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skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,184
To be honest, there hasn't been a good HD FF game. (Not counting A Realm Reborn which isn't a traditional RPG)

wouldn't go as far to say there was no good HD game but they did kind of lose the script after the PS1 era. FFX pretty obvious they were veering towards a younger audience and ever since they kind of got lost in the woods with scope and vision. meanwhile RPGs became mainstream enough to where other big budget RPGs not named Final Fantasy could thrive, other games succeeded at telling epic cinematic stories, ect

FFXV in spite of all its problems made some strides to bring the old greatness back. didn't work out but if they can get their shit together in terms of development pipeline i'm hopeful for FFXVI and beyond
 

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,550
I platinumed Zodiac Age, the XIII trilogy, Type-0, World of FF, and XV so i have a hard time relating, i don't even care about their most successful games (XI, XIV, Brave Exvius). The only issue is they take too long between entries, especially mainline entries.
 

Naphu

Member
Apr 6, 2018
729
They became slaves to their weird j-pop aesthetic. Remember how they forced Matsuno to switch main characters in FFXII because they're deathly afraid of not appealing to what they imagine teenagers want? Imagine trying to create a fantasy epic with that kind of decision making. Awful corporate minded suits in charge.

They also used to release a new mainline game pretty much every year instead of the better part of a decade like modern S-E. That was wild.

FFX - Really lame characters - especially Titus. Completely abandoned free exploring world map.

FFXIII - Almost everything, and then deciding to keep doing that for the rest of the decade with sequels.

FFXV - No towers to climb to fill in map markers. He could have used his ghost sword. Missed opportunity.
 

Hieroph

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,995
It's Final Fantasy 13. That trilogy was such a mess, it's a genuine surprise Final Fantasy 15 turned out so well. But now we still need Final Fantasy 16 to also be good for the series to recover from the damage FF13 did.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,297
I mean, I get the point but sales wise the series is as healthy as ever. Final Fantasy might not be considered to be in its prime anymore by some, but I wonder how much of that has to do with poor production rather than an inability for Square to still create genre defining content? I mean you state that you felt X was the culmination and peak of everyting in the series but many even jumped off with that entry. Add to that the fact from FFI through X there was a mainline single player entry at least every two years to the more protracted 5 years between X and XII, 4 years between XII and XIII, and 6 years between XIII and XV, there hasn't actually been many single player mainline titles since X. None of the entries have been of a 'bad' quality despite the significant split between the fan base for each. XIII was too linear without the payoff in storytelling, and XV felt incomplete in areas but had a lot of potential in other areas to expand. There is also the argument by some the Royal edition content and updates should have been in from the start. But both games reviewed well on release: FFXV with an 81 MC Critics' score and a still respectable 7.6 user score on a website known for games being constanty review bombed by users. FFXIII has an 83 MC Critics' score and a mediocre but still better than many on MC user score of 7.3 (even if MC and user scores don't tell the whole story). Fundamentally, the series hasn't suddenly lost its mane overall as the series stll produces games which are spoken about and sell, it is also still the biggest JRPG franchise in the world. Perhaps that mane isn't quite as luscious anymore but it is still intact.
 
Oct 26, 2017
9,859
Decades ago Final Fantasy was a bigger IP, by far the biggest role playing series of all time, but starting from the ps3 era, the decline happened, mostly thanks to FF13.

FF was surpassed by Fallout, The Elder Scrolls and even The Witcher in sales, critical acclaim and success, selling 9 million copies while the big RPGs are selling in the 15-30 million range is a poor showing,. It's still the biggest JRPG out there, but it's not a like accomplishment when only Square Enix is making AAA JRPGs.
 

rochellepaws

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,453
Ireland
I suppose the nature of a golden era is in it not lasting forever.

Maybe the games from I to V along with the HD era should be viewed as Square's level since it makes up the bulk of their work and the question to ask instead is what crazy magic was going on in the company between 1994 and 2001 to not only create VI - X but also Chrono Trigger, Xenogears and Final Fantasy Tactics.
 

Bjones

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,622
Because if two things

1. they went full on school anime steam punk after FF7

2. The amount of time and budget they would need to match FF6 in today's technology/ expectations would be tremendous.
 

MoonFrog

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,969
FFVII keeps getting praised because it was a genre-defining game that came out at the exact right time, similar to Super Mario 64.

Its actual amount of content isn't even THAT vast, it's a fairly short game overall. But people will always view it nostalgically anyway because of when it came out and what it did for the genre.

JRPGs are no longer nearly as important to gaming as a whole so they don't stand out nearly as much as VII did when it was the game to own on PS1 the year it came out.
At a time when JRPG was not that important to gaming outside Japan...FF7 made western gaming care. You can't talk this line without acknowledging that the place of FF in gaming is historically a horse before the JRPG cart...which it isn't anymore.
 

Acetown

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,297
I've written about this multiple times before but Yoshinori Kitase basically put the finger right on problem in an interview back in 2011 while dismissing the possibility of a Final Fantasy VII remake:
Yoshinori Kitase said:
"In the transition between XIII to XIII-2, it was quite easy because obviously we kept all the data and the engine – we had just finished using them so it was almost like they hadn't gone cold. The technology was already warm and ready to use, so it was quite good. Also within the team, we still had a feel for the game, it was still new to us, still lingering with us, so we were ready to move on to the sequel.
"But if we were to take one of the past Final Fantasy titles and make a sequel to it, I think that would be a lot more challenging because when they were on PlayStation and PlayStation 2 their actual game volume was a lot bigger, kind of.
"Graphically they weren't as advanced as they are now, but there were lots of towns and worlds and cities and whatever. So if we were to recreate the same kind of game – sequel or not – with the same volume, but give it a much higher level of graphical quality, it would us take three times, four times, even ten times longer to make such a game. So making a sequel for an old game would be a lot more challenging."
Source

Rising standards in presentation (not just graphics, but also things like voice acting) has forced Square down a road where they have to water down the experience and then stretch out whatever's left. Like Final Fantasy XIII which reduced the essence of the franchise to a mind-numbing series of battles with one or two cutscenes here and there.
I'm sure you could list all sorts of other issues related to creative leads and whatnot but they're secondary to the volume problem.

Its actual amount of content isn't even THAT vast, it's a fairly short game overall.

Playtime is relative. Final Fantasy VII seems vast because it's packed. The Midgar segment alone probably accomplished more than the entirety of Final Fantasy XV, lol. I can't recall if anything particularly memorable happened before the big fight against the Archean.
 
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Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,866
The discounting of FFXIV that this forum occasionally does to to fit a narrative is funny.
It has only ever been about validating their favourite FF. Which is why FFXI and XIV doesn't count, which is why FFXII's 92 meta doesn't count, which is why FF10 is « keeping with traditions » when it was the biggest leap in the series while Sakaguchi was doing backflips on his surfboard in Honolulu.

It's just about them reinforcing why their FF is the best and they haven't moved on in 20 whole ass years
 

MoonFrog

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,969
It has only ever been about validating their favourite FF. Which is why FFXI and XIV doesn't count, which is why FFXII's 92 meta doesn't count, which is why FF10 is « keeping with traditions » when it was the biggest leap in the series while Sakaguchi was doing backflips on his surfboard in Honolulu.

It's just about them reinforcing why their FF is the best and they haven't moved on in 20 whole ass years

It's not. Final Fantasy as a series does not have the regular quality nor cache it once had. This is true even not discounting FFXIV.
 

Croc Man

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,546
I think whatever single element of final fantasy drew an individual into the series is now better provided elsewhere.

As already mentioned providing them all at once in a modern single game is technologically unfeasible. So no matter what they release a portion of the potential fanbase won't be happy.
 

ScOULaris

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,634
I accredit the loss of the magic largely to the introduction of voice acting in the series. A lot more can be inferred about character through text than when they're acted. Even the most insufferable, edgelord characters are more tolerable in text boxes when compared with just about any VA'd FF character.
This is the biggest factor, IMO.
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,866
It's not. Final Fantasy as a series does not have the regular quality nor cache it once had. This is true even not discounting FFXIV.

There was nothing Final Fantasy could do when most fans couldn't give a flying fuck about what the series offered and only wanted the FF7 Remake to happen since at least the tech demo in 2005. It can't compete with nostalgia, it can't compete with a company that has offered decades of fan-service just to line up their pockets.

Even in the eventuality of great Final Fantasy games releasing, the game simply wouldn't a stand chance with how people enshrines their favourite FF. And it's true, great FF games were released and now they're discounted because they want the quality, the hype and the sense of wonder they had when they were 12.

The only conclusion left is to have these folks slowly dripping off the series and find a new generation of players that are more accepting of the series rather than putting hard limits on where the series was great and everything after fell off a cliff, especially when the limit is as nonsensical as FF10. It's been 20 years, you'd think they moved on by now.
 

BlueManifest

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,336
FF had a slump during the PS3 era but it has come back almost full force maybe even stronger looking at how much revenue the series producing with FFXIV and the spinoffs, remasters, etc. FFXV sold really well too despite being a bad game.


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Phantom

Writer at Jeux.ca
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,446
Canada
If Dragon Quest does not have to change, then why does FF needs to? Like it or not, turn-based battles are part of the series' DNA. FFXV feels wrong because they changed the formula too much while applying Western game design philosophies.
 

Conrad Link

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,659
New Zealand
With XIII and XV I look at it like they don't even know what type of game they're trying to make any more. Things are a mess.

They lost their way trying to create something that 'appeals to blah blah' audience and will become some giant success instead of just making a good game to begin with then building from there.

As a huge FF fan I get so frustrated at what the series has turned into, and look at DQ with such jealous eyes because they get the fancy new games but are allowed to still be themselves.
 

MoonFrog

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,969
There was nothing Final Fantasy could do when most fans couldn't give a flying fuck about what the series offered and only wanted the FF7 Remake to happen since at least the tech demo in 2005. It can't compete with nostalgia, it can't compete with a company that has offered decades of fan-service just to line up their pockets.

Even in the eventuality of great Final Fantasy games releasing, the game simply wouldn't a stand chance with how people enshrines their favourite FF. And it's true, great FF games were released and now they're discounted because they want the quality, the hype and the sense of wonder they had when they were 12.

The only conclusion left is to have these folks slowly dripping off the series and find a new generation of players that are more accepting of the series rather than putting hard limits on where the series was great and everything after fell off a cliff, especially when the limit is as nonsensical as FF10. It's been 20 years, you'd think they moved on by now.
I mean, personally, I did not want FF7 remake. The reason I drifted from Final Fantasy is repeated games that disappointed me or did not appeal to me. That isn't solely on me. I wasn't impossible to please. I wasn't married to a previous game and FF wasn't THE RPG series to me--I anticipated the future, until I did not any longer because I was given no reason. You can't put it all off on fans' psychology.

Any series always needs to be taking in new fans to stay relevant in both enthusiast and general consumer markets. It is not like FF has been a stodgy series taking no new directions and only appealing to old fans. What you are saying it should be doing is what it is already trying to do. FF seems to be doing okay in the general market in the west but it has not found a new critical base at all commensurate to what it once had. This supports the thesis of the thread.

And this is sad. It held down a position in the JRPG catalog that is sorely missing at this point.
 
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fireflame

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,275
If Dragon Quest does not have to change, then why does FF needs to? Like it or not, turn-based battles are part of the series' DNA. FFXV feels wrong because they changed the formula too much while applying Western game design philosophies.
I think turn per turn can stay with improvements overall. I like how it is made in smt games where you can earn bonus turns by exploiting enemy'sweakness
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,065
With FFVI and FFVII the series became synonymous with vast, multi-threaded stories. They haven't been able to balance stories on that scale with game design since the PS1 era. FFX sacrificed subplots and freedom to become more cinematic. FFXII had to rush its story given the size of its world. FFXIII went even more linear. FFXV went open world which requires a more intimate, focused story.

They need to sit back and work out a new type of storytelling which actually works with the games they're designing. The FFVI/VII narrative model just doesn't work now and trying to follow it ends up making the games feel unsatisfying and incomplete.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,988
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I'm aware people disqualify good games to make it easier to complain about bad games.
That's not what's happening though, FF14 may be technically mainline... but it's an MMO (along with 11) and the others are SP so there is a clear difference and reason why OP isn't counting 11 and 14.
 

Doskoi Panda

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,978
Felt more and more to me like some of the people holding the reins of the franchise were fanfic-tier writers in a candy shop, people who measure the worth of a story in how fucking cool it looks. Some modern FF stories read like the sort of stuff teens would post as WIP ideas on the Chara RPGMaker forums back in the day.
 

Deleted member 426

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,273
The whole XIII era was atrocious because Toriyama was in charge. Someone who's best ever game by quite some margin is X-2. I like X-2 but if that's the best a director can do, don't put him in charge of your flagship series.

XIV was great and then XV was rushed out in 3 years.

Is there a broader problem with SE? I don't think there is: at least not any more. Not since Yoichi Wada left. SE have spent the last 5 years making amazing JRPGs, and VIIR looks incredible.
 

iksenpets

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,502
Dallas, TX
Some of it is that VII created a JRPG bubble on the PS1, where being the first to really take advantage of what you could do in terms of CGI cutscenes and prerendered background using CDs made it a smash hit, but eventually that dazzle wore off. And then Square just had a lot of weird business problems in the PS3/360 era, over-investing in an unwieldy engine and having to put all hands on deck salvaging FF14, which left them spending practically a decade just iterating on the unbeloved FF13, and then releasing an FF15 that had been sort of slowly developing under multiple different directors during that whole period. So they went from a pretty artificial high to a pretty artificial low. As long as they don't bungle whatever 16 is going to be, I'm sure they should be able to get back to a pretty ok place, though they'll never meet the expectations of people who view the cultural obsession around FF7 as the natural place of the series in the world.
 

sfortunato

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,740
Italy
Also, Sakaguchi leaving can be considered a factor depending on your view but it's oversimplification to say that was the only factor. FFT is my favorite FF and he barely had anything to do with it. Many people are saying Shadowbringers and FFXIV's overall story are the best in the series.

Don't underestimate the spillover effects of having such a great designer around. While not working directly on many masterpieces that were released in the Nineties, Sakaguchi definitely brought a vision in Squaresoft.
 

Niosai

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,926
People still go back and play FFVII, VIII and IX. I have. They not only hold up, they are better games than most RPGs today and certainly better games than FFXV.

Better story, better characters, better and more deep battle mechanics (materia and GF systems better than anything in ffxv), more varied locations, more mini games, more *meaningful* side quests rather than time padding MMO nonsense, more people to talk to, more world building.

These aren't rose tinted glasses. The games were just far better made. More content, more meaningful content and better content. Better and more coherent style and story telling. They are holistically good games.



Nonsense. People disliked it for perfectly valid reasons. Poor story telling, unfinished game, shallow combat, piecemeal DLC side stories for the party members, MMO fetch/rat killing side quests, empty and boring open world, having to watch a sold separately movie to actually get background and context to the game etc etc

Trying to hand wave all these perfectly valid criticisms of FFXV as "people don't like it because it is different" is very intellectually dishonest.

FFXV is a very poor RPG. And, quite opposite to your argument, if you took the FF name away from it I'm fairly certain it would have been utterly trashed by everyone. Imagine some no-name RPG released a completely unfinished game, with an awfully told story, gated all the personal stories of the party members behind DLC, completely empty and dead open world and filled it with time padding MMO fetch quests and had a brain-dead shallow combat system. Nobody would give it the pass FFXV got because it was FF and had been in development hell for like 10 years so people were just happy to see it exist. It would have, rightfully, gotten 6-7/10 across the board which is what it deserves.

It absolutely does not stand up to the legacy of FF outside of flashy visuals. Anything else, of substance or depth, is mediocre at best. Mediocre open world. Mediocre story told awfully. Mediocre battle system. Mediocre side quests. Released incomplete and charging for character side stories.

I played Xenoblade chronicles 2 after FFXV, and while I was not a fan of the art style or the fan service the actual game itself was a masterpiece especially in comparison to the dumpster fire that was FFXV. It had an amazing story, an interesting world, deep and fun battle system, great characters and best of all the DLC was basically an entire other game and it didn't feel like I was being sold bits of the game I already paid for.

It had a worse art style and graphics than FFXV, but everything outside of visuals puts FFXV to absolute shame.
I appreciate you taking the time to gather your opinion here. Your thoughts on FFXV, though, I just can't see where you're coming from. Was the story missing a single cutscene that was promised and arguably needed for reference? Yes. Does that make it a poor story, or bad storytelling? No.

The "unfinished game" argument is another opinion I can't understand. The game had a tumultuous development, yes, but it was by no means incomplete. I concede that there were a couple of moments that were intentionally left vague for DLC, but those moments were inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.

Nearly every RPG I've ever played has has those terrible "rat-killing MMO" quests, so I'm not sure why you're singling this one out. The open world is fine.

Yeah, there is character-centric DLC. It's also entirely optional. Plus, those episodes added a ton of gameplay variety to the base game in the form of making the entire party playable. They didn't lock that behind a paywall, and they easily could have.

Your argument still fundamentally hinges on a comparison to earlier FF games. While you did mention Xenoblade Chronicles 2, this is a different game in a different series doing different things in a post-FFXV world. I'm sure plenty of people love both games for different reasons.
 

Phoenixazure

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,444
With so many people disregarding FFXIV, part of me wishes they did a Shadowbringers spin-off title (though a lot of the character building from the previous titles/ARR would be lost, maybe a dialogue system where the party members can recount their previous trips/events. Never gonna happen but it really is in the top echelon of Final Fantasy
 

Lumination

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,495
I've thought about this a lot the last few years. This thread has compiled some great points, and my opinion on it is constantly changing. However, if I look at the last FFs I enjoyed and the JRPGs I play now, I think the resounding answer is: style and worldbuilding.

FFVII and X had that style. Just great, gripping worldbuilding from minute one that really sucked you in and got you lost in their world. FFXII and XV are definitely more modest and muted in that sense. Even WoFF had a great visual identity, and that effort goes a long way for me. Non-FF games I've enjoyed like P5 nailed the visual style, but miss out on a bit of the world depth.

So I guess, big budget graphics and melodrama are nice, but I need them to use said graphics to create a really compelling world I want to get lost in. That's what matters to me most.
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,184
If Dragon Quest does not have to change, then why does FF needs to? Like it or not, turn-based battles are part of the series' DNA. FFXV feels wrong because they changed the formula too much while applying Western game design philosophies.

not saying FF has to "change" but that's always been its penchant with conventions, even going back to the 8 bit days. to use a sibling analogy DQ is the clean cut well spoken kid and FF wears a leather jacket and smokes cigarettes in the boy's room. like take FF7, seems like a run of the mill FF today but back then it was a huge wtf to the fanbase... a metropolitan city, no castles or imps, cars and motorcycles ect

as for western design philosophies, battle systems, et al ... maybe they took a wrong direction with it, maybe not. but it's a red herring, shaking things up has always been in its DNA
 
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sfortunato

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,740
Italy
To those people referring to FFXI and FFXIV as great gamers...

...They definitely are but they are a different type of game which cater a niche of the FF fanbase or a different audience. And that's totally fine. But it's different.

People have been associating FF with single-player offline jRPGs for more than a decade before FFXI was released. In Japan, while the franchise was selling 3m+ with each new entry, FFXI sold around 200k units. Hence, it's completely fine to leave MMORPG out of the debate.
 
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fireflame

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,275
To those people referring to FFXI and FFXIV as great gamers...

...They definitely are but they are a different type of game which cater a niche of the FF fanbase or a different audience. And that's totally fine. But it's different.

People have been associating FF with single-player offline jRPGs for more than a decade before FFXI was released. In Japan, while the franchise was selling 3m+ with each new entry, FFXI sold around 200k units. Hence, it's completely fine to leave MMORPG out of the debate.
yes, this wasnt intended to be a "purist" approach on the debate
 

Sephiroth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,043
Just wait until E3 2020 and Sony announces a new Square-Enix/Japan Studios collab:

Final Fantasy Tactics 2
 

Freeglader

Unshakable Resolve - One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 13, 2017
825
In my personal opinion, the fanbase became too large, while simultaneously blinded by nostalgia. This, in combination with the rise of the internet and online communities, has led to negative hyperbolic reactions to the series amongst fans ever since FFX. Pretty much the same phenomenon can be observed among Star Wars fans. At this point, SE will always piss some of their fans off no matter what they do. The franchise has simply existed for too long and has gathered such a wide range of fans, each with their own interpretation as to what a Final Fantasy game should be.
 

gogosox82

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,385
the move to focusing on state of the art graphics put story in the back seat.
Meh. The games were always impressive looking for the time so I don't think that is the issue. It has more to do with jrpgs not driving the industry anymore. Shooters and action games dominate the industry and jrpgs have become more niche so it isn't as big as it once was. That and ff going into development hell with the hd era and it taking entirely too long to put out XIII and then it not being good really hurt the series. It seems to have made a bit of a comeback with realm reborn and XV but not nearly to where it was in the ps1 and ps2 era.
 

mute

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,118
Why is complicated, but the fall/disappointment started with PS2 for me.

Part of that was the fact that for me, it never was a technical marvel and I think that starting with the PS2 they leaned into that aspect way too much.
 

Glass Arrows

Member
Jan 10, 2019
1,414
If Dragon Quest does not have to change, then why does FF needs to? Like it or not, turn-based battles are part of the series' DNA. FFXV feels wrong because they changed the formula too much while applying Western game design philosophies.

Apples and oranges. FF has always been a very experimental series that isn't afraid to revamp drastically for the next installment in various ways.

Not to say people have to like action-based or can't prefer turn-based, but from what most people have said FFXV's problem wasn't that the combat was action, it was that it was a BAD action-based system.
 

Eppcetera

Member
Mar 3, 2018
1,911
In some respects though the first nine games seem to be less controversial, and part of that is probably from how relatively uniform they are. FF stuck with ATB from IV to IX. I wonder what the reaction would be if Square Enix made FFXVI basically like Dragon Quest XI but with ATB and Nomura character designs -- just go full old school. A handful of modern console JRPGs have proven it can be done -- DQXI, Ni No Kuni, etc.

One advantage of the uniform game design is that if the player likes playing one of Final Fantasy IV-IX, there is a good chance the player will like the other ones, too, to some extent. The series lost its consistency, so there's little guarantee that liking one of the recent Final Fantasy games means that someone will enjoy a different recent Final Fantasy. If I heard someone loved Final Fantasy XII, I wouldn't recommend Final Fantasy XIII to that person, since those two games are wildly different from one another, to a degree that far surpasses the differences between, say, Final Fantasy IV and V. Also, I would be ecstatic if Square made another throwback Final Fantasy; I already think that Square's best Final Fantasy in recent years is Bravely Default, which is essentially a newer version of Final Fantasy V.

I played Xenoblade chronicles 2 after FFXV, and while I was not a fan of the art style or the fan service the actual game itself was a masterpiece especially in comparison to the dumpster fire that was FFXV. It had an amazing story, an interesting world, deep and fun battle system, great characters and best of all the DLC was basically an entire other game and it didn't feel like I was being sold bits of the game I already paid for.

It had a worse art style and graphics than FFXV, but everything outside of visuals puts FFXV to absolute shame.

Honestly, I preferred Xenoblade's art style and graphics over Final Fantasy XV's, and I'm not even a major fan of Xenoblade 2's art style. Still, Xenoblade 2 has some fantastic environments (Final Fantasy XV has realistic environments, but I don't consider them interesting or visually arresting), and there's at least some consistency in character design in Xenoblade 2, despite that game using different character designers for many of the characters and Blades. The earliest point where Final Fantasy XV broke my immersion is when I saw one of the game's NPCs, as all of them look like different species next to Noctis and crew. The playable characters, as well as the rest of the primary cast, are designed by Nomura and embody a standard anime aesthetic, but the NPCs look like crappy Western Fallout game rejects; characters like Noctis and Dave (one of the candidates for worst NPC ever) do not look like they belong in the same game. And, at the end of the day, that clash in aesthetics just shows the lack of care that is prevalent throughout Final Fantasy XV; Square didn't bother to use their in-house staff to design ever character in order to maintain a consistent aesthetic for the game, as they outsourced development to a number of other studios.

Moreover, I didn't go into how messy I view Final Fantasy XV's graphics in practice, when the player is engaging in combat. But I am a diehard Final Fantasy XV hater and I have nothing positive to say about the game, other than I was glad I could finish it in less than 30 hours.
 

Firmus_Anguis

Member
Oct 30, 2017
6,123
If Dragon Quest does not have to change, then why does FF needs to? Like it or not, turn-based battles are part of the series' DNA. FFXV feels wrong because they changed the formula too much while applying Western game design philosophies.
Part of Dragon Quest's charm is that old-school feeling you get from it, it's charm is in the nostalgia it evokes.

That's where FF and DQ differ... No FF is the same (not counting sequels, but even they differ). We might get a turn-based FF next, we don't know yet. FF has always tried to do new things and sometimes reverted to what worked in the past (which, ironically, never seemed like a regression for the series).

Considering the troubled development of FFXV, they still released a competent game (aside from chapter 13, which almost ruined the entire game for me).

I believe Square is on the verge of making a Capcom-like comeback, at least I hope so!
 

misterBee

Member
Aug 16, 2018
223
Final Fantasy games 'declined' because of nostalgia.

Final Fantasy games 'declined' because every game they try something new, and people who liked an older game are unhappy about it.

They all share the same name, but since the PS1 they've for the most part been completely different from one another.

Someone who started with FF6 when they were a kid probably hates 13. Someone who started with 15 probably wonders why anybody wants to sit around and watch a couple of sprites stand around while a meter fills up.

While there are some FF games that almost everyone seems to like, for the most part people are attracted to the first FF they played/the FF games they played when they were young, because that's what they're used to and it reminds them of the happy video game playing days of their youth.

FF isn't really in decline. It's just not what a lot of people (usually existing fans) want it to be.

Compare this to Dragon Quest, which is almost the same exact thing every damn time.

FF creates new fans every game that fight with fans of previous generations. DQ just caters to the same people every time.
 

RF Switch

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,118
Final Fantasy used to be a game where I could get lost in its world and story. It always felt so perfectly told especially with the music accompanying it. The gameplay wasn't too hard and you could relax while playing it. To me once the horrible voice acting entered in was the beginning of the end. The shocking thing to me is that it can still be reversed and cause the gaming world in to a frenzy if they made a big budget old school final fantasy with an art direction close to IX.
 

henhowc

Member
Oct 26, 2017
33,578
Los Angeles, CA
I know people joke about it but Hd towns.

The last gen titles were in development he'll and took too long to come out. They were ok but didn't live up to the quality we expected based on previous games nor were they above the competition anymore.
 

misterBee

Member
Aug 16, 2018
223
Final Fantasy used to be a game where I could get lost in its world and story. It always felt so perfectly told especially with the music accompanying it. The gameplay wasn't too hard and you could relax while playing it. To me once the horrible voice acting entered in was the beginning of the end. The shocking thing to me is that it can still be reversed and cause the gaming world in to a frenzy if they made a big budget old school final fantasy with an art direction close to IX.

You grew up in a time where voice acting wasn't a thing in a lot of games. There are people who came after you that expect voice acting and would find the idea of a SNES-style FF pretty boring.

Generation gap is real. Everybody likes what they had before, and to some extent dislike the newer stuff.

I myself liked older SNES FF games just fine, but wouldn't be that excited if they suddenly announced they were making another one of those. I'm also a huge Megaman fan, and never bothered to play MM 10/11.

A lot of people think everything would be perfect if X company just went back to making games that are like the ones they played as a kid/when they were younger. But really they're just chasing nostalgia.
 

Niosai

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,926
In my personal opinion, the fanbase became too large, while simultaneously blinded by nostalgia. This, in combination with the rise of the internet and online communities, has led to negative hyperbolic reactions to the series amongst fans ever since FFX. Pretty much the same phenomenon can be observed among Star Wars fans. At this point, SE will always piss some of their fans off no matter what they do. The franchise has simply existed for too long and has gathered such a wide range of fans, each with their own interpretation as to what a Final Fantasy game should be.
This is pretty much it. Hardcore fans want the series to stay exactly the same for each entry, while SE is going to keep trying new things. If they made the exact same game over and over, sure, hardcore fans will buy it but a mass audience will tire of it quickly. The vocal fanbase is only a tiny sliver of their actual audience.