It's not really about wins. Goku just remains the focus in much of the series.
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It's not really about wins. Goku just remains the focus in much of the series.
Agreed. Vegeta has arguably done better vs the main antags than Goku throughout Super.
Round 1 vs Beerus in SSJ2
Beat the fuck out of Golden Frieza when Goku lost
Kicked the shit out of Goku Black before his fusion
Did better against Jirin in Blue form
Got more hits in vs Broly
Did better against Moro before Goku used UI.
I do.
Bringing out some surprising plot points and using more characters to actually achieve things would make the show so much more interesting.
Super, while fun at times, is just extremely dull and by numbers overall. The show hasn't had a spark since Bu.
The issue with Hit is that from the start it's established, like usual, that powering up more breaks his technique. It didn't take Jiren to break through his timeskip, Goku himself did it with Blue/Kaioken Blue.
Filler… that movie that was written by Toriyama and was Toei animation's highest grossing film ever…
even if you remove that you literally get rid of one of Goku's only wins against a main antagonist in Super.
You missed my point completely. I understand that Hit is stopping time but the way they use it in the show and manga, he may as well just be moving super fast because the outcome is basically the same. How do you counter it? You just have a higher power level or move faster. Dragon Ball is always like this, the only difference between Base Goku's punch and Super Saiyan Blue Goku's punch is that we are told it's more powerful. Same thing with Hit.
Hit put Jiren in a time prison and Jiren LOLNOPED right out of it.
Hit's technique is also not just "fast movement". It's a literal time hax.
Hit's Time Skip would be interesting if it changed how characters had to fight him - they had to find a strategy or counter. But Goku merely powers up so that he's fast and powerful enough to overcome the Time Skip. Jiren just powers up to get out of the Time Freeze. It's just brute force power levels as usual. So I never found Hit's ability interesting.
Yeah this is what I was trying to say. Hit's unique ability is immediately made irrelevant because of power levels.
This happens constantly, an out of context page leaks, people piss and whine about how bad Toyotaro is and then the chapter comes out and it wasn't what people thought.
Also reminder that Toriyama did the outline for this arc.
Also as someone who was very much a Toyotaro hater I think his own arc, The Galactic Patrol Prisoner arc, was Super's best and so far the current arc has been great.
Functionally it isn't super speed. Goku was fighting against it in the U6 tournament before Kaioken. Yes Dragon Ball renders it useless against higher power levels but on a similar level of power Hit's tech would work how it's supposed to.
Toriyama's writing leaves a lot to be desired and has for a very long time.
Well at least AT didn't actually do the outli-
I can't believe he's done this.
When I say "functionally", I mean how the battle functions, how the characters are made to react to things and adapt. Again, I realize that Hit is stopping time - I never said he wasn't. But in terms of how it effects battle in Dragon Ball, it may as well be super speed because the solution is still "move faster" to beat it. If Goku Blue moves faster than the Time Skip, than against a weaker opponent than Hit, Goku's speed would feel the same to them.
To explain it in another way, the show is telling us that Hit is stopping time but if it never did tell us the difference, it would effectively seem like he was just a little faster than Goku until Goku powered up and moved faster. My point is that for me, a power isn't really interesting unless it effects the world and characters it interacts with in an interesting or unique way. Time Skip… doesnt.
Looking back now. It almost seems like RoF was a troll move. I mean, think about it: Vegeta is so close to securing the victory over freeza THIS time... But then freeza just just doesn't lose. Time is rewinded. Goku just rushes in and nukes freeza for the W.
It is almost as if AT just said "Oh? You thought?" It is like he is speaking directly to us. He is telling us, in his own way, that Vegeta will never succeed. EVER again. I mean why else would AT do it that way. That's an oddly specific way to take the W away from Vegeta.
And now here we are once again.... Vegeta gets his pancakes flipped. And watch Goku start surfing and sliding on this motherfucka. I'm gonna be so mad.
Heck, at this point I would even take Gohan saving the day. pfft yeah right.
It is almost as if AT just said "Oh? You thought?" It is like he is speaking directly to us. He is telling us, in his own way, that Vegeta will never succeed. EVER again. I mean why else would AT do it that way. That's an oddly specific way to take the W away from Vegeta.
And now here we are once again.... Vegeta gets his pancakes flipped. And watch Goku start surfing and sliding on this motherfucka. I'm gonna be so mad.
Heck, at this point I would even take Gohan saving the day. pfft yeah right.
Again? When did Vegeta ever do anything significant?
He can kill random mooks like Frieza's henchmen or the clown android but he never does anything that worthwhile.
Even if he does, the bigger issue is that he hasn't learned anyting from any of his fights.
Goku didn't as well.
You could literally put a timeskip between that 1st DBS movie and explain that they trained really really hard to get the new forms and noting of value would be lost.
I don't really agree that Vegeta gets nothing to do. He certainly does but the results don't usually matter in the long run. Vegeta trounced several of the fighters during the orginal universe vs universe fights but that ends up meaning little in the scheme of things as those fights had little importance to the plot aside from character introductions and world building.
Since it was a Battle royal, at the end of the day the main antagonist of that arc was the great equaliser.
Kinda like how in Saint Seiya you had the twin gods serving Hades that could wipe out any threat but they prefer to chill and wait for armies to play little games.
Like Thanatos could kill from a dimension away without bothering to show up.
Thing is Kurumada was smart enough to make the arcs before Elysion interesting to read and really fighting is not really the main draw of the manga despite its heavy battle focus.
This isn't the villain, the fight isn't over, Goku already got knocked out twice by him and Goku never gets solo wins against the main antagonists in Super, and many times he straight up doesn't win.
He's in it because they paid him to come back. The dude was checked out since Namek
Without filler, from the original manga.
We have :
Jobgeta vs :
Son Goku : win
Goku's friend : straight loss, got his tail cut by Yajirobe, bodied by Oozaru's Sangohan
Cui or whatever his name is who had the same power level as Jobgeta : Win
Dodoria : Win
Zarbon 1 : Loss
Zarbon 2 : Win
Recoome : Loss
Jess : Win
Frieza 1st form : Loss
Frieza final form : Loss
Android 20 : Win
Android 18 : Loss
Cell 2nd form : was Winning but then
Perfect Cell : Loss
Perfecter Cell : Loss
Rando guy in Babidi's basement : Win
Son Goku : Draw
Buu : Loss
Kid Buu : Loss
And that's it from the top of my head.
Oh and he also killed Nappa after Goku ragdolled him if that count for something.
He easily beat Pui Pui, it wasn't a loss. I'd also argue he won against Goku in the Saiyan arc.
I thought I put that as a win.
I didn't even remember his name so I was probably thinking of something else.
Goku in the Saiyan arc could be argued as a straight win too.
After the Oozaru transformation, Goku didn't have a whole bone in his body and Jobgeta was still fighting Gohan and the others.
Well I dunno about that. Android/cell saga was dope af. And made Gohan super relevant. Also, piccolo molly-whopped dr.gero as well and was on his way to dragging 17's ass before he got interrupted. Tien also got shine time too.
Goku was legit scared to fight imperfect cell which is why he ran. These sagas had a lot of cool stuff in it. Also, we got arguably the best version of trunks ever written. He shows up and puts in work IMMEDIATELY.
AT did good in cell/android sagas.
I feel like writting is his strong suit but for a gag manga.
Ultimately I'd say it's the characters' struggle and overcoming impossible odds.
How they will succeed against odds that are so against them that no one would think twice if they failed.
I wouldn't say it's the battles themselves when most characters rely on 1 to 3 skills and they don't really grow in their fighting styles like how Naruto would have characters fight.
And that's an arc with time travel too!
They usually suck and are contrived to all hells.
Gohan only contribution to the Android/Cell saga was getting pissed off by Cell and transform into a SSJ2, have Goku killed because he shares the same genetic shit like Goku/Vegeta and then kill Cell with the aid of Goku.
These sagas had a little bit of everything. Time-travel, mystery/investigation, thriller. The works!
My favorite saga tbh.
When they realized they couldn't sense the first set of androids and had to search for them the old fashioned way.
When cell was powering up and you could see the 100s of human souls he absorbed simultaneously being released from him.
Trunks giving cold his sword, only to kill him afterward. Lmao
When gero held yamchas mouth closed while impaling him.
When trunks came back from the future to check on the present, realizing the androids the Z fighters were fighting were not the real ones he remembered from his time.
ANOTHER android named 16!
Goku panicking even more when he realized he couldn't use beams against 19.
Goku falling ill.
Cell hiding from z warriors while drinking human beings like a Capri-sun through a straw.
Tien holding off cell until he passed out.
Realizing that the actual "present" was a failed timeline where everyone died. Our actual timeline is not the "original".
All dope and thrilling.
For me it's ok, as long as the follow up doesn't fumble to ball, it can serve as a great jumping point to start the adventures of Gohan.
Gohan was never that useful in Z anyway but this time it felt like it was leading up to something and Gohan's final form was the pay off.
Goku dying had to happen thematically to close the book on Goku and focus on Gohan going forward.
To say that the follow up didn't go the way it was organically meant to go is an understatement.
And when you discover this arc it's fantastic.
Cell comes out of nowhere and fight with a fused Piccolo and the way the fight works is wildly unpredictable.
The structure is in general the very same.
Jobgeta is still always jobbing, Krillin is far from useful and all that but it's so masterfully done.
Even if you read it now it's still a fantastic read.
I found Tori's writing to be one of Dragon Ball's strongest points at least in some aspects. Maybe it's his background of actually being a comedian but I felt that Toriyama was always keenly aware of the audiences expectations and played around with it quite a lot which made the whole story quite engaging throughout.
It's so good that you could pick up the manga and it would still be better than most shonen currently running.
Yes gags/light hearted writing is one of his strengths. Along with pacing, just story construction and follow though are his bane.
Akira: Let's make Gohan the protag and he's a school with a whole new supporting cast/setting/set up for Gohan to interact with.
5 weeks later…
I'm bringing back Goku.
That whole thing with Gohan's school life is probably reason #1 Dragon Ball is a Goku only show with Jobgeta as a hype man.
Thinking about it, the long timeskip was a mistake.
Gohan was homeschooled so the only characters that worked as Gohan's friends were Goku's friends.
And you can't really have Gohan hang out with the much older cast.
Because Gohan is by far then the strongest person alive (and even at the start of Z he was already stronger than most humans were),
you can't have him interact naturally with a cast like Goku did back then.
We have a lot of examples of timeskips being successful or not but was there ever a long running manga where the mangaka tried a protagonist swap in the middle and succeeded?
I can't think of one actually!
HxH could be argued but that's a bit different and on an ongoing hiatus right now.
Broly movie is canon this time around, not "filler" like the old trilogy.
I liked the old dumb broly original movie.
Dear god, the other 2 movies are trash.
BioBroly is probably the worst animated movie I cared to watch.
It's like a distillation of everything I hate about the Buu arc.
Thanks. Needed a current up to date version of the God of Jobbing.
Edit. Darn. Doesn't include post Super manga jobs.
