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CoolestSpot

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,325
Superhero shows got big ever since the big boom since Iron Man have picked up in quality. Even before that there were some hits, and after we get some great titles afterwards from others besides Marvel as well (though some continue to fuck that up). But with T.V. superhero shows? I don't think America has learned how to properly tell these stories in live action t.v. yet.

To share my opinon, I so far have enjoyed these shows, though I'm probably forgetting some:
Daredevil
Punisher
Legends of Tomorrow
Legion
Agents of Shield (After first season, which made me drop it hard for awhile)
Greatest American Hero
Heroes (First Season, from what I remember was solid, rest was eh)

The problem is, especially with those on CW, is they read like those early 60's comics that just realized the could explore the human side of characters and exploit to hell and back. Like those comics, these shows come across as bad soap operas more often then not, focusing on the romance and poorly acted characters far too much.

I don't know, I'm rambling here, but shows like Flash even if I don't like because it's myriad of problems, I can respect because it goes out there with it's concepts. Hell, that's only reason I listed LoT, it's full on comic book crazy. Daredevil/Punisher do character exploration right, were I feel like the other Netflix series just meander forever and take forever to go anywhere. These shows took Green Arrow, a character I love more then Bat-Man, and took all this personality and threw it into a shirtless hot bod to rake in viewers. It hurts, man.

I don't shit on anyone for enjoying these shows, in fact I enjoy that there is so many of these shows coming out. Heck, Superman franchise has Super-Girl, Krypton, Metropolis, and Kandor shows coming out at same time! What the fuck, right? We're getting so many of these damn shows and it's great. I think the highlight of serialized/televised cape stories in America was the DC animated verse. I get the two realms of storytelling are different but I mean nowadays...do they really have to be?

But I think America needs to import storytelling in this genre and form from one place; Japan. And hey, I see you rolling your eyes, but listen!

Here are two random clips I could find of Sentai that were at top of my history:




These shows embrace their goofiness non-stop. People with fruit super powers gifted by gods have dance battles for turf while using pokemon-equse creatures, costumed heroes teaming against giant pac-man, or stealing another hero's abilities to gain friendship so you can be the best damn pirate ever. But that doesn't mean they don't explore characters and themes. Heavy shit hits the fan, along with doing crazy stuff with the effects they have and trying to make some interesting fight. They expect you to roll with it, not trying to lower themselves so you will roll with them.

Almost every year we get a new round of characters to explore and new concepts in the Super Sentai and (my fav <3) Kamen Rider franchises, and I just wish I could have the same love for the shows of the heroes I grew up reading like I do for these oddball Eastern concepts. And this is coming from someone who HATED Power Rangers growing up.
 
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Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,615
Americans are not ready for Gaim....I saw it live and I still ain't ready......
 

Darknight

"I'd buy that for a dollar!"
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,977
If I'm understanding your complaints, doesn't Gotham fit your criteria?
 

obin_gam

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,056
Sollefteå, Sweden
You need character builds because you cant spend all of your budget on effects.
If you did, then they would look terrible - like those japaneese sentai shows...
 
OP
OP
CoolestSpot

CoolestSpot

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,325
If I'm understanding your complaints, doesn't Gotham fit your criteria?

That show is trash to me, so no. I dunno what it is, but definitely making a prequel and focusing on everything but young bruce training and going "young Indiana" with Bat-Man is less interesting to me.

I think even though the listed shows I enjoyed have some with a darker bent, I think Superhero shows tend to lack fun over here besides maybe Supergirl and Flash, and then those still drag it down with romance.

I really think maybe if we did more sitcom situations between "heroics" and slowly build up to drama I might care more, I don't know.
 

SageShinigami

Member
Oct 27, 2017
30,523
I'm not sure what the argument is. I think you're asking Western heroes to be more like Kamen Rider.

Nah fam. Kamen Rider just got its shit back together.
 
OP
OP
CoolestSpot

CoolestSpot

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,325
I'm not sure what the argument is. I think you're asking Western heroes to be more like Kamen Rider.

Nah fam. Kamen Rider just got its shit back together.

I'm asking why are superheros on T.V. lacking fun and over the top concepts, pretty much. I don't have much of a discussion, but I want to discuss what maybe the two type of shows could learn from one another I guess..

In my dream world, the Arrowverse crosses with all the Sentai for a full tv movie made by both countries, getting their own produced version of the crossover.
 

Mighty Chin

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
499
No, I'm good with what we're doing over here.

AOS first season is great. It lays important groundwork for the characters.
 

Medalion

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,203
A lot of the fuck uppery of certain Superhero shows come from having to nerf the main character from reaching their fullest potential because they would become too OP, not only resolve problems way too quickly but no drama, no stakes, and the budget can't handle certain things anyways.

These shows are flawed concepts to begin with in a live action tv environment

So the big, and valid complaint of say... Barry Allen's Flash on CW Flash is he is a dumbass, and does incredibly dumb and selfish things, and constantly needs a team to help him clean up his mess. Yes.
 

ShadowSwordmaster

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,476
I'm asking why are superheros on T.V. lacking fun and over the top concepts, pretty much. I don't have much of a discussion, but I want to discuss what maybe the two type of shows could learn from one another I guess..

In my dream world, the Arrowverse crosses with all the Sentai for a full tv movie made by both countries, getting their own produced version of the crossover.
Not all Superheroes shows need to be fun or have over the top concepts.
 

Thrill_house

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,692
I like some of the netflix marvel stuff but the shit on CW....damn what I have seen is rough. A friend recommended arrow. Watched a few episodes and just couldn't get into it. The god damn fight scenes were power rangers tier shit. Flash gave me the same vibe. Dunno if I could hang with kamen rider
 

Deleted member 11093

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,095
Daredevil, Punisher and Legion are the only good ones, rest are barely watchable, and CW shows are on a whole league of shittiness they shouldn't even be recommended.
 

modoversus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,686
México
I don't think American super hero shows needs to be influenced by two long running tv shows designed to sell toys and fish sausages to children. And I say this while using a Kamen Rider Gaim avatar.

TV shows, movies and comics have certain things they must do in their own mediums to be able to exist and succeed. TVs show will always need to add the soap opera stuff, which is not that far removed from what classic comic books do as well. I know it was a big part of the Spider-Man comics I read during the 80s and 90s.

Shows on mainstream TV, specially those with large number of episodes per season, need to have more than just the plot. Black Lightning is great so far, and it is already about a lot of relationships. Will the star of the show be able to be himself and also get back his wife? His daughters have relationships of their own, too. When done well, it enhances the show.

There are exceptions, like Legends of Tomorrow, where it is mostly about the plot, but it's also a shorter show than average with a bigger cast, so maybe that has something to do with it's lack of soap opera stuff.
 

BWoog

Member
Oct 27, 2017
38,485
Crisis on Earth X was AMAZING.

Black Lightning is pretty good so far. Netflix though has to step its game up.
 

CloseTalker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,157
Daredevil, Punisher and Legion are the only good ones, rest are barely watchable, and CW shows are on a whole league of shittiness they shouldn't even be recommended.
I'd actually switch the two around. While I think the CW shows could benefit from shorter 12 episode seasons, I think they're overall better than the Netflix shows. The Netflix shows are poorly paced, poorly written, and all have this super obnoxious faux-edgy veneer. Daredevil has been decent, and Jessica Jones came close to greatness (could have gotten there if they shed four episodes), but overall I think they're all pretty bad, people just give them more credit because they're higher budget.

At least the CW shows embrace a sense of fun.
 

TheMango55

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
5,788
AoS current season has them sent to the future where the earth has been blown apart and blue aliens are ruling over the remnants of humanity.

Sounds like an over the top concept to me.
 

mrmoose

Member
Nov 13, 2017
21,316
Wait, you're complaining about plots going nowhere and poor acting and you want to hold up Super Sentai as a bastion of that?

I love Super Sentai, I have ever since I saw GoRanger as a kid (and especially Battle Fever J). I watch it with my kids. I cannot get through a Super Sentai show to save my life; it's just so repetitive that I'm not going to keep up for 52 weeks or however long they run. I usually bail about halfway through and skip around. And if you want to complain about shows like Smallville devolving to monster of the week, well, that's literally what Super Sentai is.

Kamen Rider usually has a bit more substance, plus it's easier to focus on less characters, but it still has storylines that go absolutely nowhere and nonsensical plots that, even though they have dozens and dozens of episodes, seem rushed to the end.

But the bottom line is that both of these are largely shows for kids (and their moms), with a focus on selling toys, I'm not sure that's the same market the CW and Agents of Shield are in. The biggest constraint is budget, which is why it's not just Supergirl in the 31st century with the full Legion of Superheroes for episodes at a time. They seem like soap operas because they are soap operas and they have to appeal to people outside the comic collecting purists. That said, I though the Gifted hit a great balance between superhero powers budget, X-men comics tie ins, and a moving plotline throughout the episodes.
 

modoversus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,686
México
I'd actually switch the two around. While I think the CW shows could benefit from shorter 12 episode seasons, I think they're overall better than the Netflix shows. The Netflix shows are poorly paced, poorly written, and all have this super obnoxious faux-edgy veneer. Daredevil has been decent, and Jessica Jones came close to greatness (could have gotten there if they shed four episodes), but overall I think they're all pretty bad, people just give them more credit because they're higher budget.

At least the CW shows embrace a sense of fun.

I disagree with your opinion about the Marvel Netflix shows, but I agree 100% with your opinion about the CW shows.

They do not hide or pretend they are not doing silly comic books stuff. One of my favorite things when I started to watch Flash is how Leonard Snart immediatly accepts the comic book name "Captain Cold", and enjoys using it.
 

Soj

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,755
But I liked Kamen Rider better when the riders just punched the monsters to death with their fists.
 

BigJeffery

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
2,338
I've only seen a handful of the Netflix shows (Daredevil, JJ and The Punisher) and The Punisher is the only one I would consider unequivocally good.

All the non-Netflix shows I've tried I've found to be really bad. The CW makes a certain type of show for a certain type of person, and I guess I'm just not their target audience.

Plus:

https://twitter.com/bobby/status/918178676520480768

EDIT: Actually I forgot Legion. Legion is amazing.
 

ZeoVGM

Member
Oct 25, 2017
76,281
Providence, RI
Comic books are basically just soap operas with people who have super powers and wear spandex.

Also, this is your daily reminder that AoS is the G.O.A.T. live action comic show.
 

Otakukidd

The cutest v-tuber
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,616
I know someone has mentioned it and you shot it down but man you a really describing Gotham. It thrives on campiness. Also I would not think of it as a batman prequel. Think of it as a alternate universe.
 

Shroki

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,912
Western superhero comics are often soapish by design. Their romantic relationships, friendships and personal rivalries are ingrained part of their continuining story. If, say, any of these shows were adapted from something that was removed from this you might have a point. The Punisher, for example, wasn't made to have soap elements because The Punisher is not a soapy book. Daredevil can go either way depending on the writer and so the show does occasionally dabble.

And then there's the fact that most of the shows you're complaining about are on the CW: a network that hard targets teenagers for all of it's programming.
 

RoninRay

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,603
Agents of shield season 4 is the best any of these shows have been. It has
Ghost rider.
A bad ass amazing cameo.
Evil robot doppelgangers.
Characters came back from the dead technically.
Main characters kill each other technically.
Ghosts
Magic
A great villian robot who
uses magic gets powers and turns human
Main characters are now evil technically.
A crazy matrix
Evil demon book

What more do you want?
 

hydruxo

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,522
Legion is really the only one out here doing anything interesting. I like Punisher, Daredevil, and Jessica Jones for what they are though.
 

Ogodei

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,256
Coruscant
My issue with many of the CW shows is how overly long the seasons are. Way too much fluff.

I like it. The problem with short-season Netflix shows is that you don't get enough time for the characters to breathe. A new normal is established and shattered just as quickly. With the CW shows you get your rando monster of the week episodes, and it lets you just watch the characters in their element dealing with what (to them) is a mundane problem.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,821
I'm asking why are superheros on T.V. lacking fun and over the top concepts, pretty much. I don't have much of a discussion, but I want to discuss what maybe the two type of shows could learn from one another I guess..

In my dream world, the Arrowverse crosses with all the Sentai for a full tv movie made by both countries, getting their own produced version of the crossover.
The show you're looking for is The Tick.
 

Briarios

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,238
This is shocking ... It's almost like there are superhero shows for DIFFERENT audiences!

The CW shows are great ... But they're definitely not for everyone. Same with the Netflix shows ... And your Japanese Sentai shows. It's totally fine to have a variety that not everyone likes.
 

Darknight

"I'd buy that for a dollar!"
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,977
I'm asking why are superheros on T.V. lacking fun and over the top concepts, pretty much. I don't have much of a discussion, but I want to discuss what maybe the two type of shows could learn from one another I guess..

I really don't get what you want then. You say you hate Gotham, but Gotham fits what you want exactly. It's a fun show with over the top concepts and it knows full well what it is and takes advantage of that. Everyone groaned about a lack of Batman when it first came out, but after a couple seasons, it really has come into its own and doesn't need him for this show. Despite that it still has the early days of Batman and training with Bruce as a side story.
 

JigglesBunny

Prophet of Truth
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
31,260
Chicago
CW superhero shows are just soap operas with costumes.

Netflix and FX are the only networks who pump out decent superhero series.
 

honest_ry

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
4,288
Black Lightning is supposed to be brilliant and doesn't fall into the cheesy crap of the current crop
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
106,560
Also, this is your daily reminder that AoS is the G.O.A.T. live action comic show.

tumblr_ojn70cUTWu1r1guvio2_500.gif
 

Penguin

The Mushroom Kingdom Knight
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,229
New York
1. Why does everyone use soap operas as a negative.

2. If I understand your point, I think it's mostly that TV has made a shift to be more serialized in general than procedural so you set these shows around the characters so they can grow and change and struggle and all that good stuff.

3. I do kind of agree though. With all the success on TV, would love to see someone try their hand at something like Batman 66 again, more in the sense of them having a set cast of heroes and villains who pop in and out on various basis with no real major connectivity. Just heroes finding a mission and overcoming it every week
 

Parch

Member
Nov 6, 2017
7,980
This is shocking ... It's almost like there are superhero shows for DIFFERENT audiences!
From what I`ve seen, Japanese Sentai seems to obviously target a younger audience. Even the most comedic western superhero shows like Gotham and Legends are still targeting an all ages demographic and the others with heavy drama are definitely looking for the prime time mature audience.

Comic heroes have evolved. The notion that comics are for kids are ancient history. TV and movies are trying to attract everybody and succeeding. I don`t think Japanese comic heroes have evolved the same way as the west.
 
Oct 27, 2017
645
Superhero TV shows get corny when you drag them out so long IMO. That's why the tend to start strong then fall on their faces.
 

Penguin

The Mushroom Kingdom Knight
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,229
New York
Superhero TV shows get corny when you drag them out so long IMO. That's why the tend to start strong then fall on their faces.

I think it's just a problem with prolonged series in general. You beef up main characters to overcome one problem after another but then need to soft reset for the next season to make things compelling which makes it harder for them to make quality decisions.

Like I dig Flash and Arrow and Supergirl while still acknowledging sometimes have the heroes make really dumb decisions to continue the story. It's how you hide it that matters
 

Parch

Member
Nov 6, 2017
7,980
Superhero TV shows get corny when you drag them out so long IMO. That's why the tend to start strong then fall on their faces.
I think it varies season to season. There are several examples of shows that had mediocre seasons and improved significantly in future seasons with different storylines and added characters.
They have to fill a season with so many hours so a meh season tends to drag, but ex-fans who dumped the show because they thought it sucked can`t judge future seasons. The show can be significantly improved and have a really good season.