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amanset

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,577
Hoping this hold true in the long run, and isn't a statistical blip for a few days.

And to say Sweden is doing nothing just confuses the hell out of me, largest single employer in the Västra Götaland region is shut down, tons of people are working from home. Restaurants and hotels are firing or giving notice to all/most staff, that's not something they'd do if people were spending their time in restaurants or traveling as normal.
I'd say in the case of hotels/travel, the after-ski/vacationing for sportlov things popping in the news are the anomalies, not the standard.

Yeah, I can, and have been, super critical but it isn't that they are doing nothing. It is more that the are lagging behind. Sweden has kind of followed the model of a lot of other European countries, just a couple of weeks later. And this personally got to me as, like I have said a few times, I am in a risk group but had to keep using Stockholm's packed public transport to get to work when I work for a company that was not only set up already for remote working but entirely consisted of people that could work from home. But as Folkhälsomyndigheten declared we can all work I had to sit and get coughed at, breathed on and whatnot for ages when people in other countries were already working from home.
 

Paganmoon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,586
when I work for a company that was not only set up already for remote working but entirely consisted of people that could work from home. But as Folkhälsomyndigheten declared we can all work I had to sit and get coughed at, breathed on and whatnot for ages when people in other countries were already working from home.
Isn't this totally on your company and little to do with FHM? FHM's recommendation is if you can work from home, you should do so. If your company does not allow for it, but has the ability to, that's totally on the company.
My company sent my whole team to WFH since 11:th of March, wasn't even a discussion. Went as far to say that if people needed to setup full desk at home (Docking station, dual monitors etc), they could pack their things and take a taxi home, paid by the company.

Or am I misunderstanding that your company is not set up for it?
 

pretzel

Alt Account
Banned
Nov 9, 2019
159
Germany
Ten times the land mass of the Netherlands with half the population. What we label as social distancing is probably the norm for most Swedes.
 

amanset

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,577
Isn't this totally on your company and little to do with FHM? FHM's recommendation is if you can work from home, you should do so. If your company does not allow for it, but has the ability to, that's totally on the company.
My company sent my whole team to WFH since 11:th of March, wasn't even a discussion. Went as far to say that if people needed to setup full desk at home (Docking station, dual monitors etc), they could pack their things and take a taxi home, paid by the company.

Or am I misunderstanding that your company is not set up for it?

Nope. I have been working from home for two weeks. When we started FHM's advice was not to work from home. They were still happily saying only people showing symptoms should be at home, everyone else can go out as normal.

The advice to work from home if possible came on March 16th. You can see that on the timeline on this page:


As I said, the company I work for, despite being completely set up for working from home (I am a game developer), consistently told us that they were following Folkhälsomyndigheten's advice.
 

Paganmoon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,586
Nope. I have been working from home for two weeks. When we started FHM's advice was not to work from home. They were still happily saying only people showing symptoms should be at home, everyone else can go out as normal.

The advice to work from home if possible came on March 16th. You can see that on the timeline on this page:

hmm, then my company was super early, considering we were sent home 5 days prior to that, again I'd put it on your employer. If you're set up to be able to work from home, there really was no reason to say no before the 16:th.

But I can see your point, FHM could've gone out with their recommendations earlier, and be more direct in them, but companies were already reacting prior to it.
 

amanset

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,577
hmm, then my company was super early, considering we were sent home 5 days prior to that, again I'd put it on your employer. If you're set up to be able to work from home, there really was no reason to say no before the 16:th.

But I can see your point, FHM could've gone out with their recommendations earlier, and be more direct in them, but companies were already reacting prior to it.

To be honest, they were on the verge of an employee revolt. We all knew that others in the industry were working from home and on the last Friday (they told us over the weekend that they were closing the office) it felt like half the office didn't turn up and no one seemed to do any work, just collectively discussing and panicking.

But yes, FHM could and should have put it out there as an idea.
 

JoRu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,812
Ten times the land mass of the Netherlands with half the population. What we label as social distancing is probably the norm for most Swedes.

90% of the population is situated in the lower 40% of the country, so a bit misleading.

But yes, social distancing comes a bit more naturally culturally to Swedes compared to say Italy.
 

amanset

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,577
90% of the population is situated in the lower 40% of the country, so a bit misleading.

But yes, social distancing comes a bit more naturally culturally to Swedes compared to say Italy.


As I've said before, I disagree with this. As an example, the amount of hugging that goes on here takes a LOT of getting used to.
 

amanset

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,577
We're probably going to see the numbers for today and yesterday be revised upwards since numbers aren't always reported during the weekend. But yes, for now, we're at the very least not seeing any evidence of exponential growth.

And it appears that is exactly what has happened. Big increase in deaths today, the biggest daily increase (I think), up to 146 (increase of 36) but DN reports this:

Det kan se ut som ett stort hopp, men det beror på att det varit helg och fall inte har registrerats, säger Anders Tegnell om kurvan.
 

hidys

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
1,795
There is something that has been going through my head that I just have to get out there.
I'm Australian. Both Sweden and Australia have a similar number of confirmed cases (Sweden 4028 vs Australia 4250).

Australia is about 2.5 times the population of Sweden that should be concerning enough but what troubles me is the current death rate (Australia 18 vs Sweden 146). That's really alarming and suggests something is about to go very wrong.

Happy for someone to tell me what I'm missing.
 

JoRu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,812
There is something that has been going through my head that I just have to get out there.
I'm Australian. Both Sweden and Australia have a similar number of confirmed cases (Sweden 4028 vs Australia 4250).

Australia is about 2.5 times the population of Sweden that should be concerning enough but what troubles me is the current death rate (Australia 18 vs Sweden 146). That's really alarming and suggests something is about to go very wrong.

Happy for someone to tell me what I'm missing.

You're missing that different countries are in different phases of their respective epidemics, and that the volume of tests and method (who is being tested) can differ a lot between countries. Sweden could end being more affected than Australia, but you can't draw any conclusions about anything right now.
 

Enkidu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
186
And it appears that is exactly what has happened. Big increase in deaths today, the biggest daily increase (I think), up to 146 (increase of 36) but DN reports this:
I don't know where to access this data, but this is the graph they showed during their press conference:
2pDYGXN.png

So as they say, it doesn't look quite as bad when spread out over several days.
 

Nivash

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,467
And it appears that is exactly what has happened. Big increase in deaths today, the biggest daily increase (I think), up to 146 (increase of 36) but DN reports this:

It's definitely the largest increase yet. The odd thing is that ICU registration numbers are still a bit lower than at the end of last week.

There are some distressing reports that a large number of old folks homes and care facilities have gotten hit. That could explain the disrepency seeing as residents wouldn't be ICU candidates but are also the most likely to die from an infection. There are 3 homes hit in my area with one death and at least one more on the way.
 

amanset

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,577
It's definitely the largest increase yet. The odd thing is that ICU registration numbers are still a bit lower than at the end of last week.

There are some distressing reports that a large number of old folks homes and care facilities have gotten hit. That could explain the disrepency seeing as residents wouldn't be ICU candidates but are also the most likely to die from an infection. There are 3 homes hit in my area with one death and at least one more on the way.

Shit, that's the fear. Fingers crossed and thumbs held for the best.
 

Ragnar

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,356
It's definitely the largest increase yet. The odd thing is that ICU registration numbers are still a bit lower than at the end of last week.
Seeing as how we've had some disagreements in this thread previously, I'm genuinely interested in your take on this. (Can I say that without sounding sarcastic? Well, I'm not. I would honestly appreciate your viewpoint). It's a quote from Taha Alexandersson of Socialstyrelsen:

Antalet svenskar som läggs in på sjukhus och får intensivvård på grund av covid-19 fortsätter att öka. För att minska risken för att förvärra läget kommer Socialstyrelsen med ett annorlunda önskemål.

- Utifrån de dagliga bedömningar vi gör vill vi vädja till alla som kan avstå från resor i påsk att göra så. Många vill ha uppmaningar, men vi jobbar inte så, säger Taha Alexandersson, ställföreträdande krisberedskapschef på Socialstyrelsen.

Detta eftersom sjukvården i varje region är dimensionerad efter sin egen befolkning, inte sin egen befolkning plus en massa tillresta.

- Vi vädjar om att man inte ska belasta vården ytterligare, säger hon.

This is one of those things that have been on my mind (as you know). Even in the unlikely case that the people who travel from the major urban regions to more rural areas were to practice strict social distancing, most people will probably still fall ill at one point or another during this pandemic. The healthcare system in the municipality where you're nationally registered and therefore pay taxes, is the municipality which is adapted to your presence. Obviously I'm not saying that a person who breaks their leg when they're cleaning out the rain gutters on their summer cottage has to go back to Stockholm where their tax money contributes to the health care system, pronto. Naturally they should be treated at the nearest suitable location. But that's something unforeseen and relatively small-scale, and accidents and minor illnesses among vacationers can usually be accommodated for by the health care system. What we're talking about now is a predictable, avoidable strain on municipalities which are not adapted to it.
 

Nivash

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,467
Seeing as how we've had some disagreements in this thread previously, I'm genuinely interested in your take on this. (Can I say that without sounding sarcastic? Well, I'm not. I would honestly appreciate your viewpoint). It's a quote from Taha Alexandersson of Socialstyrelsen:



This is one of those things that have been on my mind (as you know). Even in the unlikely case that the people who travel from the major urban regions to more rural areas were to practice strict social distancing, most people will probably still fall ill at one point or another during this pandemic. The healthcare system in the municipality where you're nationally registered and therefore pay taxes, is the municipality which is adapted to your presence. Obviously I'm not saying that a person who breaks their leg when they're cleaning out the rain gutters on their summer cottage has to go back to Stockholm where their tax money contributes to the health care system, pronto. Naturally they should be treated at the nearest suitable location. But that's something unforeseen and relatively small-scale, and accidents and minor illnesses among vacationers can usually be accommodated for by the health care system. What we're talking about now is a predictable, avoidable strain on municipalities which are not adapted to it.

I mean sure, the principle is sound. If a large number of Stockholmers leave for other places and end up getting sick it could stress local systems. I'm just unconvinced that it's going to outweigh the possibility of Stockholm suffering less stress as a result or the possibility that the type of social isolation it represents doesn't meaningfully lower national transmission rates.

For clarification I'm arguing for nuance, not policy. If you ask me to pick a policy I'd actually lean towards people not moving around because the outcome is more predictable. But I don't think the choice is clear cut about what would actually be the best in the end.
 

amanset

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,577
There are some distressing reports that a large number of old folks homes and care facilities have gotten hit. That could explain the disrepency seeing as residents wouldn't be ICU candidates but are also the most likely to die from an infection. There are 3 homes hit in my area with one death and at least one more on the way.

And they have just announced that from tomorrow there is a ban on visiting them.
 

Ragnar

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,356
I mean sure, the principle is sound. If a large number of Stockholmers leave for other places and end up getting sick it could stress local systems. I'm just unconvinced that it's going to outweigh the possibility of Stockholm suffering less stress as a result or the possibility that the type of social isolation it represents doesn't meaningfully lower national transmission rates.

For clarification I'm arguing for nuance, not policy. If you ask me to pick a policy I'd actually lean towards people not moving around because the outcome is more predictable. But I don't think the choice is clear cut about what would actually be the best in the end.
I appreciate your take on it. Let's see how it shakes out.

On a more personal note, an acquaintance of mine who works as a pilot mainly out of Kastrup airport contracted COVID-19 a while back. He's 32 years old, and as far as I know he had no known underlying risk factors. It was pretty serious, to the point that he's been in and out of the hospital three times now, and there was some talk about it maybe leaving some permanent damage.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,128
Just got an SMS from my dentist reminding me I have an appointment on Friday and that I should move it if I have cold like symptoms. I would have thought they would cancel most dentist appointments.
 

amanset

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,577
Just got an SMS from my dentist reminding me I have an appointment on Friday and that I should move it if I have cold like symptoms. I would have thought they would cancel most dentist appointments.

Is it a Folktandvården? I thought those had all closed. I was at my dentist on Friday as, unfortunately, this all went down as I was in the middle of a root canal operation, which then got infected, formed an abscess and then needed extracting. It got pretty badly infected and I was given a list of symptoms that if I got any of which I had to go directly to Akuten. Kind of freaked me out a bit.

So we chatted about this anyway. It isn't a Folktandvården, but he said that those were closing and most places, including him, were seeing emergency patients only. Apparently his practice would normally have about 35 patients in a day and on Friday they had 18. Only the dentists and nurses were there, due to the lower number of patients they could cover the reception and suchlike duties as well.

Are you in Stockholm? Maybe this is only a Stockholm thing?
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,128
Is it a Folktandvården? I thought those had all closed. I was at my dentist on Friday as, unfortunately, this all went down as I was in the middle of a root canal operation, which then got infected, formed an abscess and then needed extracting. It got pretty badly infected and I was given a list of symptoms that if I got any of which I had to go directly to Akuten. Kind of freaked me out a bit.

So we chatted about this anyway. It isn't a Folktandvården, but he said that those were closing and most places, including him, were seeing emergency patients only. Apparently his practice would normally have about 35 patients in a day and on Friday they had 18. Only the dentists and nurses were there, due to the lower number of patients they could cover the reception and suchlike duties as well.

Are you in Stockholm? Maybe this is only a Stockholm thing?
Folktandvarden but in Gothenburg. What you said is more or less what I thought would happen (only open for emergencies).
 

amanset

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,577
Folktandvarden but in Gothenburg. What you said is more or less what I thought would happen (only open for emergencies).

Yeah. Folktandvården Stockholm's website has this in a red banner at the top:

Vi har tillfälligt begränsat vår verksamhet och erbjuder nu enbart akuttandvård. Detta för att hjälpa sjukvården och minska den stora materialbrist som covid-19 orsakar. Har du en bokad tid kontaktar vi dig för att boka om den

Whereas Folktandvården Västra Götaland's has this:

Information om coronavirusinfektion covid-19: Har du förkylningssymtom? Undvik nära kontakt med andra människor och besök inte våra kliniker. Boka istället om din tid. Just nu ser vi helst att du kommer ensam, men har du behov av assistans ska den som följer med också vara fri från förkylningssymtom. Har du frågor som rör ombokning eller kommande tid, vänligen kontakta din klinik.
 

ZeldaGalaxy94

The Fallen
Nov 6, 2017
2,577
Sweden
Just got an SMS from my dentist reminding me I have an appointment on Friday and that I should move it if I have cold like symptoms. I would have thought they would cancel most dentist appointments.
And I got a heart (care) appointment for monday.
the only problem is that I ALWAYS have an assistant with me (I am disable) and the appointment sad "no relative, because of Corona"
let's hope they don't kick me out
 

Andrin

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 11, 2017
258
And I got a heart (care) appointment for monday.
the only problem is that I ALWAYS have an assistant with me (I am disable) and the appointment sad "no relative, because of Corona"
let's hope they don't kick me out

Assistants that you require due to disability are exempt from bans as far as I know.
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
60,686
Just so you Swedes know, many American right-wing outlets are citing the Swedish way as justification for getting back to work btw.

These dumb mofos.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,128
Yeah, moved my appointment by 2 weeks (I guess I will delay it even more when things get there, but lets hope it is not necessary).

And I got a heart (care) appointment for monday.
the only problem is that I ALWAYS have an assistant with me (I am disable) and the appointment sad "no relative, because of Corona"
let's hope they don't kick me out
I think they will still allow an assistant. Regardless, you should go to that appointment as it is something serious, but take care man.
 

Sanka

Banned
Feb 17, 2019
5,778
Hm, this is kinda schocking to me. Always thought sweden would be one of the most level headed in situations like these. Hopefully it works out for them. Japan seems to take a similar approach.
 

Herr Starr

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,274
Norway
Looks like the other shoe has dropped for Sweden, sadly. As a Norwegian, I've been paying close attention to both Sweden's and Norway's numbers over these past few weeks, especially in light of our radically different approaches to the Corona virus. Sweden's approach appeared atrociously naive, but there was always the chance that they could be right. Norway's and Sweden's numbers haven't been that different for most of this period, so it could have gone either way, at least in theory.

These last few days have revealed the folly of that hope, however. There's no doubt in my mind that Sweden's approach has failed dramatically at this point. I can only hope that the death rate can be kept as low as possible through the weeks to come.
 

Nivash

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,467
It's problematic but expected that the number of deaths are rising. We're still in the early, accelerating phase along with most of Europe. It's also important to remember to not place too much emphasis on day to day numbers because they're still small enough to be mayorly affected by random factors. For instance, this isn't the number of deaths since yesterday, it's the reported number, a lot of them happened earlier during the weekend and didn't get reported until yesterday.

It's also rather meaningless to make comparisons with other nations. A few days or a week's difference of where in the outbreak a nation is makes a huge difference. So for instance Herr Starr, it's true that Norway is doing better at the moment. But Belgium, which has a similar population size to Sweden, has over three times as many deaths despite more extensive quarantine efforts. And Denmark still maintains a roughly comparable death per capita to Sweden despite also having a more extensive quarantine.

Quarantines in general have a poor historic track record. No one should feel safe until they either have heard immunity or a vaccine is ready. Any country could see their rates increase at any time.
 

kiriku

Member
Oct 27, 2017
947
It's problematic but expected that the number of deaths are rising. We're still in the early, accelerating phase along with most of Europe. It's also important to remember to not place too much emphasis on day to day numbers because they're still small enough to be mayorly affected by random factors. For instance, this isn't the number of deaths since yesterday, it's the reported number, a lot of them happened earlier during the weekend and didn't get reported until yesterday.

It's also rather meaningless to make comparisons with other nations. A few days or a week's difference of where in the outbreak a nation is makes a huge difference. So for instance Herr Starr, it's true that Norway is doing better at the moment. But Belgium, which has a similar population size to Sweden, has over three times as many deaths despite more extensive quarantine efforts. And Denmark still maintains a roughly comparable death per capita to Sweden despite also having a more extensive quarantine.

Quarantines in general have a poor historic track record. No one should feel safe until they either have heard immunity or a vaccine is ready. Any country could see their rates increase at any time.

Tegnell actually talked about this (my quick translation):
- We are very close to Denmark, but Finland and Norway have lower numbers. All of these countries are clearly in different stages of this development. Finland is definitely a few weeks after Sweden. Norway looks a little different, mainly because the infection has been spreading in slightly different age groups than in Sweden, so far. We'll see how it ends, but there are explanations for why it looks like it does right now.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,191
Hm, this is kinda schocking to me. Always thought sweden would be one of the most level headed in situations like these. Hopefully it works out for them. Japan seems to take a similar approach.
Japan at least has one the of the most equipped healthcare care systems to deal with a not so great scenario so I could sorta understand it as the deaths haven't spiraled it but really this is a sort of disease where you'd want to err on a side of caution rather than not.
 

GCX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
484
It's also rather meaningless to make comparisons with other nations. A few days or a week's difference of where in the outbreak a nation is makes a huge difference. So for instance Herr Starr, it's true that Norway is doing better at the moment. But Belgium, which has a similar population size to Sweden, has over three times as many deaths despite more extensive quarantine efforts. And Denmark still maintains a roughly comparable death per capita to Sweden despite also having a more extensive quarantine.
Social distancing and locksdown efforts don't really show their full effects instantly but in long term they can dramatically change the trajectory. The situation in Denmark and Sweden for example may not look so different now but we'll see in a few months how things develop and how effective the current efforts are.
 

Deleted member 31104

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 5, 2017
2,572
There's an argument that the timing of the lockdown is the most important thing, too soon and the compliance fractures (starting to see some discontent in Italy), too late and well you've get the spread get to the point where you've condemned a bunch of folk to die and broken your healthcare system. I wouldn't want to be having to make that calculation.
 

Kapten

Avenger
Nov 1, 2017
1,448
And asked about the comparisons in deaths between Sweden and the other nordic countries, Tegnell just goes "Yeah, it differs. There are explenations. But we'll see in the end how it turns out."

Jesus that fuckface. How and fucking why is he still employed?
 

karnage10

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,547
Portugal
It's definitely the largest increase yet. The odd thing is that ICU registration numbers are still a bit lower than at the end of last week.

There are some distressing reports that a large number of old folks homes and care facilities have gotten hit. That could explain the disrepency seeing as residents wouldn't be ICU candidates but are also the most likely to die from an infection. There are 3 homes hit in my area with one death and at least one more on the way.
Is the bolded and underlined real? just because people are in elderly care facilities they aren't ICU candidates?