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The Jimquistion: The Cowardly Crimes Of Dastardly Denuvo
- Thread starter GameZone
- Start date
I'm always open to different opinions. The Nickelback comment was more to illustrate the exacerbated hate Denuvo gets without proper reasons behind it. I'm aware that complaints about DRM in general and *some* complaints about Denuvo, specifically, are absolutely right and worthy of a discussion.
So what would "proper" reasons for you be then?
1. That it excludes games being released on DRM free sites like GOG, for those devs that would otherwise release their games there? And that I who more and more prefer to buy from that site had to wait for Rime and Inside being released there, because of Denuvo (both games are games that I have bought since)?
2. That the cases mentioned by Jim Sterling in that video are cases that have happened, where single player games have been rendered unaccessible, because we with Denuvo gets yet another server depency for our single player titles?
3. And that it's from a third party, who tries to obfuscate and hide how their system works as much as possible?
4. That developers and publishers can't be upfront about the inclusion about this, and often sell their games via preorder for a lengthy time without giving this information? And then updates store page information about it as late as the day before release?
5. And that the games I have bought with Denuvo, Dragon Age: Inqusition and Just Cause 3, have been games that have performed poorly for me, with excessive loading times, and where JC3 performed so badly that I had to return it (this being a year after release, after multiple patches)?
6. And where you can add the discussion about longivity for the games on top of all that.
And that all of this is for a component in the game, that is of no value to me as a paying customer?
(I excluded restriction in modding here, because while there's an unease I have about that, it's not something that I want to discuss in greater detail right now).
1) Well, that's not actually a "problem" per se but a consequence of DRM. If Denuvo actually lasted for more than just a few days without being cracked, you'd see that happening even more.
2) Yes, and they were patched and fixed accordingly (and as far as I'm aware pretty fast). Nowadays games are more and more reliant on online features. Denuvo's servers being down is just another example of this. It obviously sucks though.
3) That''s uh... understandable, given the nature of Denuvo's business?
4) Isn't this a publisher issue? Denuvo has nothing to do about it.
5) That's actually interesting and demonstrates how subjective this matter can be. I have both games as well and never had a problem with performance (well, Just Cause 3 isn't optimized for multi core processing so its performance sucks regardless, including consoles).
6) This one I agree.
As a paying customer Denuvo never hurt me in any way. I like that it keeps pirates away from playing the games as long as possible
So we can agree that not all Denuvo hate is Nickelback opinions?
A not uncommon opinion, but I myself don't get why people care that much about what other people do. I'm prepared to pay the asking price for a product, and support devs with DLC purchases. That's where I think my obligation stops, and I don't feel that I want a lesser product with excessive DRM, because of what other people pirate or don't pirate.
Why would you care about how someone else acquires the game? I think they'd do better to try and incentivise legitimate purchases more, rather than trying to punish piracy. Fighting piracy is a lost battle.
Yakuza 0 has just had it's game cracked.
Honestly, anyone who pirates Yakuza had zero intentions of buying it, hopefully this shows Publishers that a pirated sale does not equal a lost one.
The game was like ÂŁ10 on release (And it's fucking fantastic to boot)
Honestly, anyone who pirates Yakuza had zero intentions of buying it, hopefully this shows Publishers that a pirated sale does not equal a lost one.
The game was like ÂŁ10 on release (And it's fucking fantastic to boot)
I'm a customer, not a damn shareholder; it's the publisher's job to justify to me why they use something that is neutral at best and harmful at worst as a paying customer. Yet every chance they've had to do so it's nothing but abstract statements with no actual figures and analysis or tumbleweed rolling by.
🤔🤔🤔
No seriously what the hell is this. Regardless of what you think of them Nickelback is an actual thing who's impact is direct. By it's very nature DRM is a neutral invisible thing at best, and history has frankly shown it to mostly fall in the disruptive "worse experience for paying customer" category.
Pretty easy
" Data shows us that Denuvo doesn't increase sales. It's a completely unnecessary waste of money and resources with no financial benefits to us"
There
Ya
Fucking
Go
You're also a customer part of a small subset of users who actually give a fuck. That's why they don't care. It's all about numbers.
"Data". What data? How reliable is this "data"? Please explain why publishers are still using Denuvo then? Or are they all evil companies wanting our souls and to just overall fuck with their customers for no reason whatsoever?
Used to watch Jim Sterling a lot but you get tired of him pretty quick actually since his content is very samey in every regard. But he still puts out some nice videos every now and then.
Yup, like the guy but damn his "schtick" is getting boring.
"game industry bad' yadayada
I like Jim and I watch most of his videos, he's almost always on point. But he really needs to mix it up a bit, and squeeze some positivity in between all the outrage.
I'd like some analysis on something he likes besides what he doesn't. Be it an industry trend or just a game.
I'd like some analysis on something he likes besides what he doesn't. Be it an industry trend or just a game.
They are using Denuvo because they're afraid the shareholders won't believe that it's useless.
Like.. have you no knowledge of DRM history whatsoever? Companies kept using Draconian DRM after Draconian DRM in the 2000s, despite every single one of them being cracked day zero.
Companies, factually speaking, never gave a shit about its effectiveness. Why should I believe they do now?
Except the Director of Tekken 7 has stated that Denuvo caused frame drops in the game. Which was in Jims video
But lets not silly things like facts get in the way of hating on gamers
Just like it doesn't affect, at all, a much more demanding game in the graphics department:
https://wccftech.com/denuvo-drm-doesnt-impact-performance/
I wonder why there was no mention of this whatsoever in Jim's video huh? It's obvious that Denuvo might cause issues, since it's an added software to an already complex game. However, going back to my first reply, I'm yet to see a single game plagued by the "tanking performance" caused by Denuvo that wasn't patched days or even hours later and effectively fixed the problem.
Again, I'm not "pro" Denuvo. I just find it silly to say things like "won't buy it because of Denuvo" when it's factually proved that Denuvo isn't an issue, at all, in the vast majority of time.
lol
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Interesting I said Tekken 7 and you show me a link about Final Fantasy XV Windows Edition. Is this one of those all Japanese game look the same or did you mean to link another story?
There is an old saying "Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me" I can get why peopel who having paid out a lot of money had a shitty experience because of Denuvo wanting nothing to do with it.
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"Yet to see a single game plagued by the 'tanking performance' caused by Denuvo that wasn't patched days or even hours later"
Ok. Denuvo exists to protect first day/week sales. Exactly when denuvo is the most disruptive to paying customers. It could be argued that denuvo could cost early sales as word of mouth about issues spread. If people have definitive issues and Denuvo has a history of causing day one/week one issues, it cannot be "silly" to say that you won't buy it because of Denuvo. This allows pirates to have the best experience and paying customers to either purchase for their console or wait for a sale. One reduces player count on the PC platform and the other leads to lower revenue for the publisher. No benefit for PC gamers.
You know exactly what I mean.
We could reverse the conversation here and it would work exactly in the same way. One developer states Denuvo is to blame for performance issues (while literally hundreds of others have no issue whatsoever), while allegedly one of the most demanding games on PC right now runs absolutely fine with Denuvo built-in. I'm not saying the devs behind Tekken 7 are a bunch of lying bastards, mind you. What I mean is: a) it's highly likely to be an specific issue with Tekken 7 and b) it's also highly likely it will be fixed in due time if it's DRM related. Like it happened before time and time again. Main takeaway here is that blaming Denuvo for performance issues is quite stupid since I'm yet to see a game affected by DRM that wasn't patched or fixed. There's none, zero.
In other words, blame Denuvo for whatever you want, but not for unresolved performance issues because this is a fucking myth.
Companies using this garbage really need to, up front, commit to removing Denuvo at a later date. Every game with Denuvo is a ticking time bomb, and with how big my backlog is, I can imagine that a Denuvo title I buy might stop working before I get around to playing it. That doesn't exactly fill me with confidence. If companies would commit to removing it from the get-go, setting a clear date to remove, it would solve all sorts of problems.
- Less incentive for pirates to try to crack it, because it's just going to get removed later
- Still protects day 1 sales (and if pirates are less motivated, it will protect them even better, since you're less likely to see day 1 cracks)
- Gives customers an assurance that the game they bought isn't going to just stop working one day
- If Denuvo ends up causing performance issues, they get rectified at some set date (which isn't great, but is better than the situation now)
Does it, though? Every once in a while I read about this "Denuvo might be related to performance issues for game X", but during that same time frame dozens of games are released with no reported issues at all.
Now these are actually good points. The thing about games stopping working down the line is what should be really the focus against Denuvo. DRM should have a lifetime of a few months to protect the biggest bulk of sales, than a patch should be released to completely remove it. That's how I personally think it would work the best.
As I understand it (and if you know better, please correct me, I'm no expert on this), Denuvo works by encrypting certain parts of data in the game. In any large program, 90% of the time is spent in 10% of the code, so the idea is usually to make sure that Denuvo's encryption is applying to that 90%. Some piece of code that runs often enough, but not constantly. Subsequently, if configured wrong (running in critical code), Denuvo is forced to decrypt data much more often than it should, resulting in the performance issues people talk about.
https://www.resetera.com/threads/mo...t-lack-the-fma3-instructions-now-fixed.60963/
https://www.resetera.com/threads/de...-legitimate-owners-of-sonic-mania-plus.56541/
All you need is a handful of examples of major issues for Denuvo to be a potential hindrance on sales.
GTA4 last time I checked still has Games For Windows live I tried to install it. And well I have not been able to install Demise: Rise of the Ku'tan thanks to it's insane DRM. And going way back Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles on the Amsterdam CPC is unplayable without a code sheet and it was printed on paper that cannot be photo copied that fell apart a year after I got the game.I am sure with a little research I can come up with a lot more games with all kinds of DRM.
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Not an expert as well, although I'd say you're not too far off. It's not about implementation per se though, it's about how often it happens because of bad implemenation.
Sonic Mania issues were resolved in 48 hours or less. Monster Hunter World was also quickly patched to solve the issue. It's on the developers/publishers interest to patch DRM-related performance issues as soon as they're detected. I don't understand the backlash for this specific reason. The same thing happens when "game ready drivers" aren't released in time for a newly released game and yes, people complain, but it's a completely different feedback.
I'm specifically talking about Denuvo and its performance implications though. I don't recall GfWL being labeled as a resource hog. It was just poorly thought and implemented DRM which also tried to create it's own ecosystem, a very different beast.
Driver issues are basically "mistakes" that happen. Plenty of driver updates fix or improve performance day one. Its a pro customer service.
Denuvo is the opposite, at best it doesn't have a negative effect. Denuvo is pro publisher service that is often seen a punitive measure for paying customers.
This is exactly why he does this. This is why he made so many episodes about loot boxes and microtransactions, and will continue to do so. A lot of these things in the industry get swept under the rug and forgotten.
You have to be kidding.
I hate Denuvo because I know for sure some games I've bought will be inaccessible in the future.
Also this. We've seen of enough of how consistent publishers are with preserving playability of DRM protected games past the release window.
Classic anti consumer measure through and through.
Diablo 3 was never properly cracked and sold millions. I can see the argument made by both sides. My personal opinion is there should be DRM protection for 3 months and then removed completely. Most sales are front loaded, it would try and protect potential 'lost' sales and would please paying customers in the end. That to me is fair and reasonable all around.
You said "I'm yet to see a game affected by DRM that wasn't patched or fixed. There's none, zero" stop moving the goal posts.
It's a utopic scenario you're describing, that the DRM is being removed after three months. Several stakeholders have an interest in not doing that, so it's not happening.
If you want a product without excessive DRM after three months, the right thing to do is to oppose it from the start.
Denuvo has been removed in other games post launch, I'm sorry you don't want to budge on your position at all.
Yes, from a performance standpoint. That's my whole point since I started posting in this thread. I don't remember Games for Windows Live games performing worse because of it.
Yeah I've had no problems either. I had huge problems with Rockstar Social Club though and skipped playing Max Payne 3 for a long time because of it. But even with Denuvo I have to acknowledge that there are people who've had problems with it. So I wish any dev/pub would remove it after some time, like after half a year. It's often cracked before that anyway.
I know that it has been removed before, but we have no publisher or developer that has done it regularly, where we can see a pattern to rely on.
So that opinion that it's ok as long as they remove it after 3-6 months or something like that is a nice thought, but nothing else so far.
Thus, my stance that if you want a product without Denuvo after a period, you need to to oppose it from start.
Seems like it. Part of the fun for me is seeing how similar some of these videos are.
In general, I'm kinda mixed on the guy - I feel some of his points are disingenuous and not fully thought out before being... uh... spit out as bile, but he is engaging. I just have to keep the critical part of my brain on to toss out the stuff that's not explored fairly.
I also wonder how many that are very vocal against DRM are also opposed to online only games like Destiny 2.
Having server depencies for games that are online only, where the servers are an integral part of the value of the game,. that's quite different from server depencies for a DRM, that's serves no purpose for you as a customer.
User Banned (1 Day): Hostility and inappropriate commentary
I never understood why anyone who is even slightly educated would listen to this fat illiterate piece of garbage.