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Oct 26, 2017
8,734
I sort of agree with him. Prequels had the world building and expanding on the lore and characters of Star Wars. It was essentially the trilogy which tried to show how the Jedi were, the politics and people in the galaxy. You know, also try to explain force, even though it wasn't needed. All those could have been much cooler if it had a better script writer and no over dependence on CGI.

This is where I disagree very strongly. I don't think writers/movies should only get a pass for attempting to explain or expand on lore. You should have a strong story focus that concisely explains each plot point that ends up being interweaved into the OT.

The politics of TPM felt like it was going nowhere and wasted a lot of time when that time could've been spent on character development. As a kid I was like "the heck is a trade blockade?" Compare this to the OT starting off with a chase that immediately sets the tone for the rebelsvs. Empire conflict. I feel the same about how clones were explained in AOTC. We know they're supposed to explain the Empire's use of stormtroopers and Boba Fett, but it ultimately went nowhere for me (even telling me that Clone Wars show is a must watch is a pretty big flaw given that the important plot points should be part of the movie). The less I talk about midichlorians, the better.

Most egregious of all was how the Jedi were written. The plot required them to basically act like idiots in the guise of hubris without actually showing why the Jedi had so much hubris to begin with. It's stuff like this, that I cannot really forgive, nor even give some credit to the PT for trying something new.
 

Dekevo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
189
This movie is a complete mess. Just really a mess. It's a pretty movie, but the plot, action and character interaction is all over the place. I don't blame JJ, I blame TLJ for this. It's time for this Saga to end.
 

Odeko

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Mar 22, 2018
15,180
West Blue
Yeah, they should have also cut the chariot scene in Ben Hur (which is what the pod race was based on) because it's just spectacle.

It's cinema. Cinema is about spectacle.
Good things have spectacle and story telling and good characters simultaneously. Like the Battle of Pelennor Field is almost overwhelming in its spectacle but it also has incredible character and story moments constantly like when Eowyn kills the Witch King and it's the most baller shit to have ever happened.

Spectacle by itself is junk food. Spectacle used to spice up an already good scene is 👌👌👌
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,734
This movie is a complete mess. Just really a mess. It's a pretty movie, but the plot, action and character interaction is all over the place. I don't blame JJ, I blame TLJ for this. It's time for this Saga to end.

I don't understand how anyone can absolve JJ Abrams of this mess when his hands are all over it. The only reason you want to blame TLJ is because you're still irrationally angry about that movie.
 

Azuran

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,563
The fact that AOTC is at 65% is ridiculous in this context. From what I have heard from friends who have seen it is that TROS is flawed in some ways it is still better than the prequels.

I'll be judging it for myself though after I see it sunday night.

AotC is the better movie and I have seen both. At least it's not cynical and mean spirited towards the previous movies like RoS is.

I rather deal with bad dialogue than a story that makes absolutely no sense and relies on asspull after asspull to keep moving.
 

Dekevo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
189
I don't understand how anyone can absolve JJ Abrams of this mess when his hands are all over it. The only reason you want to blame TLJ is because you're still irrationally angry about that movie.
I am not angry about TLJ, I don't like it. RJ achieved his goal to make a divided film, he even said this in a quote that he likes to make movies where some hate it and some like it. That is fine for a film like Knives Out but not a global franchise line Star Wars. So JJ tried to bring it back but the damage was done.
 

Cuburger

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,975
As someone who thought Chris Terrio and J.J Abrams were the wrong people to wrap this up based on their past work, who thinks TFA is a bottom 3 Star Wars film but thinks the main redeemable aspects are the music and production, who liked TLJ but felt it wasn't enough of an improvement over TFA to really course correct the new trilogy nor were the new ideas it introduced much more compelling than what TFA did, who went into this knowing some of the bigger spoilers and had some ideas about how it could be executed and how it could end up executed in a worst case scenario I expect this film to be garbage, but more likely boring and mediocre at best.

I actually liked it and coming out of TFA and TLJ, I enjoyed them, but I felt all the flaws dragged them down immediately leaving the theater for me, and slowly even more over time. With TRoS, I was well aware of the flaws and practically looking for them, but almost nothing bothered me as much as I would have expected it to.

The pacing and editing in the first half are about as bad as everyone has said, and the writing certainly feels rushed with several things feeling unearned, but on the whole, I think they set forward a pretty manageable plot with certain beats that they planned to hit and did (even if some of that was for nostalgia/"fan service", I don't feel it was as much as some made it seem to be, or at least I didn't think it was all out of place). There were character moments that felt like beats that TFA and TLJ complete dropped the ball on, and it ended up making me care more about Rey and Finn and Poe as characters or buy into certain important relationships, and I appreciated that.

It may have been the messiest of the ST, but it ended up having a sense of adventure and heart that the other films didn't quite grasp most of the time for me. Even the jokes felt more natural and funny than the way they were worked into the other films. I'm frankly surprised that the good outweighed the bad in a way that made me walk out of the movie feeling relatively good about it, in contrast to TFA and even TLJ, which only left me with doubt and questions and feeling unsatisfied, which eventually took away from some more initially positive impressions.
 

Baji Boxer

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,381
this movie is reviewing extremely fucking poorly in the context of being a star wars film. compared to like the last 5 star wars films its an unmitigated disaster lmao.

at best you could say it's getting extremely mixed reviews from 'eh it's a fun okish movie' to 'what the fuck were they thinking here'.

For Star Wars that is very very bad.
Relative to a Star Wars movie, yes it is, but that's not what I was talking about. So chill.
 

Azuran

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,563
I am not angry about TLJ, I don't like it. RJ achieved his goal to make a divided film, he even said this in a quote that he likes to make movies where some hate it and some like it. That is fine for a film like Knives Out but not a global franchise line Star Wars. So JJ tried to bring it back but the damage was done.

A good write would have found a may to make a good story even if the previous film in the saga was divisive. But JJ Abrams is a hack that doesn't know what he's doing which is why we got this mess of a movie. At this point is obvious that anything that was good in TFA wasn't because of him.
 

Fendajaz

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,123
Good things have spectacle and story telling and good characters simultaneously. Like the Battle of Pelennor Field is almost overwhelming in its spectacle but it also has incredible character and story moments constantly like when Eowyn kills the Witch King and it's the most baller shit to have ever happened.

Spectacle by itself is junk food. Spectacle used to spice up an already good scene is 👌👌👌
I agree. There definitely needs to be a balance. Only Sith deal in absolutes.
 

Mobu

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
5,932
As if the core issue with the whole trilogy isnt JJ making TFA an OT wank fest
 

Gunslinger

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,401
I am not angry about TLJ, I don't like it. RJ achieved his goal to make a divided film, he even said this in a quote that he likes to make movies where some hate it and some like it. That is fine for a film like Knives Out but not a global franchise line Star Wars. So JJ tried to bring it back but the damage was done.
Very good post i agree.
 

Shado

Member
Oct 26, 2017
440
This is where I disagree very strongly. I don't think writers/movies should only get a pass for attempting to explain or expand on lore. You should have a strong story focus that concisely explains each plot point that ends up being interweaved into the OT.

The politics of TPM felt like it was going nowhere and wasted a lot of time when that time could've been spent on character development. As a kid I was like "the heck is a trade blockade?" Compare this to the OT starting off with a chase that immediately sets the tone for the rebelsvs. Empire conflict. I feel the same about how clones were explained in AOTC. We know they're supposed to explain the Empire's use of stormtroopers and Boba Fett, but it ultimately went nowhere for me (even telling me that Clone Wars show is a must watch is a pretty big flaw given that the important plot points should be part of the movie). The less I talk about midichlorians, the better.

Most egregious of all was how the Jedi were written. The plot required them to basically act like idiots in the guise of hubris without actually showing why the Jedi had so much hubris to begin with. It's stuff like this, that I cannot really forgive, nor even give some credit to the PT for trying something new.
Isn't that exactly what the guy wrote. He said there were interesting concepts not dealt properly. I for one like the trade/politics and how it was attempted in trying to explain how the Sith used it as means to gain control as an interesting concept. But it was not fleshed out properly or had a more sound reasoning. Same for rest of your concerns. They had a lot of interesting theories, which would have been awesome if it was a better script writer and George Lucas just being the idea guy. Also the dialogs!
 

Shado

Member
Oct 26, 2017
440
I am not angry about TLJ, I don't like it. RJ achieved his goal to make a divided film, he even said this in a quote that he likes to make movies where some hate it and some like it. That is fine for a film like Knives Out but not a global franchise line Star Wars. So JJ tried to bring it back but the damage was done.
Exactly my thoughts. I might have posted it elsewhere. TLJ would have been a good standalone movie. Not a great one in the series and even more so as a good second act in a trilogy.
 

TrojanAg

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,538
The fact that AotC is rated higher on RT is a joke. TROS has issues, but it is easily better than every prequel except for maybe Revenge of the Sith.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
13,246
It's TLJ's fault that the writer for episode 9 is Chris Terrio and that instead of going in other directions, they attempted to ram two movies into one?

Fucking amazing. Holy shit, it's impressive the mental gymnastics at display.
 

iHeartGameDev

Member
Feb 22, 2019
1,114
Just got back. Really enjoyed it — not really sure what the hate is all about! We'd all be kidding ourselves if we didn't admit to the pacing issues. This should've been two movies. But it was a lot of fun in that two and a half hours.

I also thought the stuff added regarding TLJ was fine — coming from someone who absolutely loved TLJ.

So yeah, it's a really fun space romp. Solid 8.5/10 for me.
 

Shado

Member
Oct 26, 2017
440
As someone who thought Chris Terrio and J.J Abrams were the wrong people to wrap this up based on their past work, who thinks TFA is a bottom 3 Star Wars film but thinks the main redeemable aspects are the music and production, who liked TLJ but felt it wasn't enough of an improvement over TFA to really course correct the new trilogy nor were the new ideas it introduced much more compelling than what TFA did, who went into this knowing some of the bigger spoilers and had some ideas about how it could be executed and how it could end up executed in a worst case scenario I expect this film to be garbage, but more likely boring and mediocre at best.

I actually liked it and coming out of TFA and TLJ, I enjoyed them, but I felt all the flaws dragged them down immediately leaving the theater for me, and slowly even more over time. With TRoS, I was well aware of the flaws and practically looking for them, but almost nothing bothered me as much as I would have expected it to.

The pacing and editing in the first half are about as bad as everyone has said, and the writing certainly feels rushed with several things feeling unearned, but on the whole, I think they set forward a pretty manageable plot with certain beats that they planned to hit and did (even if some of that was for nostalgia/"fan service", I don't feel it was as much as some made it seem to be, or at least I didn't think it was all out of place). There were character moments that felt like beats that TFA and TLJ complete dropped the ball on, and it ended up making me care more about Rey and Finn and Poe as characters or buy into certain important relationships, and I appreciated that.

It may have been the messiest of the ST, but it ended up having a sense of adventure and heart that the other films didn't quite grasp most of the time for me. Even the jokes felt more natural and funny than the way they were worked into the other films. I'm frankly surprised that the good outweighed the bad in a way that made me walk out of the movie feeling relatively good about it, in contrast to TFA and even TLJ, which only left me with doubt and questions and feeling unsatisfied, which eventually took away from some more initially positive impressions.

I think the bolded part is what worked the best. That's the reason why a lot of people are liking the movie. For the first time in the ST, the main characters felt more real and you were connected to them. I didn't really care for them till this movie. That is what really helped me ignore some of the outlandish theories and useless macguffins.
 

Rendering...

Member
Oct 30, 2017
19,089
The problems this movie has are almost the opposite of the prequels lol.
Prequels: interesting themes and ideas, poorly shot, poorly directed, too slow in pacing.
Rise of the Palpatines: disjointed themes and no original ideas, well shot and acted, feels like your watching it on aderall
Exactly right.
 
Oct 28, 2017
13,691
Good things have spectacle and story telling and good characters simultaneously. Like the Battle of Pelennor Field is almost overwhelming in its spectacle but it also has incredible character and story moments constantly like when Eowyn kills the Witch King and it's the most baller shit to have ever happened.

Spectacle by itself is junk food. Spectacle used to spice up an already good scene is 👌👌👌
Funny you should mention that trilogy because I put it on after watching this so I could be reminded of what good writing and moviemaking is again.
 

Venuslulu

Member
Oct 28, 2017
685
Why does TLJ matter at all to this movie. Like they had a blank slate, and they also never needed to call back to OT but just conclude Rey and Kylo's arc. Or just the characters within this arc considering the OT cast is fucking gone/dead.

This "inter connectivity has to happen" bullshit from the MCU is some low level film criticism.

Rian didn't make J.J. or anyone at Bad Robot+Disney do any of this "end of saga" bullshit. Judge this film on its on merits.
 

Fendajaz

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,123
The fact that AotC is rated higher on RT is a joke. TROS has issues, but it is easily better than every prequel except for maybe Revenge of the Sith.
images
 

harry the spy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,086
User Banned (1 Week): Posting major spoilers in a non-spoiler thread, Ignoring staff post
I don't understand how anyone can absolve JJ Abrams of this mess when his hands are all over it. The only reason you want to blame TLJ is because you're still irrationally angry about that movie.

Mod Edit: Removed Spoilers
 
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Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
Snoke was a vast Nothing. He was Diet Palpatine without the menace or intrigue. That he was offed in The Last Jedi as he was was the perfect summation of his character.

And Hux was always a dipshit. He's just a dipshit in an important uniform.
 

Venuslulu

Member
Oct 28, 2017
685
Mod Edit: Removed Spoilers

Snoke's ultimate through line was to be another Emperor, which means another retread of Palpatine. Kylo didn't need to be a love interest just because he had friction with Rey and the force, and I mean they could write Hux to have grown and be more formidable, he isn't pigeonholed like how Snoke was from TFA at all.

I'll be perfectly honest though, if J.J. had control of all the films; really retread everything, including Snoke being a big bad,and have Kylo just be like an adolescent Vader, most of the fan base would like that because it hits all the story beats, but I personally don't want that from Star Wars. I'll take this mess at least I'll remember it.
 
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harry the spy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,086
Snoke's ultimate through line was to be another Emperor, which means another retread of Palpatine. Kylo didn't need to be a love interest just because he had friction with Rey and the force, and I mean they could write Hux to have grown and be more formidable, he isn't pigeonholed like how Snoke was from TFA at all.

I'll be perfectly honest though, if J.J. had control of all the films; really retread everything, including Snoke being a big bad,and have Kylo just be like an adolescent Vader, most of the fan base would like that because it hits all the story beats, but I personally don't want that from Star Wars. I'll take this mess at least I'll remember it.

Mod Edit: Removed Spoilers
 
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NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,781
It's fascinating how "Rian Johnson is to blame for TROS not being good" is picking up as some serious rhetoric, not gonna lie. Especially when one of the biggest criticisms about TLJ was that it didn't leave any major "plot threads" for TROS to resolve and gave JJ a blank slate to go anywhere he wanted.

Like, don't you see the paradox in that? If JJ is as good of a film maker as some assume he could've easily tailored a film that's solid in its own right. Not every damn sequel needs to follow up on shallow threads and setup. What's important is that the movie is good as a movie. Even when TROS is billed as the ending of a saga, it's important for the movie to stand as its own piece of work and have storylines and arcs that are self-sustaining.

If your actual problem with TROS is that TLJ didn't give Abrams an obvious plotline to pursue then you're basically admitting that the man is a hack who can't tell a story without someone laying the framework out for him.
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
That's fine but that is not addressing what I said
TLJ perfectly sets up Kylo as the Big Bad headed for a final confrontation with Rey and the Resistance. The movie resolved a bunch of the plot threads Abrams set up in TFA that had no predetermined answers and set the stage for a clear path to an ending.

Abrams apparently didn't appreciate that the mess of plot threads he created were tied up and he couldn't use any of them, so he untied a bunch of them and spoiler spoiler.
 

Venuslulu

Member
Oct 28, 2017
685
Mod Edit: Removed Spoilers

I didn't take that from TLJ, I just felt like he wanted to manipulate her through that connection but later just wanted to feel like he belonged with another individual, and he found that in Rey. Abrams choices with any characters are his own, he isn't force to follow anything, and he clearly didn't.
 
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Deleted member 2229

User requested account closure
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,740
It's fascinating how "Rian Johnson is to blame for TROS not being good" is picking up as some serious rhetoric, not gonna lie. Especially when one of the biggest criticisms about TLJ was that it didn't leave any major "plot threads" for TROS to resolve and gave JJ a blank slate to go anywhere he wanted.

Like, don't you see the paradox in that? If JJ is as good of a film maker as some assume he could've easily tailored a film that's solid in its own right. Not every damn sequel needs to follow up on shallow threads and setup. What's important is that the movie is good as a movie. Even when TROS is billed as the ending of a saga, it's important for the movie to stand as its own piece of work and have storylines and arcs that are self-sustaining.

If your actual problem with TROS is that TLJ didn't give Abrams an obvious plotline to pursue then you're basically admitting that the man is a hack who can't tell a story without someone laying the framework out for him.
Stop that right now.
We can't let a well thought out and fairly obvious argument get in the way of our nonsensical and blind anger. Its all RJs fault.
 

Betty

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,604
TLJ perfectly sets up Kylo as the Big Bad headed for a final confrontation with Rey and the Resistance. The movie resolved a bunch of the plot threads Abrams set up in TFA that had no predetermined answers and set the stage for a clear path to an ending.

Abrams apparently didn't appreciate that the mess of plot threads he created were tied up and he couldn't use any of them, so he untied a bunch of them and spoiler spoiler.

He still would've need to pull something out of his ass for the final film because the set up that TLJ left wasn't intriguing at all.

Kylo wasn't threatening and a final confrontation with Rey was literally the only remaining thread TLJ left us with.
 

Venuslulu

Member
Oct 28, 2017
685
Star Wars fandom wants the same retread of iconography in all their media, and the EU needs names and explanations for every minute detail. The sooner Disney realize that with this IP, the faster they can course correct and accept that these films can never really be truly great because the audience never really wants it to be.
 

Deleted member 2229

User requested account closure
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,740
Star Wars fandom wants the same retread of iconography in all their media, and the EU needs names and explanations for every minute detail. The sooner Disney realize that with this IP, the faster they can course correct and accept that these films can never really be truly great because the audience never really wants it to be.
Alternatively: fuck those "fans".
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
He still would've need to pull something out of his ass for the final film because the set up that TLJ left wasn't intriguing at all.

Kylo wasn't threatening and a final confrontation with Rey was literally the only remaining thread TLJ left us with.
That's where a little creativity comes in, because with one film remaining, it wasn't impossible to introduce new characters or elements in the First Order that would drive the plot forward. Even RotJ resorted to a second Death Star, but also introduced elements like the need to go to Endor, which occupied everyone not named Luke.
 

harry the spy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,086
I didn't take that from TLJ, I just felt like he wanted to manipulate her through that connection but later just wanted to feel like he belonged with another individual, and he found that in Rey. Abrams choices with any characters are his own, he isn't force to follow anything, and he clearly didn't.

I felt differently, but even if you don't see him as a love interest, then what? They are generally not very antagonistic with each other in the TLJ. He has it in for Luke, which is like fair enough, dude tried to kill him. Besides that? Does he _actually_ give a shit about the first order?
I mean his characterization was always a bit shit, Adam driver just made him very charismatic.
 

Shado

Member
Oct 26, 2017
440
Star Wars fandom wants the same retread of iconography in all their media, and the EU needs names and explanations for every minute detail. The sooner Disney realize that with this IP, the faster they can course correct and accept that these films can never really be truly great because the audience never really wants it to be.

Being great doesn't mean to purposely go against the lore or character intentions built overtime or the rules of the universe. You could be great in doing new things within the limitations and treading new ground using that. I like how MCU does it with Winter Soldier or Civil War.
 

whatsarobot

Member
Nov 17, 2017
756
TLJ had more emotion and stakes in the Snope throneroom scene than this entire movie. Rewatching that scene had me totally seeing the appeal for her to join Ben. The whole new movie felt like a predictable walk through exactly what fans hoped would happen.

Cept it was bad.