Goku's biggest wins in Super are against Frieza and Kefla (not a final boss enemy either). He loses most of the key fights.
It's not really about wins. Goku just remains the focus in much of the series.
Goku's biggest wins in Super are against Frieza and Kefla (not a final boss enemy either). He loses most of the key fights.
Agreed. Vegeta has arguably done better vs the main antags than Goku throughout Super.So all the people since 2015 that constantly jump to conclusions based on out of context information and end up looking foolish? I don't expect him to straight up win, but this isn't the climax and Granolah isn't the villain, the actual villains are in the back collecting the Dragon Balls. I've been expecting that the fight would be interrupted by the dragon being summoned. Again, the fight isn't even over, so all the "vEgEtA jObBeD" comments are dumb, especially taking into account the fact that Goku literally lost to a weaker Granolah twice in two chapters, while Vegeta has been doing way better against a stronger version.
People regularly jump to conclusions with DBS based on little information, regularly out of context, and their assumptions are often wrong, it's been happening for 6 years and people never learn to just wait for the full context.
Would be better than what we're getting now by far.
What? Broly isn't filler.Filler like Broly doesn't count. When it really matters we know who is getting the win.
Nobody seriously wants to see Krillin beat a big bad lol
I do.
The issue with Hit is that from the start it's established, like usual, that powering up more breaks his technique. It didn't take Jiren to break through his timeskip, Goku himself did it with Blue/Kaioken Blue.What did Toei and Toyotaro do after? We got fucking Jiren "STRONGER THAN TIME ITSELF" and Moro becoming another Freeza retraux because this is an inherent problem in the direction of the series from the top and it's not going to change.
Filler… that movie that was written by Toriyama and was Toei animation's highest grossing film ever…Filler like Broly doesn't count. When it really matters we know who is getting the win.
You missed my point completely. I understand that Hit is stopping time but the way they use it in the show and manga, he may as well just be moving super fast because the outcome is basically the same. How do you counter it? You just have a higher power level or move faster. Dragon Ball is always like this, the only difference between Base Goku's punch and Super Saiyan Blue Goku's punch is that we are told it's more powerful. Same thing with Hit.
Hit put Jiren in a time prison and Jiren LOLNOPED right out of it.
Hit's technique is also not just "fast movement". It's a literal time hax.
Yeah this is what I was trying to say. Hit's unique ability is immediately made irrelevant because of power levels.The issue with Hit is that from the start it's established, like usual, that powering up more breaks his technique. It didn't take Jiren to break through his timeskip, Goku himself did it with Blue/Kaioken Blue.
This happens constantly, an out of context page leaks, people piss and whine about how bad Toyotaro is and then the chapter comes out and it wasn't what people thought.Are people still "wait and see"ing Toyotaro in 2021.
Dude has zero interest in changing up the formula or evolving characters past their post-Buu-arc stasis (except for Goku who is basically just always kid Goku characterization wise). Which is fine. I get the nostalgia appeal of it. But I can't imagine expecting him to deviate from his paint by numbers approach.
Thread title needs to be updated:
"Vegeta obtains new power-up in new "Dragon Ball Super" Manga chapter UPDATE: JOBS" read threadmarks
Functionally it isn't super speed. Goku was fighting against it in the U6 tournament before Kaioken. Yes Dragon Ball renders it useless against higher power levels but on a similar level of power Hit's tech would work how it's supposed to.You missed my point completely. I understand that Hit is stopping time but the way they use it in the show and manga, he may as well just be moving super fast because the outcome is basically the same. How do you counter it? You just have a higher power level or move faster. Dragon Ball is always like this, the only difference between Base Goku's punch and Super Saiyan Blue Goku's punch is that we are told it's more powerful. Same thing with Hit.
Hit's Time Skip would be interesting if it changed how characters had to fight him - they had to find a strategy or counter. But Goku merely powers up so that he's fast and powerful enough to overcome the Time Skip. Jiren just powers up to get out of the Time Freeze. It's just brute force power levels as usual. So I never found Hit's ability interesting.
I can't believe he's done this.
When I say "functionally", I mean how the battle functions, how the characters are made to react to things and adapt. Again, I realize that Hit is stopping time - I never said he wasn't. But in terms of how it effects battle in Dragon Ball, it may as well be super speed because the solution is still "move faster" to beat it. If Goku Blue moves faster than the Time Skip, than against a weaker opponent than Hit, Goku's speed would feel the same to them.Functionally it isn't super speed. Goku was fighting against it in the U6 tournament before Kaioken. Yes Dragon Ball renders it useless against higher power levels but on a similar level of power Hit's tech would work how it's supposed to.
Again? When did Vegeta ever do anything significant?Looking back now. It almost seems like RoF was a troll move. I mean, think about it: Vegeta is so close to securing the victory over freeza THIS time... But then freeza just just doesn't lose. Time is rewinded. Goku just rushes in and nukes freeza for the W.
It is almost as if AT just said "Oh? You thought?" It is like he is speaking directly to us. He is telling us, in his own way, that Vegeta will never succeed. EVER again. I mean why else would AT do it that way. That's an oddly specific way to take the W away from Vegeta.
And now here we are once again.... Vegeta gets his pancakes flipped. And watch Goku start surfing and sliding on this motherfucka. I'm gonna be so mad.
Heck, at this point I would even take Gohan saving the day. pfft yeah right.
Since it was a Battle royal, at the end of the day the main antagonist of that arc was the great equaliser.I don't really agree that Vegeta gets nothing to do. He certainly does but the results don't usually matter in the long run. Vegeta trounced several of the fighters during the orginal universe vs universe fights but that ends up meaning little in the scheme of things as those fights had little importance to the plot aside from character introductions and world building.
This isn't the villain, the fight isn't over, Goku already got knocked out twice by him and Goku never gets solo wins against the main antagonists in Super, and many times he straight up doesn't win.Vegeta nets new power.
Vegeta gets clapped by villain
Goku gets final win.
Rinse, Repeat.
After Resurrection F, i expect nothing from the writing with regards to Vegeta.
He's in it because they paid him to come back. The dude was checked out since NamekToriyama's writing leaves a lot to be desired and has for a very long time.
Without filler, from the original manga.I'm going to need some of the people in this topic to watch Star Trek and start cleaning up Worf's record like how they're doing Vegeta's record
He easily beat Pui Pui, it wasn't a loss. I'd also argue he won against Goku in the Saiyan arc.Without filler, from the original manga.
We have :
Jobgeta vs :
Son Goku : kind of a draw in 1v1, he lost beam battle but could still fight while Goku was like super done.
Goku's friend : straight loss, got his tail cut by Yajirobe, bodied by Oozaru's Sangohan
Cui or whatever his name is who had the same power level as Jobgeta : Win
Dodoria : Win
Zarbon 1 : Loss
Zarbon 2 : Win
Recoome : Loss
Jess : Win
Frieza 1st form : Loss
Frieza final form : Loss
Android 20 : Win
Android 18 : Loss
Cell 2nd form : was Winning but then
Perfect Cell : Loss
Perfecter Cell : Loss
Rando guy in Babidi's basement : Loss
Son Goku : Draw
Buu : Loss
Kid Buu : Loss
And that's it from the top of my head.
Oh and he also killed Nappa after Goku ragdolled him if that count for something.
I thought I put that as a win.He easily beat Pui Pui, it wasn't a loss. I'd also argue he won against Goku in the Saiyan arc.
Writing is and will never be his strong suit.Toriyama's writing leaves a lot to be desired and has for a very long time.
Since it was a Battle royal, at the end of the day the main antagonist of that arc was the great equaliser.
Kinda like how in Saint Seiya you had the twin gods serving Hades that could wipe out any threat but they prefer to chill and wait for armies to play little games.
Like Thanatos could kill from a dimension away without bothering to show up.
Thing is Kurumada was smart enough to make the arcs before Elysion interesting to read and really fighting is not really the main draw of the manga despite its heavy battle focus.
Well I dunno about that. Android/cell saga was dope af. And made Gohan super relevant. Also, piccolo molly-whopped dr.gero as well and was on his way to dragging 17's ass before he got interrupted. Tien also got shine time too.He's in it because they paid him to come back. The dude was checked out since Namek
I feel like writting is his strong suit but for a gag manga.
Ultimately I'd say it's the characters' struggle and overcoming impossible odds.
And that's an arc with time travel too!Well I dunno about that. Android/cell saga was dope af. And made Gohan super relevant. Also, piccolo molly-whopped dr.gero as well and was on his way to dragging 17's ass before he got interrupted. Tien also got shine time too.
Goku was legit scared to fight imperfect cell which is why he ran. These sagas had a lot of cool stuff in it. Also, we got arguably the best version of trunks ever written. He shows up and puts in work IMMEDIATELY.
AT did good in cell/android sagas.
Gohan only contribution to the Android/Cell saga was getting pissed off by Cell and transform into a SSJ2, have Goku killed because he shares the same genetic shit like Goku/Vegeta and then kill Cell with the aid of Goku.Well I dunno about that. Android/cell saga was dope af. And made Gohan super relevant. Also, piccolo molly-whopped dr.gero as well and was on his way to dragging 17's ass before he got interrupted. Tien also got shine time too.
Goku was legit scared to fight imperfect cell which is why he ran. These sagas had a lot of cool stuff in it. Also, we got arguably the best version of trunks ever written. He shows up and puts in work IMMEDIATELY.
AT did good in cell/android sagas.
These sagas had a little bit of everything. Time-travel, mystery/investigation, thriller. The works!
For me it's ok, as long as the follow up doesn't fumble to ball, it can serve as a great jumping point to start the adventures of Gohan.Gohan only contribution to the Android/Cell saga was getting pissed off by Cell and transform into a SSJ2, have Goku killed because he shares the same genetic shit like Goku/Vegeta and then kill Cell with the aid of Goku.
And when you discover this arc it's fantastic.These sagas had a little bit of everything. Time-travel, mystery/investigation, thriller. The works!
My favorite saga tbh.
When they realized they couldn't sense the first set of androids and had to search for them the old fashioned way.
When cell was powering up and you could see the 100s of human souls he absorbed simultaneously being released from him.
When gero held yamchas mouth closed while impaling him.
When trunks came back from the future to check on the present, realizing the androids the Z fighters were fighting were not the real ones he remembered from his time.
ANOTHER android named 16!
Goku panicking even more when he realized he couldn't use beams against 19.
Goku falling ill.
Cell hiding from z warriors while drinking human beings like a Capri-sun through a straw.
Tien holding off cell until he passed out.
Realizing that the actual "present" was a failed timeline where everyone died. Our actual timeline is not the "original".
All dope and thrilling.
I found Tori's writing to be one of Dragon Ball's strongest points at least in some aspects. Maybe it's his background of actually being a comedian but I felt that Toriyama was always keenly aware of the audiences expectations and played around with it quite a lot which made the whole story quite engaging throughout.
That whole thing with Gohan's school life is probably reason #1 Dragon Ball is a Goku only show with Jobgeta as a hype man.Yes gags/light hearted writing is one of his strengths. Along with pacing, just story construction and follow though are his bane.
Akira: Let's make Gohan the protag and he's a school with a whole new supporting cast/setting/set up for Gohan to interact with.
5 weeks later…
I'm bringing back Goku.
I liked the old dumb broly original movie.Broly movie is canon this time around, not "filler" like the old trilogy.
Haven't read the spoilers, but judging by reactions I'mma guess this tweet is relevant