• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

Dog of Bork

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,016
Texas
i think gamers need to learn that that time is over.
I'm good, actually. I'll keep on voting with my wallet to prevent that from happening.
Discussion is a good thing.
Discussion is a good thing. But coming into a thread to say "you nerds/manbabies/gamerstm are weird, it's just a launcher" isn't adding much to the discussion. Neither is "fuck these shitty devs for taking a bribe."

At some point people who aren't interested in the PC ecosystem need to just refrain from adding their bon mots about how steam is a monopoly and did nothing to earn its market share, how people just don't want another exe running, how toxic behavior from devs or Tim Sweeney is HILARIOUS and they can't wait to buy the game based on said behavior, and the like. The same way people who are too invested need to calm the hell down with ridiculous comparisons ("calling POC slurs" comes to mind), immediately going for the throat, and assuming every person who isn't as invested doesn't belong in the conversation.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,876
How is this shit any toxic? I literally don't give a fuck anymore about if a game is in one store or another. To me is not a problem, and it's just another launcher of the bunch.

Am I being toxic? I feel like the internet is so basic in its black and white mentality. This bad, that good.
Why? Is just another point of view and imo more reasonable than the outrage for games that change storefront while staying in the same hardware

It shouldn't have to be explained. Expressing your own opinion is not the same as dismissing the opinion of others.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
116,810
Discussion is a good thing. But coming into a thread to say "you nerds/manbabies/gamerstm are weird, it's just a launcher" isn't adding much to the discussion. Neither is "fuck these shitty devs for taking a bribe."

At some point people who aren't interested in the PC ecosystem need to just refrain from adding their bon mots about how steam is a monopoly and did nothing to earn its market share, how people just don't want another exe running, how toxic behavior from devs or Tim Sweeney is HILARIOUS and they can't wait to buy the game based on said behavior, and the like. The same way people who are too invested need to calm the hell down with ridiculous comparisons ("calling POC slurs" comes to mind), immediately going for the throat, and assuming every person who isn't as invested doesn't belong on the conversation.

I think the issue that I've been seeing is that a lot of people in the anti camp are immediately prepared to assume ANYONE who isn't on board with their stance is ignorant/a troll/shitposting/etc. That's not everyone, of course, but a fair number of people seem to view their opinions as so utterly true and unshakable that anyone who doesn't match them or doesn't view the problem on the same level MUST be acting disingenuously, because if they knew all the facts how could they NOT agree?

There are always going to be levels of reaction to any situation. People coming in and dismissively going "I don't give a shit" is not helping the discussion, but people who are trying to explain why in the long run this kind of thing isn't really that big of a deal aren't the enemy.
 

Dog of Bork

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,016
Texas
Well, at the very least I don't belong to a group that insults and launches death threats to developers.

Also I still have to hear a convincing argument WHY this is a thing. Tim Sweeny dickery aside, what I see is just another launcher without the need of purchasing new hw and a fuckton of people angry for... No reason
In this post you've:
  • Implied that anyone who cares about this insults or launches death threats to developers
  • Invoked "it's just another launcher"
  • Said people have no reason to complain
Maybe you can read a few posts from the last dozen EGS threads to figure that last one out. I feel like your post exemplifies one side of what's wrong with this discussion, even pulling out some of the examples directly from the OP.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,876
I think the issue that I've been seeing is that a lot of people in the anti camp are immediately prepared to assume ANYONE who isn't on board with their stance is ignorant/a troll/shitposting/etc. That's not everyone, of course, but a large number of people seem to view their opinions as so utterly true and unshakable that anyone who doesn't match them or doesn't view the problem on the same level MUST be acting disingenuously, because if they knew all the facts how could they NOT agree?

There are always going to be levels of reaction to any situation. People coming in and dismissively going "I don't give a shit" is not helping the discussion, but people who are trying to explain why in the long run this kind of thing isn't really that big of a deal aren't the enemy.

I don't think people expressing their personal opinions is a problem. People dismissing the opinions and/or concerns of others is a problem. It's the difference between "personally I don't mind the exclusivity or using another client" and "what are you complaining about? It's just another launcher". The first is a perfectly fine opinion, the second is dismissive towards the opinion of others. Sadly, the overwhelming majority of the posts of such nature in EGS threads belong to the second category.
 

True Prophecy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,925
Well, at the very least I don't belong to a group that insults and launches death threats to developers.

Also I still have to hear a convincing argument WHY this is a thing. Tim Sweeny dickery aside, what I see is just another launcher without the need of purchasing new hw and a fuckton of people angry for... No reason

The moment someone told me that the EGS is worse than GFWL is when my point of view became what it is. Want me to have another opinion? Convince me that there is a reason for all this fuckery, attacks to developers included.

I don't attack developers if you look at my post history I totally get why developers take the money and they are free to make that choice.

You are making some very big generalisation about people that are concerned.

I am not here to convince you since you don't seem open to even caring about why it's an issue. I mean Tim's attitude could be enough for some people...

Can I ask you a question? Why do you feel the need to defend a mega corp?
 

Drek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,231
I would say that their big, hastily thrown together mess of sale event was an indication that the store as a whole wasn't doing great.
The majority of their exclusive deals that had already been announced weren't even out by then and a non-trivial number of the developers who signed exclusive deals raised the prices of their games during that sale. Fact one outlines that if Epic was reacting to poor sales they'd likely have waited a while longer and factor two points out that the developers of those games felt good enough about total sales to actually want to raise the price during an epic funded sales event. If sales numbers were that bad you'd think they'd keep the price low knowing Epic was going to subsidize an even deeper discount to move more units.

Epic's $10 off sales event was pretty obviously an early attempt by them to buy some good will more than anything else. If it was to pad sales numbers they'd have come up with some kind of post-sale PR spin to make it sound like a roaring sales success. Instead it was coupled with Sweeney still peddling his "doing it for the gamers and devs" shtick.

Again, the data you are presenting can be interpreted very differently if you take into account various relevant factors. I'll answer the above one by one because I've been a PC gamer for decades and I remember all of these situations.

EGS game sales: Satisfactory and WWZ were sales successes, period. Metro, the CEO straight up declined to give more information. Ubi games, the only reference was that EGS exclusivity pushed people towards uPlay. Nothing else is known. I don't think that the available data paints a picture of sales success for EGS.

Call of Duty: A prime example of consequences taking time to materialize. The Call of Duty franchise experienced a massive decline on PC over the years.

HL2: People forget or don't know what the DRM situation was on PC at the time. Steam had issues but online authentication was already a standard, often accompanied by various dumb shit like install limits.

uPlay: Nobody minds uPlay because it works ok, it has some useful features (like the uplay points to unlock extra stuff) and it's a first-party service.

As for customers not sticking to the rhetoric of online resistance, PC gamers have very much proven otherwise. Games for Windows Live, Starforce, Ubisoft's always-on DRM, Microsoft trying to make paying for online a thing, the Windows Store are some noteworthy examples of PC gamers forcing change through their protest and boycott.
Everything can be interpreted in different ways, sure, and we can dive into the concept of subjectivity if you really want to, but...

EGS game sales: again, all digital storefronts limit available data. So if the data we are being given is comparable to and indicates similar success as other digital storefronts why should we specifically question this data? If this data is as valid as all other anecdotal sales data for other digital storefronts then where is the basis for the EGS being a negative on game sales? It requires being specifically distrustful of both Epic and their partners when given the same data in the same format and frequency of all other digital store front operators, publishers, and developers.

Call of Duty: So the no private servers thing is why CoD has tailed off, despite that specific iteration and its immediate successors being the high point in franchise sales, and not the stagnation of the franchise as a whole that has weakened its base on literally every platform its on? So the only way your interpretation holds up here is if PC gamers as a collective agreed to keep buying CoD for another ~5 years, then at the same time it was waning on consoles said "yeah, lets stop with CoD 'cause of that one time with the servers."

HL2: Some publishers had online DRM, sure. Most were still in the CD key world. Most people shit on those other publishers for their online DRM too. Suddenly everyone put up with it to play HL2, just like they'd been putting up with it to play Warcraft and Diablo from Blizzard via Battle.net. Kind of seems like a clear case of fans in this industry always caving in for the next great game to me.

uPlay: So Anno beat sales expectations, more sales were made through the royalty free uPlay store (where Ubisoft would prefer people buy their games) than projected, and the sales made through Epic's store were at a higher profit margin. And this is an example you're trying to present as a case that Epic Game Store is a negative for publishers. Ubisoft is getting free money from Epic to accelerate their departure from Steam while Epic takes all the flack for it whereas if Ubi just left Steam exclusively for uPlay they'd get similar shit to EA when they left for Origin. Kind of sounds like a gigantic fucking win for Ubi, one I'm kind of surprised Bethesda isn't happily copying to be honest.

Better yet, Ubi now has people framing uPlay as a GOOD THING. Its fucking DRM embedded within DRM when you buy Ubi games off Steam and suddenly "well they give you these points that get you some micro-transaction nicknackery, so that's totally valid".

And yet people wonder why these publishers keep working with Epic. EGS is a basically an a sacrificial medium to accelerate marketwide fragmentation of PC games distribution. Ubi will probably stop selling games on Steam or Epic within the next 5 years, maybe sooner if uPlay+ takes off. EA isn't coming back. Bethesda is doing their own thing. Activision Blizzard has already been on their own island. GoG is still trying to play nice but then CDPR doesn't have the pipeline to support an exclusive path. Microsoft is moving the other way, but at the same time trying to push GamePass to basically devalue discrete game purchases in favor of service/subscription based content.

But yeah, fuck that Sweeney guy.

Now don't mistake my argument as saying he doesn't come across like an asshole. He totally does. But if the problem here is fragmentation/exclusivity taking hold within the PC gaming space EGS isn't the only antagonist in your narrative. In fact they're just the newest, the loudest, and so far the least aggressive.

Why least aggressive? Because all they really care about is keeping games off Steam. EA took their games off everything. Activision Blizzard play with no one else. Bethesda is likely moving in that direction as well. Ubisoft requires their own DRM via Steam. Meanwhile Epic is ok with Ubi selling their "EGS exclusives" on uPlay, Metro Exodus and other EGS "PC exclusives" are on Microsoft's storefront including as part of GamePass, inherently devaluing EGS exclusivity even further. They're basically attacking Steam as a way to seem like an outsider/underdog while in most cases leaving consumers with other ways to play these games on PC without having to touch EGS.

Don't mistake Epic's general incompetence as malevolence.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
116,810
I don't think people expressing their personal opinions is a problem. People dismissing the opinions and/or concerns of others is a problem. It's the difference between "personally I don't mind the exclusivity or using another client" and "what are you complaining about? It's just another launcher". The first is a perfectly fine opinion, the second is dismissive towards the opinion of others. Sadly, the overwhelming majority of the posts of such nature in EGS threads belong to the second category.

Right. We can agree there for sure. There are better and worse ways to express your opinions. Saying "I don't give a shit" in a thread isn't helpful, but just as an example, people get so immediately angry when someone mentions the fact that yes, EGS is basically another dumb PC launcher thing when that could just be their actual opinion.

Speaking personally for myself, I got forced to install so many stupid proprietary clients on PC that I just stopped caring after a while. None of them are good, I'd rather none of them existed and I could just use my start menu to boot games up without middleman software constantly spying on everything I'm doing. But the PC platform clearly does not want that these days so I moved past it. And then my graphics card died. Woof.
 

Wulfram

Member
Mar 3, 2018
1,479
I'm good, actually. I'll keep on voting with my wallet to prevent that from happening.

Discussion is a good thing. But coming into a thread to say "you nerds/manbabies/gamerstm are weird, it's just a launcher" isn't adding much to the discussion. Neither is "fuck these shitty devs for taking a bribe."

At some point people who aren't interested in the PC ecosystem need to just refrain from adding their bon mots about how steam is a monopoly and did nothing to earn its market share, how people just don't want another exe running, how toxic behavior from devs or Tim Sweeney is HILARIOUS and they can't wait to buy the game based on said behavior, and the like. The same way people who are too invested need to calm the hell down with ridiculous comparisons ("calling POC slurs" comes to mind), immediately going for the throat, and assuming every person who isn't as invested doesn't belong in the conversation.

Not caring about the EGS doesn't mean you're not interested in the PC ecosystem
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 42

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
16,939
If we want to really get down to the nitty gritty of this, the biggest issues I see are:

The outliers I noted in OP, those need to stop immediately
The just another launcher posts need to stop as they're mostly just there to piss people off
The general passive-aggressive, sniping, snide attitude from everyone needs to get tempered down

Example: Someone comes into a thread, and for some reason or another, isn't entirely tuned into what's going on. They don't say 'just another launcher', but they ask what the issue is, as they aren't sure. A short read would show they're likely genuine in that.

The usual response is something akin to: 'Educate yourself', 'Oh, this again, go away troll', or 'why don't you care about this?'

If we start off that way, people get confused and get defensive, more snipes come out, etc.

Then flip it to someone haranguing anti-EGS people like I mentioned in the OP. Not everyone is sending death threats or insults to people, far from it. So if you attach one person's actions to an entire group like that, you're bound to get people who want to throw down, because that's not something someone wants to be connected to.
 

True Prophecy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,925
The majority of their exclusive deals that had already been announced weren't even out by then and a non-trivial number of the developers who signed exclusive deals raised the prices of their games during that sale. Fact one outlines that if Epic was reacting to poor sales they'd likely have waited a while longer and factor two points out that the developers of those games felt good enough about total sales to actually want to raise the price during an epic funded sales event. If sales numbers were that bad you'd think they'd keep the price low knowing Epic was going to subsidize an even deeper discount to move more units.

Epic's $10 off sales event was pretty obviously an early attempt by them to buy some good will more than anything else. If it was to pad sales numbers they'd have come up with some kind of post-sale PR spin to make it sound like a roaring sales success. Instead it was coupled with Sweeney still peddling his "doing it for the gamers and devs" shtick.


Everything can be interpreted in different ways, sure, and we can dive into the concept of subjectivity if you really want to, but...

EGS game sales: again, all digital storefronts limit available data. So if the data we are being given is comparable to and indicates similar success as other digital storefronts why should we specifically question this data? If this data is as valid as all other anecdotal sales data for other digital storefronts then where is the basis for the EGS being a negative on game sales? It requires being specifically distrustful of both Epic and their partners when given the same data in the same format and frequency of all other digital store front operators, publishers, and developers.

Call of Duty: So the no private servers thing is why CoD has tailed off, despite that specific iteration and its immediate successors being the high point in franchise sales, and not the stagnation of the franchise as a whole that has weakened its base on literally every platform its on? So the only way your interpretation holds up here is if PC gamers as a collective agreed to keep buying CoD for another ~5 years, then at the same time it was waning on consoles said "yeah, lets stop with CoD 'cause of that one time with the servers."

HL2: Some publishers had online DRM, sure. Most were still in the CD key world. Most people shit on those other publishers for their online DRM too. Suddenly everyone put up with it to play HL2, just like they'd been putting up with it to play Warcraft and Diablo from Blizzard via Battle.net. Kind of seems like a clear case of fans in this industry always caving in for the next great game to me.

uPlay: So Anno beat sales expectations, more sales were made through the royalty free uPlay store (where Ubisoft would prefer people buy their games) than projected, and the sales made through Epic's store were at a higher profit margin. And this is an example you're trying to present as a case that Epic Game Store is a negative for publishers. Ubisoft is getting free money from Epic to accelerate their departure from Steam while Epic takes all the flack for it whereas if Ubi just left Steam exclusively for uPlay they'd get similar shit to EA when they left for Origin. Kind of sounds like a gigantic fucking win for Ubi, one I'm kind of surprised Bethesda isn't happily copying to be honest.

Better yet, Ubi now has people framing uPlay as a GOOD THING. Its fucking DRM embedded within DRM when you buy Ubi games off Steam and suddenly "well they give you these points that get you some micro-transaction nicknackery, so that's totally valid".

And yet people wonder why these publishers keep working with Epic. EGS is a basically an a sacrificial medium to accelerate marketwide fragmentation of PC games distribution. Ubi will probably stop selling games on Steam or Epic within the next 5 years, maybe sooner if uPlay+ takes off. EA isn't coming back. Bethesda is doing their own thing. Activision Blizzard has already been on their own island. GoG is still trying to play nice but then CDPR doesn't have the pipeline to support an exclusive path. Microsoft is moving the other way, but at the same time trying to push GamePass to basically devalue discrete game purchases in favor of service/subscription based content.

But yeah, fuck that Sweeney guy.

Now don't mistake my argument as saying he doesn't come across like an asshole. He totally does. But if the problem here is fragmentation/exclusivity taking hold within the PC gaming space EGS isn't the only antagonist in your narrative. In fact they're just the newest, the loudest, and so far the least aggressive.

Why least aggressive? Because all they really care about is keeping games off Steam. EA took their games off everything. Activision Blizzard play with no one else. Bethesda is likely moving in that direction as well. Ubisoft requires their own DRM via Steam. Meanwhile Epic is ok with Ubi selling their "EGS exclusives" on uPlay, Metro Exodus and other EGS "PC exclusives" are on Microsoft's storefront including as part of GamePass, inherently devaluing EGS exclusivity even further. They're basically attacking Steam as a way to seem like an outsider/underdog while in most cases leaving consumers with other ways to play these games on PC without having to touch EGS.

Don't mistake Epic's general incompetence as malevolence.

Fragmentation is only some people's issue... And I mean no other store holds third party titles from other storefronts.

I don't like Epics business tact or the say Tim talks down to people.

I don't like the idea of throwing money around to establish itself in a market that never asked for it.

And before you say well they are good for Devs! Yeah they are "free" money must always be nice for stability reasons but they are not doing it to help developers they pick and choose who they "help".
 

Drek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,231
True, worse for the consumers overall. But that doesn't stop anyone now, so I'm not sure why it's a consideration. :P
Either way, it's a much better solution for developers, because they get some manner of 'contractual obligation' from the platform holder, to keep upholding them and any of their following projects, rather than getting paid for one game and getting thrown to the wolves after the exclusivity ends.
These developers that took the deal and only have timed exclusivity on their game, what do you think the user reviews on their game will be like elsewhere? Or on their next game? Or any community forums they set up? The internet is nothing if not petty, and it doesn't often forget.
1. Publishers routinely fail to support developers even through project number one so I don't see how you think Epic signing a publisher deal would guarantee anything to anyone.
2. Maybe if the community chooses to not be a toxic shit pit the developer can release their really good games elsewhere and people won't act like goddamn children because a developer made a sound business choice?

Your example is basically a form of internet mob extortion. "well you took that exclusive deal that made a ton of financial sense but now we're going to treat you like a pariah even if we like your games".

Thats absurd. Especially when the storefront their being kept off of fosters a one of the worst cesspits of PC gamers on the planet, including being the ranting ground for someone who recently went on a shooting spree and selling a game that included slave Tetris for a few years.

Rings about as true as the entire "Tencent owns Epic so CHINA!" bullshit. Steam recently delisted a game because of a slight jab at the ruler of China. That game is probably never going back up. Yet Epic are China's puppet storefront to get all that prime PC gamer playtime dirt they'll use to conquer the world?

This gets to the core of what this thread is about. People holding a grudge/feeling personally offended because someone did something that gave them less than their ideal way to buy and play video games. Never mind how beneficial it might be for the developer, what other factors may be at play, or the larger societal ills present on the storefront now being defended by the zeitgeist.

See the toxicity in this mindset?
 

Cecil

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,464
Also I still have to hear a convincing argument WHY this is a thing. Tim Sweeny dickery aside, what I see is just another launcher without the need of purchasing new hw and a fuckton of people angry for... No reason

Not gonna try and convince you. You can feel how you want for it. But for your understanding, here's some reasons as to why people feel it's an issue.

  • That options for where to buy a game is being limited, and thus the options on how your product is packaged and delivered.
  • That these deals are blow to GOG as well as Steam. It's not only the giant that takes as a hit, but the underdog competitor as well.
  • That our options on finding the best deals for our purchases are being severely limited.
  • That some of us actually are finding many features in Steam and GOG Galaxy actually useful, and that we rely on them for good reasons.
  • That it does effect prices and the ability to buy games for people living in other parts of the world then USA and western europe.
  • That it effects Linux/Mac versions of games.
  • That we think that crowdfunding promises, being made by devs who take money from backers many years before release, is actually something they ought to hold up to.
Nothing of that invalidates us understanding the need for smaller devs to find security, but that need doesn't invalidate our opinions either.
 

TheOne

Alt Account
Banned
May 25, 2019
947
No one (read: not nearly as many people as when it began) gets mad at seeing developers/publishers releasing their own games on their own clients. No one is angry that Fortnite is an Epic exclusive. But the idea that a third party game becoming exclusive to a storefront due to the storefront actively pursuing them/offering them cash? That's not what PC gaming has been about.

That's my whole concern with EGS. Steam, Origin, Uplay, Battle.Net and others all worked well in this Eco-environment. EA releases their games on Origin, Ubi on Uplay, Activision and Blizzard on Battle.Net and every others would release their games on whichever launcher they wanted, which frequently ended up on Steam because it's obviously the most popular launcher for good reasons. It seemed like it worked fine for years. I mean, there were reasons to criticize Steam. Everybody knows that. But on the scope on things, it is my understanding that this system pleased most.

Then EGS suddenly starts to get aggressive and offer big bag of cash for anyone willing to sign an exclusivity deal with them. Like what the fuck, this is not what PC gaming is about. They consolify the PC space with this bullshit. Of course I am not pleased with the devs willing to sign a deal with EGS as they are an active part of this trend that is going to unequivocally change things for the worst. I can't read the future, but I know EGS once said that they won't be able to sustain the 88/12% split for long and that someday it'll have to change. Then about exclusivity deal. It certainly won't last for long either. Right now many devs wish for that EGS call but then what happen when they stop calling anyone when EGS finally have the revenue share they want?

I honestly don't mind EGS as a launcher. I once had no qualm with it. I purchased Shadow Complex on it and I didn't mind. But I'm not going to support it and the devs lining behind it for now because of how they do business. If it works best for these devs and their families then good for them. Honestly. But this safe heaven some these devs have found with EGS? It's slowly destroying the very foundation of PC gaming. I am not going to feel bad about my choice of boycotting EGS if the choices they make today are ending up biting their ass in the long run. They do what they think it's best for them, their company, their families and I do what I think it's best for me and the PC gaming space.

That said, if you, as an individual, are still willing to purchase from EGS, you do you. I won't make you feel like shit. I won't try to convince you to stop doing it. I feel like at this point, with all this toxicity, I'd rather take a position of live and let live. I've seen countless great things turning to shit over the course of my life and rarely have I been able to make a difference. As a consumer point of view, all good things eventually end. The key is to ride them as much as you can then migrate on the next great thing.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,128
Example: Someone comes into a thread, and for some reason or another, isn't entirely tuned into what's going on. They don't say 'just another launcher', but they ask what the issue is, as they aren't sure. A short read would show they're likely genuine in that.

The usual response is something akin to: 'Educate yourself', 'Oh, this again, go away troll', or 'why don't you care about this?'

If we start off that way, people get confused and get defensive, more snipes come out, etc.

Then flip it to someone haranguing anti-EGS people like I mentioned in the OP. Not everyone is sending death threats or insults to people, far from it. So if you attach one person's actions to an entire group like that, you're bound to get people who want to throw down, because that's not something someone wants to be connected to.
I think part of the problem in this case is that once you have been asked the same time too many times, it is hard in your mind to interiorize that not everyone has the same knowledge and you just think it is a troll (in that case, the person explaining normally has done it several times during weeks). You end up being tired of answering the same questions forever getting the same answers all the time.

But yes, I think both sides should do better (and the extreme side should just go die).
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,876
Everything can be interpreted in different ways, sure, and we can dive into the concept of subjectivity if you really want to, but...

EGS game sales: again, all digital storefronts limit available data. So if the data we are being given is comparable to and indicates similar success as other digital storefronts why should we specifically question this data? If this data is as valid as all other anecdotal sales data for other digital storefronts then where is the basis for the EGS being a negative on game sales? It requires being specifically distrustful of both Epic and their partners when given the same data in the same format and frequency of all other digital store front operators, publishers, and developers.

Call of Duty: So the no private servers thing is why CoD has tailed off, despite that specific iteration and its immediate successors being the high point in franchise sales, and not the stagnation of the franchise as a whole that has weakened its base on literally every platform its on? So the only way your interpretation holds up here is if PC gamers as a collective agreed to keep buying CoD for another ~5 years, then at the same time it was waning on consoles said "yeah, lets stop with CoD 'cause of that one time with the servers."

HL2: Some publishers had online DRM, sure. Most were still in the CD key world. Most people shit on those other publishers for their online DRM too. Suddenly everyone put up with it to play HL2, just like they'd been putting up with it to play Warcraft and Diablo from Blizzard via Battle.net. Kind of seems like a clear case of fans in this industry always caving in for the next great game to me.

uPlay: So Anno beat sales expectations, more sales were made through the royalty free uPlay store (where Ubisoft would prefer people buy their games) than projected, and the sales made through Epic's store were at a higher profit margin. And this is an example you're trying to present as a case that Epic Game Store is a negative for publishers. Ubisoft is getting free money from Epic to accelerate their departure from Steam while Epic takes all the flack for it whereas if Ubi just left Steam exclusively for uPlay they'd get similar shit to EA when they left for Origin. Kind of sounds like a gigantic fucking win for Ubi, one I'm kind of surprised Bethesda isn't happily copying to be honest.

Better yet, Ubi now has people framing uPlay as a GOOD THING. Its fucking DRM embedded within DRM when you buy Ubi games off Steam and suddenly "well they give you these points that get you some micro-transaction nicknackery, so that's totally valid".

And yet people wonder why these publishers keep working with Epic. EGS is a basically an a sacrificial medium to accelerate marketwide fragmentation of PC games distribution. Ubi will probably stop selling games on Steam or Epic within the next 5 years, maybe sooner if uPlay+ takes off. EA isn't coming back. Bethesda is doing their own thing. Activision Blizzard has already been on their own island. GoG is still trying to play nice but then CDPR doesn't have the pipeline to support an exclusive path. Microsoft is moving the other way, but at the same time trying to push GamePass to basically devalue discrete game purchases in favor of service/subscription based content.

But yeah, fuck that Sweeney guy.

Now don't mistake my argument as saying he doesn't come across like an asshole. He totally does. But if the problem here is fragmentation/exclusivity taking hold within the PC gaming space EGS isn't the only antagonist in your narrative. In fact they're just the newest, the loudest, and so far the least aggressive.

Why least aggressive? Because all they really care about is keeping games off Steam. EA took their games off everything. Activision Blizzard play with no one else. Bethesda is likely moving in that direction as well. Ubisoft requires their own DRM via Steam. Meanwhile Epic is ok with Ubi selling their "EGS exclusives" on uPlay, Metro Exodus and other EGS "PC exclusives" are on Microsoft's storefront including as part of GamePass, inherently devaluing EGS exclusivity even further. They're basically attacking Steam as a way to seem like an outsider/underdog while in most cases leaving consumers with other ways to play these games on PC without having to touch EGS.

Don't mistake Epic's general incompetence as malevolence.

Thank you for the detailed response, as I said to the other poster it seems like we see things very differently and as long as the available data is insufficient to draw a definitive conclusion we will be going around in circles. If you still want me to answer something tag me and I will but for now I think it's best if we agree to disagree.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 42

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
16,939
I think part of the problem in this case is that once you have been asked the same time too many times, it is hard in your mind to interiorize that not everyone has the same knowledge and you just think it is a troll (in that case, the person explaining normally has done it several times during weeks). You end up being tired of answering the same questions forever getting the same answers all the time.

But yes, I think both sides should do better (and the extreme side should just go die).

Having to repeat something is not an excuse to insult somebody.

Posts that cast "just another launcher" as an illegitimate opinion need to stop

If we're at the point where someone can't see merit in not wanting to deal with EGS stuff, then the divide gulf is too far and we're never getting anywhere.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,128
Having to repeat something is not an excuse to insult somebody.



If we're at the point where someone can't see merit in not wanting to deal with EGS stuff, then the divide gulf is too far and we're never getting anywhere.
I am not talking about insults in that case, but rather of the first two statements: 'Educate yourself', 'Oh, this again, go away troll'. I see them as lashing out when you are just annoyed by repeating yourself several times in the same topic.
 

Mobyduck

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,100
Brazil
League is not a third party exclusive, Minecraft is not party exclusive, and Newgrounds (or Kongregate, ArmorGames and so on) do not buy third party exlusivity rights.

As a small correction, I know for a fact that Kongregate and Armor Games do buy third party exclusives. Maybe not anymore now that flash games are not as well regarded, but that was their bread and butter back in the day.
 

Drek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,231
Fragmentation is only some people's issue... And I mean no other store holds third party titles from other storefronts.

I don't like Epics business tact or the say Tim talks down to people.

I don't like the idea of throwing money around to establish itself in a market that never asked for it.

And before you say well they are good for Devs! Yeah they are "free" money must always be nice for stability reasons but they are not doing it to help developers they pick and choose who they "help".
Point 1 - I'm personally concerned about fragmentation, though see it as a foregone conclusion at this point, and not because of Epic. I don't think the distinction between Ubisoft or EA signing on to publish a game and own the IP for all time, locking it behind their storefront, is meaningfully better than Epic funding a game that gets to be the developers property and released anywhere else 12 months later.

Point 2 - sure. He's clearly a shithead.

Point 3 - Everyone establishes themselves by throwing money around when moving into new markets. This is the history of MS basically in all non-OS segments. Sony as well. Valve used the cache of HL2 to extort their publisher and customers into accepting Steam in the first place. Money is just another form of power used to exact a desired outcome by the powerful.

Point 4 - Not a point I believe needs making as its obvious of benefit to the developers and I can't believe 99% of all people would be naive enough to think Epic would be doing it for altruistic reasons.

So at the end of the day for me I'm going to make my decisions based on the availability of a game, the quality of the game, and the developer on a case by case basis.

Taking EGS money isn't going to get me to not support SuperGiant, a personal favorite of mine, especially when Hades is an exceptionally good game.

Same with Bithell Games and John Wick.

I'll take Epic's free games too, because fuck it, I like free.

I didn't buy Anno there but it won't stop me from buying it on uPlay once I clear some strat game backlog.

I'll take the non-EGS alternative whenever possible but I'm not going to "punish" good developers making good games for a smart business decision that makes it easier for them to continue doing business, and I'm expecting the major third parties to further their walled gardens so I'll just buy in now to the ones I'm able to tolerate.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 42

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
16,939
I am not talking about insults in that case, but rather of the first two statements: 'Educate yourself', 'Oh, this again, go away troll'. I see them as lashing out when you are just annoyed by repeating yourself several times in the same topic.

People lashing out is why we have a 25 page topic saying we need to calm down.

People lashing out is why I asked for an account delete a month or so ago. I ended up changing my mind.

It's been months now and it's gotten worse, not better.

OK, so why am I the one who must be silenced?

Nobody is silencing anybody - if you roll into a thread and say you don't care and others shouldn't, and browbeat someone for not wanting to use things, then the snowball starts rolling down the mountain and we're back in the shit again.
 

Cecil

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,464
OK, so why am I the one who must be silenced?

Because the argument you're defending there is really only a shortcut to try and disqualify other people's arguments and opinions, without actually replying to then. "It's just another launcher" only means "I don't see any issues, so how can you possibly see any?".
 

Deleted member 3058

User requested account closure
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,728
You're seriously arguing that Jason 'Blacklisted Press Sneak Fuck' Schreier is so worried about ruffling publishers' feathers that he's going easy on Epic?

Gonna have to walk me through the reasoning on that one, what with how it runs completely counter to his entire ethos as journalist, as demonstrated over years of reporting.
Publishers? Where'd you get that? No. He's talking about the developers that give press the most access - indie devs.
 

Kareha

Banned
Jun 15, 2018
1,460
United Kingdom
How does the wariness of Tencents involvement (a 49% share in Epic) is just based on hate?

We are talking about Tencent, who literally helped creating the social credit system in China, is giving data from WeChat, QQ and Weibo to the chinese government and is involved into the uyghur situation in West China.


Edit: Nevertheless, before I forget it. Death Threats for such a minor thing are horrible and I feel sorry for you to receive that and can not even understand people who write stuff like that because of a game they can just play 1 year later.

This is the reason i refuse to install the software. Death threats are fucking stupid btw, don't be an idiot or you will probably go to prison.
 

water_wendi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,354
Ideally the hate will stop, but the threat of the hate will persist as a deterrent. But if the tactic fails eventually it's going to recede, since only the most determined will permeate it. Just as Epic Games plans, eventually people will come to accept the Epic Games Store as a persistent thing, like a growth that's metastasized and too far gone to cut away. Maybe it'll even get better as time goes on, miracles do happen sometimes. It's just going to cause a lot of pain to a lot of people in the process, and it'd be a lot better if it didn't have to play out that way.
ive heard things like this before but never with games.
 

TheOne

Alt Account
Banned
May 25, 2019
947
Point 1 - I'm personally concerned about fragmentation, though see it as a foregone conclusion at this point, and not because of Epic. I don't think the distinction between Ubisoft or EA signing on to publish a game and own the IP for all time, locking it behind their storefront, is meaningfully better than Epic funding a game that gets to be the developers property and released anywhere else 12 months later.

Point 2 - sure. He's clearly a shithead.

Point 3 - Everyone establishes themselves by throwing money around when moving into new markets. This is the history of MS basically in all non-OS segments. Sony as well. Valve used the cache of HL2 to extort their publisher and customers into accepting Steam in the first place. Money is just another form of power used to exact a desired outcome by the powerful.

Point 4 - Not a point I believe needs making as its obvious of benefit to the developers and I can't believe 99% of all people would be naive enough to think Epic would be doing it for altruistic reasons.

So at the end of the day for me I'm going to make my decisions based on the availability of a game, the quality of the game, and the developer on a case by case basis.

Taking EGS money isn't going to get me to not support SuperGiant, a personal favorite of mine, especially when Hades is an exceptionally good game.

Same with Bithell Games and John Wick.

I'll take Epic's free games too, because fuck it, I like free.

I didn't buy Anno there but it won't stop me from buying it on uPlay once I clear some strat game backlog.

I'll take the non-EGS alternative whenever possible but I'm not going to "punish" good developers making good games for a smart business decision that makes it easier for them to continue doing business, and I'm expecting the major third parties to further their walled gardens so I'll just buy in now to the ones I'm able to tolerate.

Good for you my friend. I hope you'll enjoy every single game you've mentioned that is exclusive to EGS. I am serious about it.

Meanwhile, I'll boycott every single one of them because of my convictions. Games on other launchers for sure aren't on short supplies. I am glad we can each take our stance and benefit from it in our own way.
 

True Prophecy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,925
Point 1 - I'm personally concerned about fragmentation, though see it as a foregone conclusion at this point, and not because of Epic. I don't think the distinction between Ubisoft or EA signing on to publish a game and own the IP for all time, locking it behind their storefront, is meaningfully better than Epic funding a game that gets to be the developers property and released anywhere else 12 months later.

Point 2 - sure. He's clearly a shithead.

Point 3 - Everyone establishes themselves by throwing money around when moving into new markets. This is the history of MS basically in all non-OS segments. Sony as well. Valve used the cache of HL2 to extort their publisher and customers into accepting Steam in the first place. Money is just another form of power used to exact a desired outcome by the powerful.

Point 4 - Not a point I believe needs making as its obvious of benefit to the developers and I can't believe 99% of all people would be naive enough to think Epic would be doing it for altruistic reasons.

So at the end of the day for me I'm going to make my decisions based on the availability of a game, the quality of the game, and the developer on a case by case basis.

Taking EGS money isn't going to get me to not support SuperGiant, a personal favorite of mine, especially when Hades is an exceptionally good game.

Same with Bithell Games and John Wick.

I'll take Epic's free games too, because fuck it, I like free.

I didn't buy Anno there but it won't stop me from buying it on uPlay once I clear some strat game backlog.

I'll take the non-EGS alternative whenever possible but I'm not going to "punish" good developers making good games for a smart business decision that makes it easier for them to continue doing business, and I'm expecting the major third parties to further their walled gardens so I'll just buy in now to the ones I'm able to tolerate.

I would never tell you not to use EGS or that your bad for doing so. Your clearly a passionate person and you prefer to support the studios you like fair enough.

I really was looking forward to Control as I love remedy but I'm now buying it on Xbox as I don't want to support EGS or EPIC.

Mech warrior the most recent one that hurt for me I have no choice but to wait.

I don't feel I'm hurting the developers not buying into EGS because they got a massive payday that has secured them.

If I can not vote with my wallet what else can I do?

I know that money gets thrown around in this capitalist world but I don't like it and frankly never will, EGS could have existed as it always had and made itself something worth investing in without paying everyone off.

Tim has admitted multiple times that he knows the store is barebones and money is all they have. Also some posters do think they are altruistic, Tim often talks about being the saviour of PC gaming because of his 12% cut.
 

EloKa

GSP
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,909
As a small correction, I know for a fact that Kongregate and Armor Games do buy third party exclusives. Maybe not anymore now that flash games are not as well regarded, but that was their bread and butter back in the day.
(Afaik) they only funded those games but they didn't buy exclusivity rights to already finished games. But if my info is wrong then I'll take yours instead.
 

Sidebuster

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,419
California
People lashing out is why we have a 25 page topic saying we need to calm down.

People lashing out is why I asked for an account delete a month or so ago. I ended up changing my mind.

It's been months now and it's gotten worse, not better.



Nobody is silencing anybody - if you roll into a thread and say you don't care and others shouldn't, and browbeat someone for not wanting to use things, then the snowball starts rolling down the mountain and we're back in the shit again.

Do you think there is even any possible fix for this? The moderation team had their staff post, but lately they have seemed to not care to enforce it anymore. If people can't be bothered to inform themselves about what's going on after months of threads, they shouldn't be posting. Reducing and generalizing arguments shouldn't be okay like you say. But there's no iron fist to enforce it.

Edit: I'd like to add that I too have been considering account deletion. It seems the reasonable option because I just can't stand explaining for the nth time why I have the opinion I do only to be met with no response then just the next page the same "honest question" pops up again. The same reductionist argument pops up again. the same generalizing pops up again.

It's so tiring.
 

Jebusman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,099
Halifax, NS
I'll take the non-EGS alternative whenever possible but I'm not going to "punish" good developers making good games for a smart business decision that makes it easier for them to continue doing business, and I'm expecting the major third parties to further their walled gardens so I'll just buy in now to the ones I'm able to tolerate.

See this is where I have an issue with the terminology being used.

A consumer choosing not to purchase a game isn't punishing the developer. That implies they were already entitled to my money and now I'm withholding it from them. They never were entitled to anything, and literally any factor for a consumer choosing not to purchase something is a valid one, even if it is as petty as "I'm not buying it if it's exclusive to 'x' store". It's a conscious choice the developer has made to take that deal and this is part of the consequence.

It's their job to convince me why their product is worth my time and money, both limited quantities. Maybe the quality of the game might be worth my time, but the deal they're offering me to obtain it isn't worth my money, and to see this opinion being summed up by devs and the press as just "gamers rise up" and entitled manbaby rhetoric only makes it more maddening.

From my consumer perspective, choosing to take this deal isn't a "smart" business decision for the industry at large. It's an easy one that definitely lets the chosen few breathe easier, but one that seems to have conditioned a few devs into holding their customers in open contempt, something that long term doesn't seem like the best business decision in the world.

Also

Point 4 - Not a point I believe needs making as its obvious of benefit to the developers and I can't believe 99% of all people would be naive enough to think Epic would be doing it for altruistic reasons.

Considering how much Tim has gone out in front of this to try and convince people that Epic is 100% doing this to topple the evil Valve regime and give back to the developers what others refuse to, and how the gaming press mostly repeated this verbatim without pushing back or questioning him on anything, I don't think you realize how naive people can be.
 
Last edited:

Wulfram

Member
Mar 3, 2018
1,479
Nobody is silencing anybody - if you roll into a thread and say you don't care and others shouldn't, and browbeat someone for not wanting to use things, then the snowball starts rolling down the mountain and we're back in the shit again.

If the thread is about "I care and you should", then people are entitled to make the opposing argument. If your point is that people shouldn't browbeat people then fine, but don't single out one particular point of view for it.
 
Last edited:

Spectone

Member
If we're at the point where someone can't see merit in not wanting to deal with EGS stuff, then the divide gulf is too far and we're never getting anywhere.

I didn't really have an opinion about the EGS until I started to read comments on articles about games being released on the EGS. The extreme negativity and childish behavior of the anti EGS commenters really soured the whole thing. Now I really wish they would shut up.

It's not that I don't understand their concerns but frankly I don't care, their negativity is polluting discourse all over the place. It makes it very hard to understand what their actual issue is.

At this point I might just leave resetera if this is the future level of discourse.
 

Mobyduck

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,100
Brazil
(Afaik) they only funded those games but they didn't buy exclusivity rights to already finished games. But if my info is wrong then I'll take yours instead.
You'd see both. They'd sometimes pay a well-known developer to make a sequel to one of their games and make it exclusive, and sometimes they'd go to auction-like sites to buy the rights to ready (or almost ready) to go games, usually for a month and with the requirement to have that site's logo show up in the intro.

But also, as I said, might be different nowadays. (I'm actually happily surprised those sites still exist, as I spent most of my young years playing games there)
 

TheRuralJuror

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,505
This has kinda been my point too... everyone needs to acknowledge that what their think the "point" of their platform is may not be true for everyone else, lack of ability to realize other people don't think the same and that's ok is what gets people in to this mess.

Is the "point" of PCs for you having open architecture, access to games in every (or many) digital stores, and modding and customizing this and that?

For someone else they may care not the least bit about any of that. The point to PC gaming for them is just to occupy some down time in their lives and nothing more. Perhaps they aren't invested in any long term future on the platform, or don't feel it's at risk by games appearing one place and not another.

Some of the people in this thread IMO are assuming that their POV is the way everyone else should feel and see the platform, when plenty of people have 100% opposite and different POVs, and there is not a single correct POV that is better than the other imo.

No one is assuming anything except that coming into a thread about the discourse surrounding EGS just to talk about how businesses aren't your friend as if you've stumbled upon some enlightened viewpoint is a large part of the problem. If we're being real, you've had nothing to say about other than a couple of sentences about the toxic discourse until it was pointed out and even still most of your posts are the same old "what about people who don't care or understand" stuff. You're just on about the same old arguments from any other egs topic while continually saying people want you to see their point of view or whatever it is you keep repeating.

Regarding the actual topic of the thread, I find your behavior a prime example of why these topics devolve into what we see around here, your first contribution was to defend EGS while saying you were ignorant on the topic. If I'm being honest, I don't give a single shit if you support EGS. I do find it antagonistic to come into threads that are clearly volatile and write some some ignorant stuff like "well I don't know what the issue is here, but let me share my uninformed opinion about how I don't care anyhow."

It's like when Eitka was going through his struggles and people had to come in and over put in their two cents. The biggest lesson that many of you can learn is that just because this is a forum, you don't HAVE to add your opinion to every topic around here. For example, if you don't like Jim sterling, maybe stay out of Jim sterling threads rather than come in and bitch about Jim sterling. If crossplay isn't a big deal to you, maybe don't come tell everyone in a thread who are passionate over the feature that you don't care. It's the source of a lot of drama around here. Even worst, after it's been explained multiple times, you're still on about people just wanting you to see things through their POV because that makes it easier for you to ignore criticism or maybe gain a little self-awareness. And I'm sorry if it seems like I'm ragging on you, but you're honestly a prime example of what happens in egs topics, hell most topics around here. It's fine if you're uninformed, but there are less disingenuous ways to get that across.

Also for anyone who feels the need to point it out. I'm sure most of us are painfully aware that businesses aren't our pals. It isn't a unique viewpoint that any of you stumbled upon that you need to continually post every single day.
 
Last edited:

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,559
Epic coming into it as an outsider with a big wallet purchasing and removing games from the other stores/launchers stings a bit more.

Just wanted to point out that Epic isn't really an outsider when it comes to PC gaming. They've been making PC games since before Valve was even around, they have one of the most popular PC game engines, Unreal, which has been around for about 2 decades now, and Fortnite is a cultural phenomena and one of the most popular PC games around. Whether or not you like their company or their actions, when you already have one of the #1 games and the game engine that powers a large portion of the industry, opening your own storefront is a natural move to try to keep expanding. And if all the other storefronts have taught anything, it's that the only way you can make headway against the entrenched industry leader is by providing huge incentives for both publishers (exclusivity deals, revshare) and gamers (free games).
 
Last edited:

Drek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,231
Good for you my friend. I hope you'll enjoy every single game you've mentioned that is exclusive to EGS. I am serious about it.

Meanwhile, I'll boycott every single one of them because of my convictions. Games on other launchers for sure aren't on short supplies. I am glad we can each take our stance and benefit from it in our own way.
So follow up question then:
Is your boycott of EGS and when a EGS exclusive you find interesting releases elsewhere you'll consider it sans-bias, or is this something where you won't buy game that ever took Epic's deal?

I would never tell you not to use EGS or that your bad for doing so. Your clearly a passionate person and you prefer to support the studios you like fair enough.

I really was looking forward to Control as I love remedy but I'm now buying it on Xbox as I don't want to support EGS or EPIC.

Mech warrior the most recent one that hurt for me I have no choice but to wait.

I don't feel I'm hurting the developers not buying into EGS because they got a massive payday that has secured them.
So I think Control is an interesting case. Remedy was basically MS exclusive for the last nearly a decade until this. Alan Wake made it on Steam but Quantum Break didn't. Control is now more widely available than both of their previous games, including more PC availability if it's on Xbox PC. I'm not suggesting that means we should all gladly buy on EGS, but for Remedy this isn't a restriction of access versus what they're used to.

So this is where the EGS rage concerns me. Not supporting EGS and by proxy not being able to buy games from a developer you like makes complete sense to me. Holding s grudge against a dev for taking the deal or suggesting that they should have stuck with the traditional one sided publishing deals more common in thr industry? I don't get that.

This is worse than unrestricted universal access for consumers, sure, but developers know what they need to make the games they make, so if that involves taking mo eye from Epic that's their choice and no ill will is warranted.

No developer is entitled to a sale but no one is entitled to a game either. No dev wants to restrict access to customers for thr fuck of it. I'd just like to see people keep that in mind when discussing the specific games EGS is signing.
 

ShinUltramanJ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,950
The ecosystem was already fragmented before Epic arrived though. It seems like people were largely okay with Origin, UPlay, Battle.Net, League of Legends launcher, etc but for whatever reason EGS is untenable -- even though the EGS has predominatly timed exclusives, while titles like Diablo and Battlefield are permanent and forever exclusive.

It's the same reason why people are okay with Forza being Xbox exclusive, but pissed when Microsoft locked down Rise of the Tomb Raider for one year.

People understand the difference between first and third party exclusives on consoles, but completely forget the difference when it comes to PC.
 

Deleted member 3058

User requested account closure
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,728
Ah, yes...the journalist known as Press Sneak Fuck, someone best known for not alienating prominent developers.

No, in all likelihood, those tweets are the natural by-product of having a perspective informed by awareness of the kind of decision-making developers have to make on a day to day basis, as well as the issues roiling the industry at large. Being a gamer and caring about the overall health of the games industry aren't mutually exclusive things.

I don't understand the idea that having issues with the EGS precludes having empathy for a developer that decides to make an exclusivity deal with it. You can criticize the EGS as a platform, think any move that reduces choice is fundamentally flawed, and still be generally understanding of the fact that one of the organizing forces here is the volatility Jason spoke of and the manner in which it can make the EGS seem like a potential lifeline.
There's nothing wrong with having empathy for developers. Hell, having empathy for developers is one of the reasons why this forum is more tolerable than other places to discuss games on the net. It's what makes his reporting on the working conditions at the larger devs so compelling.

It's just, in this context, when you consider the perspective of the developers you have the most access to (the more successful indie devs, precisely the ones that EGS are onboarding.. because they sure as hell are turning away the smaller indie devs) at the near exclusion of everyone else that you start seeing weird takes like his recent tweets.
 

xeroborn55

Member
Oct 27, 2017
955
Not gonna try and convince you. You can feel how you want for it. But for your understanding, here's some reasons as to why people feel it's an issue.

  • That options for where to buy a game is being limited, and thus the options on how your product is packaged and delivered.
  • That these deals are blow to GOG as well as Steam. It's not only the giant that takes as a hit, but the underdog competitor as well.
  • That our options on finding the best deals for our purchases are being severely limited.
  • That some of us actually are finding many features in Steam and GOG Galaxy actually useful, and that we rely on them for good reasons.
  • That it does effect prices and the ability to buy games for people living in other parts of the world then USA and western europe.
  • That it effects Linux/Mac versions of games.
  • That we think that crowdfunding promises, being made by devs who take money from backers many years before release, is actually something they ought to hold up to.
Nothing of that invalidates us understanding the need for smaller devs to find security, but that need doesn't invalidate our opinions either.
I 100% agree with Reinhardt. Epic is giving away free games, several of which i would have bought at some point so there's that. I'm all for giving dev's a bigger % of sales. I don't take the exclusives personally. If they have games that I want to play I'll buy them. Same with blizzard and battle.net and EA and Origin.

the shitstorm over the $10 discount was mindblowing. I got $10 off hades and outer wilds both. people were so upset by this lol. I couldn't believe it.

I don't agree with everything epic has done, and I don't trust their motivations with the EGS at all, but at the same time if they present a compelling product and give me a reason to engage with it (ie. they have games i want to play) then i will.

I quoted this post to respond to the 7 bullet points. I'm just going to go in order.

1. not really sure what that means, or at least the negative impact of that statement is unclear. what do you mean??
2. this is a competitive marketplace. Epic owes steam and gog nothing.
3. Do you mean that because the game is only on EGS we can't wait for sales on other platforms? This is nothing new in the digital marketplace. Where am i supposed to buy kindle books besides amazon?
4. This is the most logical argument and where i think Epic deserves the most criticism. It depends on which features of the other services you value, to me the only thing i really miss from steam is the excellent native controller support. Which, to be fair, took steam a decade+ to implement. Its also a little disingenuous to paint valve/steam as taking an active approach to adding features. They do the bare goddamned minimum at every opportunity. to pretend otherwise is straight-up false.
5. Might have a point here. I wouldn't know.
6. You can't please everyone, and ignoring a tiny percentage of the user base (linux) seems reasonable at the start. I would never game on a mac so have no opinion either way there. I feel like if your plan is to game on a mac/linux you are accepting that compatibility will be poor.
7. It is inarguably shitty for kickstarted/patreon games to promise one thing and then do another. However, a little empathy will go a long way here (as someone who has more than dabbled in game dev)... it is a very difficult, expensive, and time consuming thing to do. If, after years of hard work, a dev chooses to take the epic payday i don't fault them at all.
 

Deleted member 8791

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,383
Could we try having a calm discussion about EGS just to see how it goes? I can state my own personal opinion. Context: not really played on PC outside of Football Manager in the past, which I played through Stream. Mostly a console gamer, in the past both Nintendo and Sony but nowadays only Switch.

EGS is trying to build of the success of Fortnite to setup their own PC store front. The current market leader, Steam, has such a big share that you might as well call it a monopoly. For now Steam does most things really well despite having a monopoly, and most users of it are happy with the old status quo: not all devs are happy though, espescially with how much of the cake they get to eat. Epic decided to not wait while they build up a store with the features to challenge Steam, but rather launch it barebones and force people to their store by getting timed exclusives. Since this has been basically unheard of in the PC space, it obviously blows up, espescially since quite a few games were old kickstarted games with promises of coming to Steam.

I think the way Epic is going about things are both understandable and wrong. Apparently the store has seen little improvements since launch; if they improved it better and more often I think more would be a bit happier and see the end goal of being as good as Steam maybe being possible. "Stealing" games commited to coming to Steam is also a mistake when so many games are releasing on PC anyway. And I also think they should try to make a feature or two that doesn't exist on Steam so they aren't just worse than Steam in every aspect.

Despite this, I don't think monopolies are a good thing long term. I don't think the tactics currently used by Epic will be as needed once they get closer to Steam and they can compete on more equal terms. That's when both companies need to really listen to both consumers and developers and try and keep both happy. I can of course sympathize with the people who have their whole library on Steam and feel correctly that as things currently stand, Steam is by far good enough and here we have a competitor that might eventually be good enough but currently don't cut it.

Well that's my honest opinions and I'm all for some good spirited discussions surrounding them.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,128
People lashing out is why we have a 25 page topic saying we need to calm down.

People lashing out is why I asked for an account delete a month or so ago. I ended up changing my mind.

It's been months now and it's gotten worse, not better.

Nobody is silencing anybody - if you roll into a thread and say you don't care and others shouldn't, and browbeat someone for not wanting to use things, then the snowball starts rolling down the mountain and we're back in the shit again.
True, we should do better and not act like that.

As I said in the PM, I am happy you decided to stick with us and really hope you feel safer now.
So follow up question then:
Is your boycott of EGS and when a EGS exclusive you find interesting releases elsewhere you'll consider it sans-bias, or is this something where you won't buy game that ever took Epic's deal?


So I think Control is an interesting case. Remedy was basically MS exclusive for the last nearly a decade until this. Alan Wake made it on Steam but Quantum Break didn't. Control is now more widely available than both of their previous games, including more PC availability if it's on Xbox PC. I'm not suggesting that means we should all gladly buy on EGS, but for Remedy this isn't a restriction of access versus what they're used to.

So this is where the EGS rage concerns me. Not supporting EGS and by proxy not being able to buy games from a developer you like makes complete sense to me. Holding s grudge against a dev for taking the deal or suggesting that they should have stuck with the traditional one sided publishing deals more common in thr industry? I don't get that.

This is worse than unrestricted universal access for consumers, sure, but developers know what they need to make the games they make, so if that involves taking mo eye from Epic that's their choice and no ill will is warranted.

No developer is entitled to a sale but no one is entitled to a game either. No dev wants to restrict access to customers for thr fuck of it. I'd just like to see people keep that in mind when discussing the specific games EGS is signing.
Not supporting EGS only means having to wait 1 year for the game to launch in Steam (or other platforms). It doesnt have to mean having to swear off the developer (and less in some cases like in Control were the deal was done by the publisher not the dev). Some people might swear off developers if they think their answer is particularly bad, but that is not most of the case (most of the times you see people saying "see you next year" which is also a banneable offense in era).

Also, Quantum Break is on Steam:
 

Drek

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,231
See this is where I have an issue with the terminology being used.

A consumer choosing not to purchase a game isn't punishing the developer. That implies they were already entitled to my money and now I'm withholding it from them. They never were entitled to anything, and literally any factor for a consumer choosing not to purchase something is a valid one, even if it is as petty as "I'm not buying it if it's exclusive to 'x' store". It's a conscious choice the developer has made to take that deal and this is part of the consequence.

It's their job to convince me why their product is worth my time and money, both limited quantities. Maybe the quality of the game might be worth my time, but the deal they're offering me to obtain it isn't worth my money, and to see this opinion being summed up by devs and the press as just "gamers rise up" and entitled manbaby rhetoric only makes it more maddening.

From my consumer perspective, choosing to take this deal isn't a "smart" business decision for the industry at large. It's an easy one that definitely lets the chosen few breathe easier, but one that seems to have conditioned a few devs into holding their customers in open contempt, something that long term doesn't seem like the best business decision in the world.
The post I quoted suggested that once EGS exclusive games would receive a harsh reception in other platforms. No one is entitled to a sale or a game, sure, but developers are entitled to fair treatment and making a financial choice shouldn't be a Scarlett letter on them and their game because the money came from a shithead. It's not like Sweeney is an alt-right shitbag or something where there is actual moral grounds of objection to association,
 

Cecil

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,464
I 100% agree with Reinhardt. Epic is giving away free games, several of which i would have bought at some point so there's that. I'm all for giving dev's a bigger % of sales. I don't take the exclusives personally. If they have games that I want to play I'll buy them. Same with blizzard and battle.net and EA and Origin.

the shitstorm over the $10 discount was mindblowing. I got $10 off hades and outer wilds both. people were so upset by this lol. I couldn't believe it.

I don't agree with everything epic has done, and I don't trust their motivations with the EGS at all, but at the same time if they present a compelling product and give me a reason to engage with it (ie. they have games i want to play) then i will.

I quoted this post to respond to the 7 bullet points. I'm just going to go in order.

1. not really sure what that means, or at least the negative impact of that statement is unclear. what do you mean??
2. this is a competitive marketplace. Epic owes steam and gog nothing.
3. Do you mean that because the game is only on EGS we can't wait for sales on other platforms? This is nothing new in the digital marketplace. Where am i supposed to buy kindle books besides amazon?
4. This is the most logical argument and where i think Epic deserves the most criticism. It depends on which features of the other services you value, to me the only thing i really miss from steam is the excellent native controller support. Which, to be fair, took steam a decade+ to implement. Its also a little disingenuous to paint valve/steam as taking an active approach to adding features. They do the bare goddamned minimum at every opportunity. to pretend otherwise is straight-up false.
5. Might have a point here. I wouldn't know.
6. You can't please everyone, and ignoring a tiny percentage of the user base (linux) seems reasonable at the start. I would never game on a mac so have no opinion either way there. I feel like if your plan is to game on a mac/linux you are accepting that compatibility will be poor.
7. It is inarguably shitty for kickstarted/patreon games to promise one thing and then do another. However, a little empathy will go a long way here (as someone who has more than dabbled in game dev)... it is a very difficult, expensive, and time consuming thing to do. If, after years of hard work, a dev chooses to take the epic payday i don't fault them at all.

The point with that bullet list is not people to try and dismiss them to convince people otherwise The point is to show that there are reasons for why people have concerns regarding EGS, exclusive deals and why there is a debate about it, instead of everyone just blindly accepting the client, stores and server depencies we get steered into .

I mean, like your argument that Epic doesn't owe GOG anything. Yeah, no shit? Everyone knows that, but it's still an issue for the paying customer, and a reason for why we're having discussions, and developers getting replies to their actions.

And no, I don't condone harassment.
 

Hucast

alt account
Banned
Mar 25, 2019
3,598
Microsoft has been doing it the right way and I hope Steam with valve and Microsoft with their Xbox client become the main clients on PC. EGS has destroyed too much good will and lots of their behaviour is suspect for the future, now already. Let alone when they do have a big market share