagonists, from Nathan Drake to Guybrush Threepwood, routinely have (female) love interests and have or pursue romances with them, whereas dedicated female leads almost never do. Male characters in David Cage's games, various GTA games, Snake/Big Boss, and many others, have sexual encounters. I don't think I've ever seen a dedicated female protagonist have a sexual encounter in a game outside of Fear Effect 2*.
I would say that Duke Nukem, God of War, The Witcher, Metal Gear Solid, Heavy Rain, GTA are... hardly "niche" games. :P
* A lot of that is due to some apparent phobia to having male characters presented as love interests (outside of niche otome games of course). Remember Me's protagonist was intended to have a boyfriend and even have a kissing scene, but the publisher asked Dontnod to remove it because male players would feel icky playing a woman kissing a man. Alexios/Kassandra in AssCreed Odyssey have up to 10 potential female love interests, and only 5 male ones, most of which were complete throwaways.
Dedicated male protagonists, from Nathan Drake to Guybrush Threepwood, routinely have (female) love interests and have or pursue romances with them, whereas dedicated female leads almost never do. Male characters in David Cage's games, various GTA games, Snake/Big Boss, and many others, have sexual encounters. I don't think I've ever seen a dedicated female protagonist have a sexual encounter in a game outside of Fear Effect 2*.
I would say that Duke Nukem, God of War, The Witcher, Metal Gear Solid, Heavy Rain, GTA are... hardly "niche" games. :P
* A lot of that is due to some apparent phobia to having male characters presented as love interests (outside of niche otome games of course). Remember Me's protagonist was intended to have a boyfriend and even have a kissing scene, but the publisher asked Dontnod to remove it because male players would feel icky playing a woman kissing a man. Alexios/Kassandra in AssCreed Odyssey have up to 10 potential female love interests, and only 5 male ones, most of which were complete throwaways.
The worst part is that whenever someone questions the political inclination of most posters here on the site, there will always come an asshole saying "lol, you're crazy dude, era is definitely left leaning", sigh.
The Quiet character is a example of using some sort of reasoning for a character's outfit is an excuse for titillation.
DC is, by a wide margin, Vanillaware's most visually boring game (save for 13 sentinels which is going for something specific).
AKA people that only care about ethics when it comes to Epic Games Store policies
More like, "I don't care, as long as I get to play the video game".
I think a big reason why the gaming medium feels slower to adapt to more mature and diverse storytelling is because of the price entry point. AAA games are $60 and consoles, well, you know how expensive those get. Meanwhile movies and TV shows can expand much easier because all you need is a movie ticket or a Netflix account, essentially. (This is a large part why mobile gaming is so popular with women.)
So game companies are trying to expand the demographics but also are afraid of alienating off their dedicated consumers because these days if a big budget game sells less than 3-5 million it's a flop. (Only a slight exaggeration.)
I've never really found fanservice in non-erotic media like... meaningful or appealing. If I wanted to be titillated, there are 100000000 ways to scratch that itch outside of playing a video game. It usually feels like the developers think I'm an idiot who would be bored by their game unless a woman is running around half naked.
Though I can deal with sexy outfits most of the time, it's when the characters are wearing the sexy outfits and acting all submissive and meek it becomes this disturbing subjugating-women-to-uncomfortable-situations fantasy and I just feel embarrassed for everyone involved.
Like people losing their shit over Tifa not having balloon breasts anymore. Guys. There's been millions of pictures of Tifa more to your liking on the internet for the last 22 years. Are you really going to play the FF7 remake with a hand down your pants? Are we so insatiably horny that all of our media needs to titillate us all the time?
So game companies are trying to expand the demographics but also are afraid of alienating off their dedicated consumers because these days if a big budget game sells less than 3-5 million it's a flop. (Only a slight exaggeration.)
Look I'm not gonna lie to y'all; I'm straight and if I see fanservice, I'ma go
...but after a while I'll be
I just don't stand fanservice much anymore and it makes me question the design.
Which reminds me, Y'shtola's zettai ryokai in FF14 is just dumb. Let her wear pants you nimrods....
I've never really found fanservice in non-erotic media like... meaningful or appealing. If I wanted to be titillated, there are 100000000 ways to scratch that itch outside of playing a video game. It usually feels like the developers think I'm an idiot who would be bored by their game unless a woman is running around half naked.
Though I can deal with sexy outfits most of the time, it's when the characters are wearing the sexy outfits and acting all submissive and meek it becomes this disturbing subjugating-women-to-uncomfortable-situations fantasy and I just feel embarrassed for everyone involved.
Like people losing their shit over Tifa not having balloon breasts anymore. Guys. There's been millions of pictures of Tifa more to your liking on the internet for the last 22 years. Are you really going to play the FF7 remake with a hand down your pants? Are we so insatiably horny that all of our media needs to titillate us all the time?
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