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Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,809
Do what R* do, behave like Rockstars, do which artistically meets your goals, ofcourse, expect to be called out by everyone (non-fans) when you become exploitative, like EA.
If every game was like rockstar games I would stop playing games holy shit, this doesn't even begin to talk about the shitty work environments and attitudes towards making named female important playable characters. Infact there might be other studio's who listened to fanbases and may have become much more inclusive and interesting than rockstar games. And maybe that's cool good. And its more complicated than " I saw people say something to a dev one time and I think they are entitled "
 

angel_deamon

attempted ban circumvention by using an alt
Banned
Jan 8, 2018
248
Developers should not listen to the fans when they are creating something new, but if they are working on a beloved game, they must listen to the fans
 
Feb 24, 2018
5,245
Like others have said, the articles makes a lot of assumptions, uses bad examples and stretches stuff. Creator can choose to fan feedback or not, it's their choice. I'd say make sure your listening to all fans and avoid falling into the trap that a loud minority is the voice of your fanbase and really listen when groups like women, LGBTQ+ people, POC speak up about issues. One of my fav TV shows growing up Beast Wars was created by the writers on admittance listening to the feedback and ideas fans were having such as the show being a prequel to G1.

That being said, you should also be open to trying new and your own ideas, I've noticed fans are not the best when it comes to trying something brand new with their fav franchises, whether it being a bold new acting choice, new concepts, completely new stories. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't but you never know unless you try.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
Agree on MGS4 but disagree on pretty much everything else. Though I will point out that Konami also really wanted him to make it, not to mention fans also pushed Kojima to make MGS3 which is considered by many to be the best in the franchise.

Some serious revisionist history going on with Mass Effect. Especially considering how recent those controversies were.

ME3 people got mad because a month before the game came out one of the devs claimed that it wouldn't just be a 3 choice ending and your choices would matter. At no point did Bioware or EA correct this. Which also resulted in a better ending and the (IMO) best DLC in the game.

MEA was considered really bad for more than just the visuals, and it wasn't just the fans who complained, critics did too. MEA and Anthem were bad because of crunch, not the fans.

That petition was obviously a joke, don't know how that got used as an example.

Yeah there are times when devs cave to dumb demands and people ask for the impossible, but the fans do occasionally have really good ideas that devs sometimes implement.

I feel like someone could make a compelling argument about taking fan suggestions with a grain of salt, but the author of the article the article did a really bad job making their case.
 

Deleted member 1849

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,986
I don't quite remember who said it, but I really like this quote from a developer (I think from GDC).

"Fans are great at finding problems, but not great at proposing solutions".

So, listen to the fans, but know what to take on board and what to filter out. That line can be hard.
 

Strings

Member
Oct 27, 2017
31,430
I honestly agree with the basic premise in a sense (don't make things for the fans, but absolutely listen to what their general feedback is and think about it). Terrible examples though :/
I don't quite remember who said it, but I really like this quote from a developer (I think from GDC).

"Fans are great at finding problems, but not great at proposing solutions".

So, listen to the fans, but know what to take on board and what to filter out. That line can be hard.
Yeah, exactly.
 

disparate

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,904
Anthem is exclusively the product of a studio with no creative direction in knowing what game they utlimately wanted to make. Nobody, not EA or anyone else is responsible for its issues other than the studio.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,447
I was one of the first people to laugh at Microsoft's vision of the original Xbox One. Digital only? Online only? The cloud? What on earth where they talking about? Yet now, in 2019, almost all my games are digital. I'm always connected to the internet. Sure, the Kinect was a bust, but the rest was genuinely forward-thinking.

this is some really disingenuous bullshit
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,736
VG247, it's time to stop confusing a market choice to go all digital with the needlessly mandatory clusterfuck of the 2013 Xbox One software licensing strategy, whose only reason to be universal and mandatory was control of the secondary market. Thanks.
 

alr1ght

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,053
Ahh, this guy must be a huge fan of EGS. Completely ignore what consumers want and then get mad when consumers don't like it.
 

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,345
São Paulo - Brazil
MEA was considered really bad for more than just the visuals, and it wasn't just the fans who complained, critics did too. MEA and Anthem were bad because of crunch, not the fans.

Andromeda wasn't bad because of any crunch, Andromeda was bad because of the completely lack of vision from the developers and a series of terrible creative decisions. Frostbyte certainly didn't seem to have helped things either.
 

Quacktion

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,479
Nah this aint it fam. If you need a counterexample just look at Capcom, their entire recent history is living (DMC5, RE2) and dying (MvCi) by listening to or ignoring fan feedback respectively.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
Oh also I love when an industry person, enthusiast, or blogger makes statements about digital only games. /s

Yeah you're totally representative of the general population and no one should ever be concerned about digital only, always online, etc. because it's the "future". /s
 

silva1991

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,504
Imagine being so out of touch to think that MGS4 is worse than 5, PW and PO.

Devs should listen to fans and critics. It just shouldn't affect their vision heavily and turn it into another game or Frankenstein's monster.
 

RumbleHumble

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,128
Naw, MGS4 is still good. And, while I like much of what Xbox offers now, it's largely in part because of the shifts they had to make due to backlash from the gaming community.

The issue isn't listening to feedback, it's trying to figure out which feedback is the feedback you should listen to.
 

Mobu

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
5,932
Imagine being so out of touch to think that MGS4 is worse than 5, PW and PO.

Devs should listen to fans and critics. It just shouldn't affect their vision heavily and turn it into another game or Frankenstein's monster.
MGSV being better than 4 is the consensus though
 

dm101

Member
Nov 13, 2018
2,184
Andromeda got dogpiled for outsourcing that was extremely evident and once they tried to fix it (which they sorta kinda not really did) that quietened down, some people still didn't like it but the reception was a lot warmer

You know this article's written by a first world country city slickin bastard when they see absolutely zero issues with online only all digital

It's

exasperating
I'm first world, but rural. On line only/streaming isn't gonna fly with 15 megs down.
 

Kirbivore

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,931
Like others have said, the articles makes a lot of assumptions, uses bad examples and stretches stuff. Creator can choose to fan feedback or not, it's their choice. I'd say make sure your listening to all fans and avoid falling into the trap that a loud minority is the voice of your fanbase and really listen when groups like women, LGBTQ+ people, POC speak up about issues. One of my fav TV shows growing up Beast Wars was created by the writers on admittance listening to the feedback and ideas fans were having such as the show being a prequel to G1.

That being said, you should also be open to trying new and your own ideas, I've noticed fans are not the best when it comes to trying something brand new with their fav franchises, whether it being a bold new acting choice, new concepts, completely new stories. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't but you never know unless you try.

I mean you are asking them to do and not do the same thing though
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
Andromeda wasn't bad because of any crunch, Andromeda was bad because of the completely lack of vision from the developers and a series of terrible creative decisions. Frostbyte certainly didn't seem to have helped things either.

I dunno, I think it would've been closer to how it is now if Bioware had more time. Kotaku had an article on it awhile back, and unless I'm remembering it wrong I'm pretty sure crunch was one of the major cause of a lot of the launch issues.
 

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,345
São Paulo - Brazil
Eh, I believe it. If Wildlands could sell that much, Andromeda could have without the visuals.

A good way to not have terrible gifs troubling your game is to have a good game. I would believe the gif narrative if they were unfair to the game, if they nitpicked certain aspects in detriment of the overall picture. In other words, making a good game look bad.

That's not what happened with Andromeda. It showed the game as it was. The gifs were an precise representation of the game. If anything, the game as actually worse as gifs could properly repersent the narrative and creative graveyard that Andromeda made of the Mass Effect universe.
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
Anthem is exclusively the product of a studio with no creative direction in knowing what game they utlimately wanted to make. Nobody, not EA or anyone else is responsible for its issues other than the studio.
If anything, Anthem is the complete opposite of what Bioware fans expect and ask for. Bioware has a pedigree at excelling with a certain type of genre, levering strong single-player story content with deep RPG mechanics, even deeper story crafting and player morality options, and providing a journey with fully-realized party members helping you throughout the experience, often with romance options and other ways to forge intimate and deep relationships with your crew.

Anthem has very little of that. It's a weird game that if you weren't told it was by Bioware you'd never know.

Even I said that Anthem wasn't a game for me. I wished it the best, but I wanted a more traditional Bioware experience because there are so few of them out there. Anthem feels like a dime-a-dozen, design-by-committee game, while the best "Bioware" experience I've had in years is Assassin's Creed Odyssey.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,548
A different take that is probably more accurate from Sean Murray of Hello Games


I still feel like this take doesn't really apply, especially for giants like EA and those wrapped within.

Sean Murray basically had 2 options, keep supporting the game for as long as possible and try a second shadow launch once the actual promises made were implemented, or shudder the studio. There would be no bailouts, they wouldn't just be able to shift progress to another project, it was either make it work posthumously, or tell everyone who worked there they were out of a job.

Nothing he talks about in that article really applies to the problem that Anthem or Destiny or ME:Andromedia had, where even if or when they fix the major issues, they still have a product that's ultimately subpar.

A good way to not have terrible gifs troubling your game is to have a good game. I would believe the gif narrative if they were unfair to the game, if they nitpicked certain aspects in detriment of the overall picture. In other words, making a good game look bad.

That's not what happened with Andromeda. It showed the game as it was. The gifs were an precise representation of the game. If anything, the game as actually worse as gifs could properly repersent the narrative and creative graveyard that Andromeda made of the Mass Effect universe.

Pretty much.

The worst thing I can say about Andromedia was that even after they fixed the major issues, the soft lock bugs, the characters falling through the world, the enemies shooting off into space at a million miles an hour, the characters not showing up for dialogue options, what they were left with was still the worst mass effect game.
 

Roy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,471
Has design by focus groups and vocal minority ever worked out?

I've seen Call of Duty regress from its peak to what it is now, all on the spine of "we're listening to the fans, we love to get your feedback!"
 

Cronogear

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,986
Very much disagree. Developers should always listen to fans.

However, that doesn't mean they need to do as they say. Listen to complaints and suggestions, understand where they're coming from, and see if you can improve your product by addressing them.

It's really not that complicated of an idea.
 

Scuffed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,900
What a mess of an article. It reads more like a forum post angry at critics than anything else. It has all the usual trite crap like "entitlement," "can't please everyone, "gamers aren't professionals." I thought it was clickbait and that the body text would show the real intent but the title sums up what they are saying so don't waste your time reading it like I did.

The worst part is the way he ties real silliness like petitioning Obama for DMC and criticisms of Andromeda like they are similar. He also mentions Anthem in passing and doesn't even mention other real trash like BF2 and Fallout 76. So many omissions that contradict his argument and really bad out of left field strawman like the GoT petition. Such a terrible read.
 

funky

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,527
Because that's how the last God of War happened.

Yes? Most people where tired of old god of war and old kratos. Cory is even on camera mentioning that back in 2013 or 14 when he was first tossing ideas around for it.


Granted yes. Not many fans whre asking to turn God of War into a TLOU like dad game but hey. Its about balance.
 
Last edited:
Oct 26, 2017
9,859

Zelda fans asked for an open world game with no proper dungeons? That's new to me.

I dunno, I think it would've been closer to how it is now if Bioware had more time. Kotaku had an article on it awhile back, and unless I'm remembering it wrong I'm pretty sure crunch was one of the major cause of a lot of the launch issues.

Andromeda had 5 years (more than enough for a sequel), BioWare Montreal did nothing for 3 years and they made the actual game in less than 2 years, OF COURSE they will have to crunch, but it is all on them.
 

ArnoldJRimmer

Banned
Aug 22, 2018
1,322
What a shitty article. Anthem wasn't a response to ME:A feedback, it was an entirely different genre, what the fuck.
 

Grapezard

Member
Nov 16, 2017
7,788
Feedback is important, you take the usable suggestions and you ditch the really stupid stuff. This is basic, consumers don't owe them their money.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,548
Zelda fans asked for an open world game with no proper dungeons? That's new to me.

Oh people were clamouring for the "what if Skyrim, but Zelda" for a LOOOONG time.

The nature of the shrines was new but yeah, people were demanding that mess since the first real expansion of open world games.
 
Oct 29, 2017
7,500
Crunch was not the problem at BioWare, it was just a symptom. They wasted years spinning their wheels not making any decisions on what their game was going to be about, then had to rush at the last minute. Give Andromeda or Anthem an extra year "in the oven"? They would have just spent another year chasing their tails and then had the exact same crunch before the deadline.
 

Popcicle

Unbroken Studios
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
95
Wrote this in the comments:

Hyperbole or not, "stop listening to fans" just isn't good advice.

The best part of this article is the comment that game development is not well understood. That is improving with the ease of access to game development technology but similar to film-making it probably won't ever get completely understood by a mass audience who likewise want to critique it.

I think the better advice (and the better headline) is: Developers: listen to fans the right way. You could have used this as a teachable moment to encourage more studios, publishers, and IP holders to hire community managers, and community teams, and conduct responsible sentiment analysis and digest their feedback from players/fans in a constructive and mutually beneficial way.

The idea that fans should never be listened to because some developers buckled to poor feedback or didn't properly align the expectations of their product with the market needs, is misguided.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,231
given how clueless people can be on this board (especially when it comes to game development), yeah I'd not listen to them