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Who did you side with Captain America: Civil War

  • Team Cap

    Votes: 1,156 71.8%
  • Team Iron Man

    Votes: 453 28.2%

  • Total voters
    1,609

Ravenwraith

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,353
Checks and balances make sense, but the UN was in no shape to provide them and couldn't have even if they wanted to. There's not a box in the world that can hold Scarlet Witch, for starters, and even disregarding her Captain America was easily able to operate the Avengers under the radar.

The only people that could realistically hold supers accountable are other supers.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,734
Anyone who sided with Stark is an idiot.

Stark's POV is tarnished by the fact that he was the cause of most of the problems: Ultron. To limit freedoms specifically because of you, is the most narcissistic and illogical stance that anyone could take.

Furthermore, they were ready to kill Bucky before realizing that he was victim to Hydra's mind control. That alone should tell you how flawed Stark's side was from Day 1.
 

Tavernade

Tavernade
Moderator
Sep 18, 2018
8,634
I dunno. I'm kinda on team Iron Man but that's mostly due to the conflict bring mishandled, insofar as Steve could have given way better info to Tony about what he was doing and defuse the situation early on. Then they could have met in the middle in a 'we go ahead with it until we don't' way.

In an ideal world Tony is right and in a cynical world neither is right, but in a super hero universe Steve is right. In the movie both are kinda wrong?
 

Calvinien

Banned
Jul 13, 2019
2,970
I think part of Stark's perspective (and Black Widow too) is to sign the damn accords now and keep the team together. if something happened in the future that government forbid the Avengers from taking action like Cap feared. they can just ignore the accords later, just like what Stark continuously keep doing, first he join Cap in the second half of the movie. then at the ending he ignore Ross calling him about Cap breaking prison, and in Infinity War where he instantly go after the Alien without government approval.

Which illustrates why he's wrong. If his logic is 'we need oversight. Unless of course I decide we don't and then clearly we do whatever i want anyways.'then not only is the oversight clearly pointless, all he is doing is inconveniencing others because a single person held him accountable for the thousanfs of innocent lives he has ruined in his life long mission to waste oxygen.

The movie's attempts at building up iron man's POV fail when you consider that he's the root cause of like 90% of the MCU's villains. Hell, even Hydra's big plan in winter soldier would not have been possible had stark not built 3 floating murderfortresses with no easy way of stopping them if they went rogue. And this was before he built skynet, and left it connected to A) an alien artifact he didn't understand B) the internet.
 

Scullibundo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,692
The film obviously sides with Tony.

In real life only a lunatic would side with Cap or anyone who thinks like him, but the films take place in a fantasy world with conspiracies and secret nazi orders ruling governments so things are different.

Now when you think about it this kind of makes the films message worthless and it cant be applied to real life but eh.
How long till Tony's team becomes ICE
 

Calamari41

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,099
All I know is it's just too bad that Reed Richards wasn't around to magnanimously and efficiently micromanage everyone's affairs for them.
 
Nov 29, 2018
1,088
Iron Man. An almost entirely American black ops organization of super-humans should never exist without massive oversight and transparency.
 

Punchline

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,151
The Marvel Universe has yet to make a good case for the Sokovian Accords. Iron Man's team had more of my favorite characters, but it just doesn't really make any sense to get governmental approval for the events that happen in the MCU, especially given that corruption is rampant. Why follow the Sokovian Accords to begin with when you have to break them all the time anyway in the case of SHIELD, in the case of Infinity War/Endgame- like I don't trust the government on this one, folks, especially with such "great" regulations such as "Any enhanced individuals who use their powers to break the law (including those who take part in extralegal vigilante activities), or are otherwise deemed to be a threat to the safety of the general public, may be detained indefinitely without trial)".
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
I didn't say she did.

Tony supported the accords because he couldn't trust himself at that point.

Tony wanted to kill Bucky because Bucky killed his parents.

Even if you don't agree, Tony's motivation makes sense.

Yeah but his motives for wanting the accords don't have anything to do with Bucky killing his mother, which is the point I'm making. The posters you're replying to were talking about his reasons for supporting the accords, not his reason for wanting to kill Bucky.

Also he doesn't really support the accords, he knowingly violates them in the same movie
 

SamAlbro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,355
Cap.

Iron Man would have been right in the abstract, but the reality of the situation was that Cap had just a couple years earlier uncovered a massive conspiracy where most of the world's governments and security agencies were full of Nazi agents. There's no point in putting the most dangerous fighting force in the world in the hands of people who can reasonably be suspected of being Nazis.
 

ash32121

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,565
The idea of "reigning" in a squad of superheroes is honestly, dumb ass fuck.

If Wanda/Doctor Strange/Thor decide fuck it, this Earth gets erased, ain't no committee can do shit.

The only heroes they can reign in is street level to city level at best. In the comic, the Accord has weight because of the mutants, in MCU, yeah, good luck telling Black Panther, Wanda, Steven Strange, or Thor what they can't and can do.
 

Calamari41

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,099
The idea of "reigning" in a squad of superheroes is honestly, dumb ass fuck.

If Wanda/Doctor Strange/Thor decide fuck it, this Earth gets erased, ain't no committee can do shit.

The only heroes they can reign in is street level to city level at best. In the comic, the Accord has weight because of the mutants, in MCU, yeah, good luck telling Black Panther, Wanda, Steven Strange, or Thor what they can't and can do.

This is a good point. The governments of the world need to tread lightly with these people because really, they're lucky the likes of Thor, Dr Strange, Wanda, and later Reed Richards don't decide that they should be the ones running the whole show.
 

Coleslaw

Member
Nov 3, 2018
729
The idea of "reigning" in a squad of superheroes is honestly, dumb ass fuck.

If Wanda/Doctor Strange/Thor decide fuck it, this Earth gets erased, ain't no committee can do shit.

The only heroes they can reign in is street level to city level at best. In the comic, the Accord has weight because of the mutants, in MCU, yeah, good luck telling Black Panther, Wanda, Steven Strange, or Thor what they can't and can do.

I think the idea is that's we would cultivate mutual respect, responsibilities, and boundaries. Kind of like how the US does whatever it wants at the end of the day, but superficially and in at least some ways practically, they do adhere to certain rules and boundaries and committees.
 

Kevers

The Fallen
Oct 29, 2017
14,576
Syracuse, NY
I didn't say she did.

Tony supported the accords because he couldn't trust himself at that point.

Tony wanted to kill Bucky because Bucky killed his parents.

Even if you don't agree, Tony's motivations in the film makes sense.

Tony didn't find out about Bucky killing his parents until the very end of the film. He made his decision well before that.
 
OP
OP
PhoenixAKG

PhoenixAKG

Member
Aug 14, 2019
7,817
Iron Man. An almost entirely American black ops organization of super-humans should never exist without massive oversight and transparency.

Would you really trust the US or Western Governments to provide proper oversight? Hell they'd probably use heroes to do their dirty work in foreign countries such as destabilizing them, coercing them, etc.
 

SneakersSO

Banned
Oct 24, 2017
1,353
North America
The idea of "reigning" in a squad of superheroes is honestly, dumb ass fuck.

If Wanda/Doctor Strange/Thor decide fuck it, this Earth gets erased, ain't no committee can do shit.

The only heroes they can reign in is street level to city level at best. In the comic, the Accord has weight because of the mutants, in MCU, yeah, good luck telling Black Panther, Wanda, Steven Strange, or Thor what they can't and can do.

This is what makes the accords even more hilarious even at the time they were signed.

By the time we even get to Civil War, the people in charge of both the Avengers and the governments of the world are fully aware that

A) aliens exist
B) Said Aliens have the power to wipe out the Earth in a literal instant if they so choose

The only ones keeping said aliens at bay in any way are the same fucking people you are now trying to regulate. It even stands to reason that if these forces are the only ones who can circumvent planet-wiping forces, then they themselves are planet wiping forces as well. The accords merely exist to create conflict among super-powered individuals, since there is absolute jack shit the governments can actually do against them.
 
Nov 29, 2018
1,088
Would you really trust the US or Western Governments to provide proper oversight? Hell they'd probably use heroes to do their dirty work in foreign countries such as destabilizing them, coercing them, etc.
No, but the alternative is just crossing your fingers and hoping Tony Stark doesn't launch his drone army on Madrid during a bender or Wanda unmaking people accidently. The regular people of the MCU shouldn't have to just trust that the Avengers know what's best for them. At least with a democratically elected government they have some say in the matter.
 

KamenSenshi

Member
Nov 27, 2017
1,868
Team Ironman. His reason for wanting some oversight is pretty weak as shown but I can see wanting to have a bit. Not like everything was Tony's fault in that movie anyway considering someone knew the situation with Bucky and just kept it to themselves. Besides, they would just ignore the oversight anyway when they felt they needed to.
 

Arthands

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
8,039
Cap, thought Tony was being a fool and willingly let Zemo use him, when he blamed a brainwashed bucky for killing his parents. I know you don't always act rational when your loved ones are taken away, but he took it too far.

Cap also hide the truth about Bucky killing his parents. In fact Cap apologized for that
 

Quade

Member
Mar 8, 2019
1,195
Tony's stance was based on guilt, Steve's was based on logic and reasoning. It's a no brainer.
 

Deepwater

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,349
The core issue here is not whether or not the Avengers and superheroes in general should be held accountable to regular society, its whether or not society can even hold them accountable in the first place. Yeah you can jail the ones that are just regular humans but how do you control the hulk or thor or wanda or strange or captain marvel who all have powers that logically could make them virtually unstoppable against conventional forces. As others mentioned elsewhere in the thread, the Security Council responded to the Chitauri with a nuke. If the Avengers weren't able to control the Hulk, how many cities would the UN or US have nuked in order to try and stop him?

The fact of the matter is, and was always the case even in the comics, is that the Pro-Accords/Register/Ironman side only had as much power as the super humans who decided to align with them did. Without them, regular non-powered society would've likely wiped itself out trying to kill some of the world-level threats that exist out in the meta human community.

The funny thing about cape comics is that they tend to portray the larger earth-based community of metahumans as never truly being above the human society. The major place this diverges is with the X-men/mutant storylines, where you'll have groups of mutants who are definitively trying to create a society of homo-superior. Past that though, its mostly what I described earlier. It's almost naive by nature, because it presumes that the vast majority of metahumans would effectively have goals and desires that rarely aim for society ruled by homo-superior/metahuman. Yeah you get the villain or three that want to take over the world, but few that frame their desires towards the metahuman community in the same way Magneto desires for a mutant-world earth. And while this would make more narrative sense in an isolated story, DC and Marvel literally have hundreds of named metahumans respectively, and for some subgroups like mutants, the number of possible metahumans in-universe clearly go into the millions, which is why big crossover events like Civil War can fall flat under interrogation.

If this was real life, I would absolutely hope and pray there is an Avengers-like group who are atypically and unambiguously good natured as Captain America to rein in the Hulk/Sentry/Wanda/Namor types. And as much as *eye* would like to think that regular society could hold a Thor or Hulk accountable, it would be straight up hubris.

How many hypothetically evil Hulks would need to appear in our reality before we nuked ourselves out of existence trying to kill them? 1? a Half-hulk? Come on. In reality, you better hope there are superheroes that are decent and human to protect us regular folk from the ones who aint. You can't put no leash on that. Like at that point, we're not in a position to be making demands, regular humanity wouldn't be at the top of the food chain.
 

Ripcord

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,779
1. Meta-human registration
2. Meta-human death squads
3. Meta-human holocaust

Isn't this always how it goes in the Marvel time lines? Cap side all the way.
 

jman2050

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
5,809
The question is kind of a red herring as the bigger question being posed by the Team Iron Man/Team Cap sides isn't really the central conflict of the movie. And more broadly, the question still hasn't been suitably answered to this day given that even as far as Wandavision the world is tackling just how much responsibility superheroes should be bearing with the use of their powers.

The conflict of the movie is at its core an emotional one. Cap's unreasonably obstinate about his friend because he fears for his safety, Tony is plagued by guilt and paranoia. And the arranged spark by Zemo causes the whole thing to come to blows, which directly leads to their split at the end of the movie.

As for what side I'm on, I honestly don't know. It's a pretty valid debate when viewed as a broad practical matter beyond the context of the movie itself.
 

Arrrammis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,142
Tony might have a point overall, but in universe he doesn't really have a leg to stand on with his arguments

- Hydra infiltrated and took down SHIELD, one of the most advanced intelligence agencies in the world. Why would the Avengers have any faith in another institution like that.
- Every incident that Tony lists as a reason to have the oversight was either caused by Tony directly (Ultron, Sakovia, etc.) or made worse by the U.N.'s oversight (trying to nuke NYC)
 

psynergyadept

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,650
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As presented in the MCU there's not much to back up Tony's view given what's happened, and that very little of it falls at the feet of any of the team members except himself.


Then there's that Cap's big "crime" in the movie is wanting to bring in a suspect alive rather than murder Buckey on sight, and then conduct a real investigation. And even when proof of his innocence is brought forward, Ross doesn't care and still want's Buckey dead. The accords were rotten from the start.

facts.

was with Cap in the MCU and in the comics; though iron man more of a valid reason in the comics.

Tony really had the audacity to say this after the events of "Age of Ultron."

And the "suits" had the audacity to say this after the events of "Winter Soldier"
 

Sai

Prophet of Truth
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,625
Chicago
team members aside, i truly don't get how anyone could be team iron man ideologically lol. shit is totally wack.
 

Kinketsu

Member
Nov 17, 2017
1,976
Team Cap was proven right by events in pretty short order. The government and Tony were being manipulated by Zemo. Following that, the world government did nothing useful about the events of Infinity War, having to wait for the authorization of all UN nations wouldnt have helped anything and the response to Thanos of the guy who was pushing the Sokova Accords was to try to get Cap, Wanda, Falcon and Widow to be arrested, which wouldnt have helped the battle of Wakanda much.
 

Richietto

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,002
North Carolina
Both of them had good points but at that specific point in the story its hard to agree with Tony. Like Shield was literally Hydra and you want to be reined in??? By whomstve??? Why the fuck would Cap agree to that shit?