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Were there decent role models in ancient times?
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OP
OP
Plato and Aristotle were rich.
Even for post-childhood, living to 70 or 80 in ancient Greece and Rome was probably very uncommon. Perfect data doesn't really exist, but most estimates seem to indicate that the typical person was doing reasonably well if they made it past 50.
(Not that this has much to do with living long enough to develop morals.)
Our morals on our ancestors, then no. The same applies to all of us alive today when we're viewed the same way by our descendants in the future.
The same book also tells you a variety of shit that was just the whims of the day. It even contradicts its own rules and beliefs.
Yeah I edited it after realising I was mixing it up with much later.
Yes. It seemed to be making a broad argument about a society at large, so I thought that countering it by pointing to people who were the exception rather than the norm was a weak stance to take, rather than going right after the false premise about lifespans and the ridiculous notion that morals are some kind of complicated intellectual pursuit that takes several decades to even begin to formulate.
Not according to Diogenes.
"He used to stroll about in full daylight with a lamp; when asked what he was doing, he would answer, "I am looking for a human."
Diogenes looked for a human being but reputedly found nothing but rascals and scoundrels."
EDIT:
"He criticized Plato, disputed his interpretation of Socrates, and sabotaged his lectures, sometimes distracting listeners by bringing food and eating during the discussions." what a prick, haha
"He used to stroll about in full daylight with a lamp; when asked what he was doing, he would answer, "I am looking for a human."
Diogenes looked for a human being but reputedly found nothing but rascals and scoundrels."
EDIT:
"He criticized Plato, disputed his interpretation of Socrates, and sabotaged his lectures, sometimes distracting listeners by bringing food and eating during the discussions." what a prick, haha
He was the ultimate troll.
"When Plato gave Socrates's definition of man as "featherless bipeds" and was much praised for the definition, Diogenes plucked a chicken and brought it into Plato's Academy, saying, "Behold! I've brought you a man." After this incident, "with broad flat nails" was added to Plato's definition."
or
"While Diogenes was relaxing in the morning sunlight, Alexander, thrilled to meet the famous philosopher, asked if there was any favour he might do for him. Diogenes replied, "Yes, stand out of my sunlight." Alexander then declared, "If I were not Alexander, then I should wish to be Diogenes." "If I were not Diogenes, I would also wish to be Diogenes," Diogenes replied."
The Greeks thought women were basically house furniture and that raping young men was a natural way of life. Can't apply modern thinking to thousands of years ago.
Diogenes perfected the art of trolling before the printing press was even invented.
this is a bit of a a misunderstanding. this trended down because child deaths were so high. if you survived to 10 or so you likely were gonna live till 50-60
I feel like it was a rare society that had a general population with good teeth.
EDIT: D'oh, misread
EDIT EDIT: Ah, I'll keep it anyway. Ancient Greeks and Romans had surprisingly good teeth because they didn't eat nearly as much sugar as we do.
Yeah this is a big one. What people considered moral a couple thousand years ago was a very different idea than what we consider it to be today. What a Spartan considered moral would fly in the face of modern society.
This would probably still happen now if it weren't for mutually assured destruction
Historical Jesus was a very good man. Probably had some "cancel-worthy" opinions specially about barren women for some reason, but people killed him before he could become the milkshake duck.
Fuck Alexander lol
This.There's always Diogenes
Diogenes - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Fuck Alexander lol
likely because they got their skull beaten in for showing compassion
I'm sure Jesus had some dissatisfied customers after some shoddy carpentry work who would beg to differ.
Live like Diogenes the cynic, get your butt in a barrel, or follow Epicurus and also get your butt in a barrel, but for funsies.
Morals are unfortunately, despite what a certain document says, not self-evident. While the broadstrokes of what people value can be found - looking after friends, family, valuing honesty, etc - both the particular understandings of those concepts and what drove them could differ considerably - the responsibility towards family means the patriarch will marry off his daughter dammit, be honest because I can't trust you're not a literal backstabber otherwise, etc. And hell, there were disagreements of opinion on particular matters; Herodotus imagines up 'Ethiopians' (no resemblance to the people we call such, long story) and uses them to basically express how imperialism is bad (to rebuke a Persian King, mind). That people did disagree with the status quo is how you get shifts in opinion and ideology, positively and negatively, but they don't always go into the historical record either.
Hoo boy, where to start with Pythagoras, the sects, hiding away knowledge, and the thing with the beans!
After watching The Good Place, I read up on Hypatia of Alexandria. She seemed like a very decent person who was, inevitably, brutally murdered by a gang of religious zealots.
Probably not in a moral sense.
But in philosophy yes, there are many persons for whom you can gain wisdom for yourself that relates to the human experience.
But in philosophy yes, there are many persons for whom you can gain wisdom for yourself that relates to the human experience.
Much learning will not teach understanding
- Heraclitus
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then is not an act but a habit
- Aristotle
An unexamined life is not worth living
- Socrates
Many people can be rolemodels in the sense that you take from them the good and wisdom of their lives, and understand the bad so you do not follow it.- Heraclitus
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then is not an act but a habit
- Aristotle
An unexamined life is not worth living
- Socrates
First, I did address the false premise, so maybe learn to read before unnecessarily quoting me
And second, maybe it was you who countered with a false premise after all
The length of life and eugeria in classical Greece - PubMed
Contrary to the commonly held belief that in antiquity and as late as 1700 A.D. normal lifespan was about 35 years, there are indications that the ancient Greeks lived longer. In a study of all men of renown, living in the 5th and 4th century in Greece, we identified 83 whose date of birth and...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
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Ancient people were primarily concerned with surviving, since they hadn't gotten the best handle on how one does or does not do that. Anyone who made it to 40 was a pretty good role model for finding out the Secrets of Not Die.
Eventually, enough of those survivors collectively came to the realization that not getting in stabbing contests and having a lot of friends were pretty OP survival strategies, and moral role models were born.
Eventually, enough of those survivors collectively came to the realization that not getting in stabbing contests and having a lot of friends were pretty OP survival strategies, and moral role models were born.
I don't know man, the way he wantonly destroyed the property of those law abiding merchants in front of the temple? That's not a good role model. Also, he never considered how turning water into wine might affect the economy, putting thousands of wine yards out of business. Sure, he had good intentions, but he lacks both respect and understanding of sound economic principles.
Now, supply side Jesus, that's a swell dude:
This didnt apply to all societies and specifically where your social status was. Plenty of people lived to be plenty old.
To the thread, you have to remember how much were growing in the last ten years even, and we still see people used as currency in many examples this past century so ... just imagine 1000 years ago, with waaay worse living conditions
That's a study of specific individuals whose lifespans are known to us, which means the data is biased extremely strongly toward the wealthy and powerful. The abstract thoroughly acknowledges this.And second, maybe it was you who countered with a false premise after all
The length of life and eugeria in classical Greece - PubMed
Contrary to the commonly held belief that in antiquity and as late as 1700 A.D. normal lifespan was about 35 years, there are indications that the ancient Greeks lived longer. In a study of all men of renown, living in the 5th and 4th century in Greece, we identified 83 whose date of birth and...
It even suggests the use of slaves for hard labour as a contributing factor to the long recorded lifespans!
It does not tell us much about what the lifespans of typical people were.
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OP, we're going to be considered absolute garbage by a future generation. Every age thinks they have morality figured out, but it's all based on who you are and who you're around.
Too many people see it as a simple, active choice to be "good" or "bad." Realistically, if we were born centuries earlier, the chances that we'd do things we now consider reprehensible are high.
Too many people see it as a simple, active choice to be "good" or "bad." Realistically, if we were born centuries earlier, the chances that we'd do things we now consider reprehensible are high.
Morals of hundreds or thousands of years ago aren't the same as today. Slavery and war (mass killing) weren't really considered amoral until relatively recently (taking the entirety of human history). Hell, as people pointed out in this thread, probably some future forum-like environment will have this same question about us in a thousand years.
Stuff like changing morals is also why you must take any source that, for example, portrays a figure like Spartacus as someone who wanted to free slaves with a pinch of salt. There's no actual evidence that Spartacus was some sort of radical thinker that came up with abolition thousands of years before it happened.
Stuff like changing morals is also why you must take any source that, for example, portrays a figure like Spartacus as someone who wanted to free slaves with a pinch of salt. There's no actual evidence that Spartacus was some sort of radical thinker that came up with abolition thousands of years before it happened.
I think people from ancient times would be appalled looking at us modern people when seeing what we just did in the 20th century, around 80 years ago...