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Deleted member 46958

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Besides Persona 3, 4, and 5?

I'm putting together a term paper on ill represented queer individuals in JRPGs specifically, and wanted to know what titles had some poor depictions of characters (large or small) that are gay.

Thanks all. Trying to submit this paper to a conference so want it to be top shelf.
 

Red Arremer

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
12,259
Final Fantasy 7 has the crossdressing section which I find to be pretty bad.
Male Corrin in Fire Emblem Fates' Japanese version got conversion therapy, and there's also the fact that same-sex couples are barred from acquiring all characters.
One of the earlier SMT games had a shopkeeper that was pretty bad as well iirc.
 

Alucrid

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Oct 25, 2017
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didn't enchanted arms have an egregiously stereotypical gay character in the party?
 

Deleted member 3208

Oct 25, 2017
11,934
Actually, I think that was Soleil. Reading some articles, Corrin gave Soleil a magic potion to make her see him as a girl. Then, she falls in love with him, even after the potion effects go off, despite being lesbian.

Source

But, ignoring that, Fates is a mixed bag. Sure, you can marry not-Tharja as female Corrin and Niles as male Corrin, but after that, you can't date anyone else of the same gender. Add to that Soleil being portrayed as a stalker and molester (being Ophelia her prime target). Although, Forrest was quite effeminate and no one mocked him, unless I'm wrong. In fact, his support with his father was him accepting that his son loved wearing female clothing.
 

Booki

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Oct 25, 2017
4,865
Brooklyn
didn't enchanted arms have an egregiously stereotypical gay character in the party?
Yep! That would be Makoto! He was the openly gay guy with a lisp that obsessed over one of his classmates. Everyone was cool with it, but Makoto would snap at the MC because of his relationship with Makoto's crush.
 

PSqueak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,464
Don't play as many JRPGs as i used so can't give any input if you're are already covering Persona 3 (Transphobia) and Persona 5 (Homophobia).

Maybe Breath of the Wild could account for Transphobia depending how you interpret the scene where Link gets the Gerudo clothes, for a lot of people it counts because it's very easy to interpret the scene as Link getting disgusted at the sight of the merchant's beard.
 

NeonZ

One Winged Slayer
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Oct 28, 2017
9,395
That's missing a lot of context. Although Soleil is popular with girls, likes praising and teasing them and gets embarrassed when talking with them, she can only have romantic relationships with male characters, who aside from Corrin/Kamui don't need anything like that to make her fall for them. So there's no real "conversion" going on, she is never actually said to be a lesbian. The localized version changed the magical powder for a mental exercise of her imagining the avatar as a girl, and for some reason also wrote out most of her romantic endings with other Male characters (aside from another one that dresses in feminine clothing), which ends up reinforcing implications from that misunderstanding that didn't really exist in the original.
 

Deleted member 3208

Oct 25, 2017
11,934
Also, Steins;Gate. Isn't Okabe making fun of Luka with the: "He's a guy", while Luka is a trans-girl?
 

Mesoian

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Oct 28, 2017
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Yep! That would be Makoto! He was the openly gay guy with a lisp that obsessed over one of his classmates. Everyone was cool with it, but Makoto would snap at the MC because of his relationship with Makoto's crush.

Man, it has been fucking ages but I don't remember Makoto being bad per-say...

But that might have been simply because I thought it was neat an openly gay man was in a lead roll in a video game. I remember literally nothing else about that game.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
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Oct 28, 2017
26,819
it's very easy to interpret the scene as Link getting disgusted at the sight of the merchant's beard.

I'd say disgusted is a little strong...

Surprised sure...though I have seen a large number of people imprint their own feelings to that scene which is...unfortunately, commonly disgust.

::Sigh:: I don't get why that scene needed a punchline. I feel like it's fine if it doesn't have a punchline.

OP, you'd have a harder time listing the opposite, lol.
You ain't lying...
 

Deleted member 2669

user requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
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That's missing a lot of context. Although Soleil is popular with girls, likes praising and teasing them and gets embarrassed when talking with them, she can only have romantic relationships with male characters, who aside from Corrin/Kamui don't need anything like that to make her fall for them. So there's no real "conversion" going on, she is never actually said to be a lesbian. The localized version changed the magical powder for a mental exercise of her imagining the avatar as a girl, and for some reason also wrote out most of her romantic endings with other Male characters (aside from another one that dresses in feminine clothing), which ends up reinforcing implications from that misunderstanding that didn't really exist in the original.
You can't have someone whose entire character is swooning over girls and say she's not into girls. That she can only date men is some serious bullshit to begin with.

That scene 100% reads as conversion therapy.
 

Blindy

Member
Nov 16, 2017
3,929
Trails of Cold Steel 1 has Angelica who consistently pervs on women that are practically children despite her being a senior(17/18) and makes no qualms about what their body will be like as they get older but I still like the character and she's decent enough comic relief. Have not finished the game or played the sequel so I don't know if she is redeemed but I can see some people finding her somewhat crude given she hits on anything, and I mean anything that's a woman despite age difference.
 

Booki

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,865
Brooklyn
Man, it has been fucking ages but I don't remember Makoto being bad per-say...

But that might have been simply because I thought it was neat an openly gay man was in a lead roll in a video game. I remember literally nothing else about that game.
My memory of the game is foggy as well, but Makoto was chill for the most part. He was unfortunate enough to be an openly gay male back in the late 2000s when people could still poke fun at that sort of thing.

Enchanted Arms had a lot going on and yet it's forgotten when people talk about the PS360 era.
 

ASaiyan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,228
Don't forget the absolutely outrageous transphobia of Catherine and its remake, Full Body :/

Fates is a mixed bag even with that gross conversion therapy scene thankfully removed from the Western release. You can have a same-sex relationship with both Rhajat and Niles, but they both embody the harmful stereotype of the "perverted, deviant homosexual" to an uncomfortable degree. It took until the next game, Echoes, for Fire Emblem to get a gay character that is treated fully positively and respectfully (Leon).

I would also suggest you take a paragraph to note things like Yakuza 3's removal of offensive LGBTQ+ stereotypes and utterances in the Remaster, and its director (Nagoshi)'s explanation and comments on that choice. Overall, the situation is still pretty grim; but we are not wholly-bereft of designers like Nagoshi providing some cause for hope.
Also, Steins;Gate. Isn't Okabe making fun of Luka with the: "He's a guy", while Luka is a trans-girl?
Without wishing to spoil, part of the plot of the game is Okabe growing as a person in his response on these matters, and Luka appreciating him as one of the few people that treats them with some respect.

Having said that, he still does not come out the other side a wholly unbigoted ally. And there are some really uncomfortable scenes and utterances that, while perhaps meant to showcase his later "growth", probably could've improved the game by their absence altogether. So yeah, Steins;Gate could use a couple rewrites in this department.
 
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WaffleTaco

Community Resettler
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,908
Start with the opposite OP. Like everything I hear about Japanese games regarding LGBT is almost always negative.
 

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,869
I always remember the incredibly flamboyant character in Deep Fear, but not well enough to know if there was an actual issue with the character.

Wait, that's not a JRPG. Why so specific on genre?
 

Kuro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,902
Wouldn't it make more sense to do the paper on Japanese games in general?
 

BrandoBoySP

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,179
HERE BE CHARACTER SPOILERS:

Persona 3
has an entire segment on a beach where your protagonists are trying to pick up women; one of them ends up the butt of a joke because they're trans.

Persona 4 - for context, each character's shadow is a manifestation of parts of their personality they repress.
handles sexuality with sensitivity at first (Kanji Tatsumi), but ends up making the potentially-queer male character the object of jokes in pretty much every post-original-release piece of media. At first it's Kanji exploring his sexuality, not wanting to be gay, but accepting that his over-the-top queer shadow is a part of him, that he can be manly while still liking "girly" hobbies, and admitting he's attracted to another character (Naoto Shirogane). Naoto presents as male but is revealed to be female; Kanji maintains a crush on her regardless, meaning that a lot of people read him as pan or bi. Unfortunately, with Yosuke Hanamura--the best friend character--being homophobic... well, he matures throughout the course of the game and stops making fun of Kanji for his potential queerness, but every spinoff/sequel/whatever ends up having Yosuke continue making fun of him/being wary of him due to queerness. For context, though, it's pretty clear that Yosuke was originally intended to be a romance option for the protagonist, who can only be male--there are cut lines that even got English voice acting. Here's a tiny bit more context, too.

Naoto's entire arc can be read as transphobic, too. Her storyline is meant to be a critique of the strict gender roles that Japanese society enacts; Naoto is smart and wants to be a detective, which is a traditionally-male profession. She disguises herself as a man and lives life as a man, with her social link (basically, her side-story) revolving around her exploring her gender and figuring out how to feel comfortable in her own skin as a woman that identifies as a woman but is forced to present as male. Her shadow plays the role of a mad scientist, with a secret lab being the dungeon it runs, and it uses "mad science" as its approach to sex reassignment surgery, which isn't great. It's all because Naoto does NOT want to be a man, but given that reassignment surgery is portrayed as mad science forced upon otherwise-innocent people in Western society, it ends up having some pretty transphobic connotations.

Finally, it does end up revealed that the characters' shadows are less about the person's repression and more about how society views that person; it's a little ambiguous on if the shadows are a hybrid of both or if they're ONLY society's reflection.

Persona 5
has a possible drag queen as the bartender in a (non-explicitly-stated) gay bar that you go to regularly (Lala Escargot), and that character gets to have a full personality... but it also has a pair of predatory gay men (unnamed) who pop up out of nowhere, hit on the protagonist's best friend Ryuji Sakamoto, freak him out, then disappear until suddenly they manage to come up again, creep on Ryuji, and play a comedic role in a trip to Hawaii. Despite the party being on an entirely different continent.

Final Fantasy VII
has a sequence in which you have to cross-dress to get information and rescue a party member captured by, essentially, a Mafia leader that loves to choose sex workers. Part of this segment can involve you going to the Honey Bee Inn, a brothel with a gay area. The gay characters are mostly muscular men, and in one area, they basically force you into a bath with them. Cloud, your protagonist, reacts more with surprise than revulsion or anything, so it's not really played as assault, but it's not exactly great. Here's a rundown of the events that happen in each room of the Inn. The crossdressing itself is played for laughs; the punchline is that Cloud is really bad at acting feminine, rather than the fact that he's cross-dressing to save someone, but it can be read as transphobia for sure. To add to that, Japanese stereotypes of gay men are hyper-macho, especially back in the 1990s when the game came out, which is in stark contrast to the camp stereotype the USA had/has.

A word of caution: I'm guessing you're not Japanese, right? If you are, disregard this, but especially in academia, your framework needs to be well-defined. You're going to be analyzing JRPGs for problematic queer representation from a Western perspective. That needs to be a caveat that's established, or else you're making value judgments on representation and critiques that may have an entirely different connotation in their home culture. A good example of this is my Persona 4 example; while Westerners largely thought of it as highly transphobic, for many Japanese players, it was a progressive critique of systematic sexism. I can't speak for Japanese trans or other queer activists, because I haven't found many translated/English-origin critiques of the game from them and I'm not Japanese or trans. Basically, do what you can to either find Japanese perspectives to synthesize a well-rounded analysis, or make it explicit that this is solely from a Western perspective with Western sensibilities applied to your critique.

As you continue to research, I'd also make sure to note if representation is getting more plentiful/less problematic with time, too; "egregious examples of representation" is a pretty loaded place to start with and frames Japanese developers as inherently queerphobic despite there being good AND bad representation in JRPGs. It's also important to note that just because a piece of media has decent representation in Japan doesn't mean that it's considered progressive; I don't 100% know how it is now, but there used to be a segregation there in which queer television personalities were accepted because they were media personalities, but actual queer individuals were ignored/seen as shameful. There was also a lot of "it's ok because that's the anime genre for it" rather than a true push for representation.

Here's a list of games with LGBT representation, both good and bad. It might be another good starting point. Of particular interest might be Fire Emblem, Megami Tensei/Persona, and Valkyria Chronicles. Most of the games on the list aren't JRPGs.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 46958

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Aug 22, 2018
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The paper calls for the subject to be as specific as possible, break as much new ground as relatively possible.

After doing research, there exist a number of scholarly articles on poor representation in gaming, so I'd like to hone in on JRPGs, as it is virtually untouched.
 

Revolsin

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Oct 27, 2017
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Most of them that aren't recent.

They've gotten more tasteful recently
 

Dalik

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Nov 1, 2017
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User Warned: Derogatory language
All of them, I think dragon quest xi has the best lgbtq+ with sylvando.
Jap videogames treat lgbtq+ people like shit. At least I could marry my husband on ffxiv and there's also a gay couple decently done in a dungeon questline, nothing too crazy tho.

Mod edit: Post reverted to pre-warning state.
 
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Erpy

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May 31, 2018
3,002
Trails of Cold Steel 1 has Angelica who consistently pervs on women that are practically children despite her being a senior(17/18) and makes no qualms about what their body will be like as they get older but I still like the character and she's decent enough comic relief. Have not finished the game or played the sequel so I don't know if she is redeemed but I can see some people finding her somewhat crude given she hits on anything, and I mean anything that's a woman despite age difference.

Angelica acts like a shameless skirt-chaser throughout most of the game, but it's mentioned in chapter 6 of that game that

Anglica has a very strained relationship with her strict and old-fashioned dad, who's one of the most powerful nobles in the country, and they butted heads to the point where Angelica was threatening to go off the rails until Gwyn Reinford (whose family has close ties with Angie's family) stepped in and took her under his wing, acting as a role model, mentor and semi-parental figure who gave Angie the affirmation and positive reinforcement she didn't get from her dad and managed to give her rebellious streak a more constructive bend.

The game specifically points out at this point that Angelica is laid-back, carefree and a pervert because her mentor figure and role model during her early teenage years was laid-back, carefree and a pervert, not because of her sexuality.

So she's an arche-type that seems to be played straight at first, but then gets twisted around a little bit later on.
 
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Deleted member 5535

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Don't play as many JRPGs as i used so can't give any input if you're are already covering Persona 3 (Transphobia) and Persona 5 (Homophobia).

Maybe Breath of the Wild could account for Transphobia depending how you interpret the scene where Link gets the Gerudo clothes, for a lot of people it counts because it's very easy to interpret the scene as Link getting disgusted at the sight of the merchant's beard.
Also, Steins;Gate. Isn't Okabe making fun of Luka with the: "He's a guy", while Luka is a trans-girl?

Uh, none of those two are RPG.

All of them are bad, I think dragon quest xi has the best lgbtq+ with sylvando.
Jap videogames treat lgbtq+ people like shit. At least I could marry my husband on ffxiv and there's also a gay couple decently done in a dungeon questline, nothing too crazy tho.

Jap is a racist term, don't use it. Use JP if you want to use something short.
 

OG_Thrills

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Oct 27, 2017
4,655
I'm confused... Why would you actively seek out egregious representations of the LGBTQ community? Isn't that playing directly into the hands of those who hold such disgusting positions in the first place? Especially when there are actual good representations out there in the gaming community that should be pushed to the fore, recognized and celebrated?
 
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Oct 25, 2017
12,192
I unfortunately have not played any of them yet, but the only games in that category with LGBTQ characters without egregious representations I've ever heard about are Persona 2, Trails in the Sky and Digital Devil Saga.

Flamboyant pervy crossdressers and trans/gay characters being the butt of jokes is a very common trope, it seems.
 

Deleted member 2669

user requested account closure
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I'm confused... Why would you actively seek out egregious representations of the LGBTQ community? Isn't that playing directly into the hands of those who hold such disgusting positions in the first place? Especially when there are actual good representations out there in the gaming community that should be pushed to the fore, recognized and celebrated?
To...study and critique them?
 

Dee Dee

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Nov 2, 2017
1,868
I have always taken Luka as trans-girl since Luka wanted to be born as a girl.

I might be misremembering (sorry), but I remember it as Luka wanting to be a girl so he could be with Okabe, and that was just weird to me as a reason to embrace one's feminity, and then he becomes a girl because *vegetable juice* and they have a baby because despite Okabe having a serious emotional connection with other girls, Luka is just TOO SEXY as a girl and everything about this section was a hot mess I wouldn't want to touch again with a ten feet pole, jeeez.

Also, the constant "but he's a guy" echoed some homophobia, as in, "I really shouldn't find him attractive, because only gay people can appreciate physical beauty in the same gender, and I am clearly not gay, so let's make this REALLY awkward here".

HOT. MESS.

It's easy to shit on the two sad gay options Fire Emblem Fates decided to throw people a bone with, that game really doesn't get relationships right in the first place though. I'm not giving it a pass, I'm just saying that it's come to the point in modern Fire Emblems where they need to write romance out of thin air for about 50 members of your army interchangeably with each other. Some of them literally just bond over how much they both like someone else (Frederick X Cherche was something else...).
And then they just make some of those 50 characters walking-talking empty trope shells, that are just so offensively devoid of redeemable qualities or growth... The non-existant amount of effort they put into the first available gay romance options speaks volumes. This really should have been handled with more care.

For Fire Emblem to get better LGBT representation, this series needs to get back to a smaller cast for sure, and they need to cut down and hand pick the type of interactions people have with each other. Leon (Fire Emblem Echoes) was an interesting case. He's an effeminate archer that openly talks about his love for men, but his sexuality is never ridiculed or regarded as unwelcome by others. He brings up the topic by himself, which gives him the opportunity to talk about it with dignity and from is own perspective. I think that saved the otherwise somewhat tropey character they gave him from being a bit of a throwaway gay token.

More of the same by the way:
Xenoblade Chronicles X had these two twins with make-up. One of them shared my passion for H.B., so I thought they were cool, but when you think about it, yeah, they weren't really cool and actually just the typical flamboyant stereotype.
tumblr_nze6fhHixU1sbgdg5o1_1280.jpg
 

demi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,910
Besides Persona 3, 4, and 5?

I'm putting together a term paper on ill represented queer individuals in JRPGs specifically, and wanted to know what titles had some poor depictions of characters (large or small) that are gay.

Thanks all. Trying to submit this paper to a conference so want it to be top shelf.

Not sure if it was linked yet but this video seems to reference some Gay characters in games. Not sure if it meets your needs, but take a look if you haven't

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W94DGHJI6TU
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
Sadly I can't think of anything positive.

It has been a while since I played Persona 3 Portable (will do a replay soon) but I remember them not showing that transphobic scene in FeMC campaign. She could also romance Aigis as well, Mitsuru is also implied to have romance though not confirmed. And she is better written too so those reasons are good enough that it should have been the canon.

But as I said it had been a while since i played so I could be wrong.
 
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OP
OP

Deleted member 46958

User requested account closure
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Aug 22, 2018
2,574
I'm confused... Why would you actively seek out egregious representations of the LGBTQ community? Isn't that playing directly into the hands of those who hold such disgusting positions in the first place? Especially when there are actual good representations out there in the gaming community that should be pushed to the fore, recognized and celebrated?

Confused as to why you're confused. By highlighting the poor representations in a relatively niche genre of games, it sheds light on follies that need to be corrected in the future.

Edit: this thread has been very helpful.
 

Lozange

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,115
You've already mentioned Persona, but Catherine (and by extension, Catherine Full Body, the remake) is um. A little problematic. Even if it's not entirely irredeemable, there's some things that are VERY VERY BAD and should absolutely not be replicated.
Erica is a trans woman with a cool design, and interesting role in the plot. She doesn't particularly fall into any stereotypes, and she's lovely.
Her friends constantly make fun of her, the protagonist included. The general implication that having sex with her is somehow lesser to having sex with a cis woman, and that she somehow tricked someone into it (let's not get into how THAT doesn't make sense), and a major plot point treats her as a dude. Which admittedly in a better written game could have been the point because said plot point is treated as backwards and wrong, but Erica being involved is never called out. Similarly, her friends' transphobia is also never really called out.
...Oh, she's also deadnamed in one ending, then deadnamed in the credits and the artbook, where the creators treat her as a guy and talk about the big reveal, etc.
Pretty bad overall imo, but I know some people like Erica anyway because the character herself is legitimately cool.
So this is pretty spotty because I haven't played the game, and I don't plan to, so I'd recommend looking it up yourself. But basically, from what I remember:
The good news. Some of the more problematic lines regarding Erica have been changed. Yay!
The bad news. There's a time travel ending, where the general implication is that Erica has, best case scenario, decided to delay her transition, in what's supposed to be a super duper happy ending for everyone.
And then there's the new character Rin (who I'm going to use they pronouns for because I'm not entirely sure of their specific situation), who's an AMAB character who presents femininely, and is the new romantic route of the game.
The promotional material, and indeed the game's logo, has a lot of "What's in their pants" imagery.
When the protagonist finds out, it's in an unrealistic situation that enforces narratives about trans people hiding their biological sex to have sex with cis people, and he reacts... negatively. (I think he punches them, but I'm honestly not sure)
I think they make up later, but it's a bad setup.
And also they're an alien? Which would normally just be funny, but when it's in THIS game, it's hard not to take that negatively.
 

ASaiyan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,228
You've already mentioned Persona, but Catherine (and by extension, Catherine Full Body, the remake) is um. A little problematic. Even if it's not entirely irredeemable, there's some things that are VERY VERY BAD and should absolutely not be replicated.
Erica is a trans woman with a cool design, and interesting role in the plot. She doesn't particularly fall into any stereotypes, and she's lovely.
Her friends constantly make fun of her, the protagonist included. The general implication that having sex with her is somehow lesser to having sex with a cis woman, and that she somehow tricked someone into it (let's not get into how THAT doesn't make sense), and a major plot point treats her as a dude. Which admittedly in a better written game could have been the point because said plot point is treated as backwards and wrong, but Erica being involved is never called out. Similarly, her friends' transphobia is also never really called out.
...Oh, she's also deadnamed in one ending, then deadnamed in the credits and the artbook, where the creators treat her as a guy and talk about the big reveal, etc.
Pretty bad overall imo, but I know some people like Erica anyway because the character herself is legitimately cool.
So this is pretty spotty because I haven't played the game, and I don't plan to, so I'd recommend looking it up yourself. But basically, from what I remember:
The good news. Some of the more problematic lines regarding Erica have been changed. Yay!
The bad news. There's a time travel ending, where the general implication is that Erica has, best case scenario, decided to delay her transition, in what's supposed to be a super duper happy ending for everyone.
And then there's the new character Rin (who I'm going to use they pronouns for because I'm not entirely sure of their specific situation), who's an AMAB character who presents femininely, and is the new romantic route of the game.
The promotional material, and indeed the game's logo, has a lot of "What's in their pants" imagery.
When the protagonist finds out, it's in an unrealistic situation that enforces narratives about trans people hiding their biological sex to have sex with cis people, and he reacts... negatively. (I think he punches them, but I'm honestly not sure)
I think they make up later, but it's a bad setup.
And also they're an alien? Which would normally just be funny, but when it's in THIS game, it's hard not to take that negatively.
Oh, don't worry, it is indeed entirely irredeemable and inexcusable. Fuck Hashino.
 

Lozange

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,115
Oh, don't worry, it is indeed entirely irredeemable and inexcusable. Fuck Hashino.
The reason I say it's not entirely irredeemable is that I know some trans people who kind of liked Erica in at least the original release, albeit with caveats. That Catherine manages to make Erica an actual character is (unfortunately) rare, and I could see someone defending the original release if Full Body completely fixed everything.
That being said. It didn't! So impartiality aside, imo it's a load of bullshit, everyone play better trans positive games by other people.
 

Red Arremer

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
12,259
Now that I think of it, I would also throw in Xenoblade Chronicles 2.
That game has a massive issue with the portrayal of female characters being hypersexualized (including fetishization of a robot who is designed to be a minor) in general, but I would argue that even the one female character that isn't overtly sexualized at all times - Mòrag - still portrays gender in an iffy way, one that could easily be construed to be homo- and transphobic.

Mòrag presents as a man, which is played for laughs.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,348
Now that I think of it, I would also throw in Xenoblade Chronicles 2.
That game has a massive issue with the portrayal of female characters being hypersexualized (including fetishization of a robot who is designed to be a minor) in general, but I would argue that even the one female character that isn't overtly sexualized at all times - Mòrag - still portrays gender in an iffy way, one that could easily be construed to be homo- and transphobic.

Mòrag presents as a man, which is played for laughs.

That's a different problem I guess. Also when is Morag being made fun off for her uniform?