The first three seconds of the video can easily be interpreted as a spoiler, so I don't recommend watching.
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That Time The Last Of Us Part 2 Was Compared To Schindler's List (The Jimquisition)
- Thread starter Richiek
- Start date
I think that his point about games trying to be interactive films is a good point. Games have their own things that they can do well and when you get someone who uses the medium in an interesting way by doing something that can only be done with a game, then you're creating a work of art. Most of those tend to be indies or smaller budget stuff. Though, I'd argue something like Nier: Automata approaches it, as you've got it doing a lot of interesting stuff with the medium.
The issue is that mechanics have to be in-line with the story, and the oft repeated "this character is just a mass murderer" thing gets in the way a lot.
The issue is that mechanics have to be in-line with the story, and the oft repeated "this character is just a mass murderer" thing gets in the way a lot.
He interjected himself because Jason Schrier thought it would be better to quote Jeff Cannata rather than just sending a DM sorting it out. He felt that would result in dogpiling something that Neil himself has suffered with the leaks. No one had any issue with anyone not liking the game.
I mean you're saying people are "illiterate" or don't have a breath of reference when the real answer is probably one reference sticks out due to both recency and reliable familiarity. I mean one is a very personal attack on people, and the other is that there is a rational explanation that doesn't shit on people's intelligence relative to yours
Some people are going to get mad at the idea that TLOU2 isn't some ingeniously-written masterpiece, but he's right.
I wholeheartedly disagree with Jim and Jason on this one. That was Cannata's take in that it resounded emotionally with him the way that Schindler's List did. I personally wouldn't make that reference. I understand that as a Jewish person, Jason has the right to be offended. But I don't really think Cannata was trying to compare the two in terms of content, but more in context, where it's just unrelenting on the viewer/player. Personally, I feel that the game is more akin to "I Saw The Devil" and elements of "Oldboy." But game and film comparisons are somewhat arbitrary to me.
We should be having these types of discussions around games, and how they make people feel. The Schindler's List comparison was kind of yikes, but I don't think someone should be unrelentingly shamed for it. Just move on.
We should be having these types of discussions around games, and how they make people feel. The Schindler's List comparison was kind of yikes, but I don't think someone should be unrelentingly shamed for it. Just move on.
Spec Ops: The Line is probably the only game that handled the issue well.
Again with this idea that I was offended? The tweet I posted -- the tweet that Jeff Cannata called "manufactured outrage" -- said the following: "Hyperbole is fun and all but if you're thinking about comparing the new zombie video game to a movie about the Holocaust mayyyyybe hit the brakes." I called it clumsy and tacky, not offensive.
Cannata's doubling down and lashing out at anyone who pointed out the same thing (including calling the incredibly talented Leigh Alexander "a parody account") was way more offensive and revealing than his silly analogy.
Cannata's doubling down and lashing out at anyone who pointed out the same thing (including calling the incredibly talented Leigh Alexander "a parody account") was way more offensive and revealing than his silly analogy.
Hang around here long enough and you notice that any comparison of two things is seen as an equivalence. I have no idea how that happened - maybe everyone skipped English/Literature class?
How are people still not getting what he was saying, he was comparing his emotions and feelings between the two. He just said he felt similar going through TLoU 2 as he did watching the movie. He isn't literally comparing the two in content and subject....sheesh.
I mean, it wasn't meant to be a personal attack lol, most people are very illiterate nowadays (including me probably, compared to what I should be). But that doesn't really matter to the point, I was just using that as an example of why takes like the one mentioned tend to happen a lot with video games. It's why you see stuff compared to Schindler's List or Citizen Kane as opposed to say A Boy and His Dog or Ice, for instance. It's a quick pop culture reference that I imagine the critic speaking about probably doesn't even have much familiarity with.
I think it's fair to say you see this more in games than most other mediums. I may be wrong, though, who knows
Haven't watched the video yet, will save it for after I complete the game just in case but I do hope at some point Jim talks about all the far-right targeting and GamerGate tactics that have happened with the game, including the monstrous allegation that Laura Bailey had sex with Neil Druckmann in a scene and when she said that didn't happen they're saying "You're too traumatised, you know it's true" and shit like that.
That needs to be talked about by online critics because it's major bullshit. And what happens when a game made by less influential developers and publishers gets the same treatment?
That needs to be talked about by online critics because it's major bullshit. And what happens when a game made by less influential developers and publishers gets the same treatment?
Nah. Sorry, but it stands with the best of a lot of excellent TV. Theres a reason why a lot of prestige tv writers are starting to get involved in writing games, and vice versa. This old uncritical "it's a videogame so therefore it has nothing of value to say artistically" is outdated Luddite bullshit.
literally all of popular media is a commodity to be sold and made money off of.
Yup. My issue with this whole debate is that a lot of the commentary feels disingenuous in that there's way too much focus on the fact that he 'compared a videogame about zombies to a film about the holocaust'. Yes, fundamentally that is a ridiculous thing to do, but I can also understand that he's comparing them in how he responded to them emotionally and on a personal level. It's a comparison of the effects that two pieces of media have, not their actual subject matters.
Whether or not people think TLOU II is some ingenious piece of entertainment is irrelevant to me. Everyone has their opinions and most are valid. I just don't think the debate represents what Cannata was expressing and just misses the point completely.
Good lord, this so much.
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4 notes.
1) Jason should have said: See, Bioshock's audio logs are a lot like Atlas Shrugged.
2) The Oskar Schindler in Schindler´s List is highly fictionalized. The film is a masterpiece but things like the scene with his watch have nothing to do with historic authenticity. The comparison between the film and TLoU is insane of course.
3) I have finished reading Friday by Robert A. Heinlein this morning. It won the Hugo and Nebula in 1983 and he is one of the 3 most well-regarded (sci-fi) authors of all time. He won many awards and has a crater on Mars named after him. TLoU 2 is better written than that book.
4) The bobblehead test in action:
www.ign.com
Gamers Rise Up was high art all along!
And Martin Scorsese was right, cape shit was never art! Only cape shit produced by Scorsese can be art. See:
Next week´s episode on how AAA games can´t be high art due to AAA design, AAA production and expectations holding them back will be juicy.
Jim lastly loves trash movies. Talking about them is a key component of his podcasts.
Now excuse me. I need to look up if there are Funkos of Salo. Salo is part of the Criterion Collection after all!
www.criterion.com
1) Jason should have said: See, Bioshock's audio logs are a lot like Atlas Shrugged.
2) The Oskar Schindler in Schindler´s List is highly fictionalized. The film is a masterpiece but things like the scene with his watch have nothing to do with historic authenticity. The comparison between the film and TLoU is insane of course.
3) I have finished reading Friday by Robert A. Heinlein this morning. It won the Hugo and Nebula in 1983 and he is one of the 3 most well-regarded (sci-fi) authors of all time. He won many awards and has a crater on Mars named after him. TLoU 2 is better written than that book.
4) The bobblehead test in action:
Want To Buy Joker Merchandise? Too Bad, It Barely Exists - IGN
Joker is one of the biggest movies of the year that isn't getting the traditional pile of licensed toys, costumes, Funko Pops, and t-shirts. So what happened?
It is.
Next week´s episode on how AAA games can´t be high art due to AAA design, AAA production and expectations holding them back will be juicy.
Jim lastly loves trash movies. Talking about them is a key component of his podcasts.
Now excuse me. I need to look up if there are Funkos of Salo. Salo is part of the Criterion Collection after all!
Salò, or The 120 Days of Sodom
The notorious final film from Pier Paolo Pasolini, Salò, or The 120 Days of Sodom has been called nauseating, shocking, depraved, pornographic . . . It’s also a masterpiece. The controversial poet, novelist, and filmmaker’s transposition of the Marquis de Sade’s eighteenth-century opus of...
www.criterion.com
It is awful. Fucking awful.
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He barely talks about the game at all, and not a word about any specific content.
The end of the video implies that he's going to go into the game's content itself in other videos later.
The word overrated never made much sense to me, calling something overrated because you're opinion doesn't align with the vast majority is just odd. You're allowed to say u didn't enjoy something as much as every one else without trying to pass your word off as fact. Part II is great imo so far but not perfect. Haven't finished it yet so I won't say it's their best game but it's top 3.
And I remember people talking about how Logan was a good movie, so i wouldn't limit that to gamers.
Instead of maybe DMing him you chose to quote him for your twitter base to feed off and invite dogpiling. You did not come off any better either.
You would think this was obvious but apparently youtube videos around this and not the recent thread on the preadtory nature of some youtubers/streamers deserves attention from the great Jim Sterling
The whole conversation about games not being capable of telling seminal and powerful stories is kinda disappointing. Just reminds me of how people viewed television before the medium evolved with shows like Breaking Bad etc.
There isn't some grand ranking system that dictates we should take stories from books more seriously than films, and tv and so on. A fantastic story told in a video game can be just as much of an artistic expression as any other.
There isn't some grand ranking system that dictates we should take stories from books more seriously than films, and tv and so on. A fantastic story told in a video game can be just as much of an artistic expression as any other.
I find the rhetoric around TLoU's writing bounces between people overselling it or completely disregarding it. It's either compared to the best Oscar contenders or the worst Hollywood fluff. There's never an in between.
I think personally the writing is comparable to a well-written, plot-driven TV show. One in which the plot is itself driven by characters, whose motivations are always logical but often unpredictable to the viewer. Something like Breaking Bad or Lost (the better seasons at least) seem like an apt comparison.
Film and literature reviews don't offer much better critiques to be honest. I'm an academic in the field of contemporary lit and culture, and my own critical lens might be skewed a bit by that, but I find most reviews for new fiction in The Guardian, Times Literary Supplement etc very very often get caught up in the hype too. I feel that the best criticism always comes after the fact - and it doesn't necessarily have to come from academia. In fact, video games (and popular culture products in general) get a lot of fantastic video essays produced by fans. Video games can and, I think, do benefit a lot from those critiques.
I think personally the writing is comparable to a well-written, plot-driven TV show. One in which the plot is itself driven by characters, whose motivations are always logical but often unpredictable to the viewer. Something like Breaking Bad or Lost (the better seasons at least) seem like an apt comparison.
Film and literature reviews don't offer much better critiques to be honest. I'm an academic in the field of contemporary lit and culture, and my own critical lens might be skewed a bit by that, but I find most reviews for new fiction in The Guardian, Times Literary Supplement etc very very often get caught up in the hype too. I feel that the best criticism always comes after the fact - and it doesn't necessarily have to come from academia. In fact, video games (and popular culture products in general) get a lot of fantastic video essays produced by fans. Video games can and, I think, do benefit a lot from those critiques.
I agree but this is different because Jason's point wasn't about the quality of the game - he hadn't even played it yet (he's playing it now judging by his Twitter). Neil wasn't stepping in to engage somebody criticizing the actual game. I think Neil was just trying to diffuse a situation that he thought could end up snowballing and he thought Jeff's point was simply being misunderstood. Which is a temptation I understand because it sucks to see someone online get dogpiled over something that you think is a misunderstanding.
If I were him I still wouldn't have gotten involved but it is different than going online to bitch at people about negative reviews.
It wasn't though. That comment was from someone who felt TLOU2had as much emotional impact on him as Shindler's List did. Both made him feel similar emotions. It wasn't the best of comparisons, but the guy had no intend of draging the holocaust into it. He just talked about how TLOU2 made him feel things up until then only movies were able to make him feel. Iirc Schreier was offended by the holocaust aspect, and Neil pointed him to the original writer's intent. Haven't followed the whole drama though.
Only series he "praises" is Deadly Premonition. Crappy mechanics with a twin peak knockoff story but that's ok in his book. Shows the hypocrisy.
Only partly. Multiplayer was its biggest offender and even the campaign had a dozen small things that took away from its main theme. Admittedly I have no fucking clue how you could go making a playable video game without more or less falling into this very problem.
Except that is not what happend
This.
People keep saying this, as if Jeff Cannata is some random Twitter user and not a very public podcaster/video personality who posted an opinion in the public discourse to tens of thousands of his followers. It's not "dogpiling" to voice a thought on a public figure's public statement.
While I somewhat disagree with your point, fellow Grant Morrison fan, I do believe that media literacy is somewhat lacking in the gaming community. In any other medium most of the critically acclaimed works of games would be laughed out of town.
Gamers are for some reason super-obsessed with validation of their favorite games as art so there's this sweaty level of desperation to make comparisons to well-known movies and TV. The Schindler's List comment is pretty embarrassing but so was the whole "so and so game is the Citizen Kane of video games" thing from years ago. Some of y'all just need to stop.
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Jim Sterling is literally incapable of creating an argument without reducing everything he's talking about to mindless bullshit.
"TLOU2, a game that lovingly simulates detailed brutal violence and stops every now and them to feel sad about it."
Fuck off, forever with this kind of take.
"TLOU2, a game that lovingly simulates detailed brutal violence and stops every now and them to feel sad about it."
Fuck off, forever with this kind of take.
The discussion was locked here, people barely got a chance to talk about it.
I think it's a discussion worth having. Druckmann's tone in the discussion was not nice and had an underlying coercion towards asking critics and journalists to be quiet.
Yeah, it really is a shame how it all went sideways after that one comment.
People who don't know him think he's a monster but those who've followed him for years understand that he's a good guy with good intentions.
Still can't believe Schreier took the comment out of context and Twitter shamed him over it.
Deadly Premonition is one of gaming's masterpieces. It also does a lot of great stuff specifically within the medium of games, even if it's unrefined.
The thing about the whole "video games as art" discussion is it often revolves around the storytelling. Video games are their own unique medium and they should play to their strengths. They don't need to be chasing movies. I'd consider games like Shadow of the Colossus, Journey, Life is Strange, Limbo, etc . . . better representations of video games as art than Red Dead Redemption 2 or The Last of Us.
I truly don't understand the folks calling you a bully over this. Dude rightfully got called out for a tone deaf ass comparison. The responses from Druckmann and Barlog were gross, and the defense force here for them is even worse.
While I agree that that's what he was trying to convey, it's why using Schindler's List was a poor comparison because the majority of people were going to easily miss his point entirely.