Nobody is denying the cheaper running costs. The problem is Tesla taking those savings into account when showing the price of the product. Which is absolute bullshit and way to mislead customers.
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Tesla news! Standard range Model 3 released, company likely not profitable this quarter
- Thread starter SRG01
- Start date
Yeah, I am not sure why people are missing this. The savings are very real, and it's one of the reasons I'd consider going electric when I have a house with a garage but baking it into the price or illustrating whatsoever that this even has impact on the actual price of the car is just wrong. They need to use less definitive wording like, "we estimate you would save $4300 on gas over 6 years so it is almost like you would be spending xyz on the car". Not just blatantly say "this is now the price of the car". Call it cost impact or something; the definition of price literally means what you pay for something. No one is actually getting that Tesla posted for $61k, and that should never even be hinted at by Tesla.
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It's not that people are missing your point. The fact that Tesla shows both the "price after savings" as well as the "actual" price of the vehicle, and that they explain exactly how they arrive at the after savings number, means that not everyone shares your opinion that they should not be showing the "price after savings" at all.
To me, personally, I see it as a way to further demonstrate the current benefits of EV ownership. Tax credits, federal and local, savings vs gasoline. They don't even really talk about the benefit of reduced maintenance costs (the only wear parts, really, are brakes and tires, and brakes last longer if you take advantage of regenerative braking).
So yeah, we understand what you're saying, we just disagree that it's a huge issue BECAUSE they include both prices and detail how they are calculated.
To me, personally, I see it as a way to further demonstrate the current benefits of EV ownership. Tax credits, federal and local, savings vs gasoline. They don't even really talk about the benefit of reduced maintenance costs (the only wear parts, really, are brakes and tires, and brakes last longer if you take advantage of regenerative braking).
So yeah, we understand what you're saying, we just disagree that it's a huge issue BECAUSE they include both prices and detail how they are calculated.
you can easily do the math, the guy in the video shows you. All you need to know is what you pay in electricity. you can destination charge as much as you want as long as whoever your plugging into doesnt mind. But you shouldnt be super charging all the time, its apparently bad for the battery to do so.
i joined the houston facebook tesla group. Its mildly amusing to me seeing the amount of teslas pulling up to oil and gas companies here in houston.
except that at no point is it ever mentioned that its an instant savings.
except that its literally never listed as the "Purchase Price" go look at my screen grabs. There are always two "purchase price" and "estimated price after savings"
i feel like most of your guys problem is simple semantics.
except that again its never listed as the purchase price. Not sure why this is so hard for some of you to look and see for yourself.
the maintenance is every 4 years battery fluid at ~850 bucks
brakes, whenever you get their fluid changed. They recommend two years but i've read thats pretty aggressive. Also as long as you drive normal and use regen braking you shouldnt ever need to replace the brake pads.
so what would you have them do? Write a whole book on estimated TCO? if your white male age 23 your going to pay a shitload more to insure this car vs if your a white female at 37 and so on and so forth.
The number 1 question i and many others get asked is "so what are you saving on not having to pay for gas" and as shown in my previous post, even at current cheap gas prices and my solar panels not being operational, we still come out ahead of a ICE car gas cost. OBviously your not going to buy a 40k+ tesla and think your going to come out ahead of a 15k honda fit in TCO and gas.
exactly, it would require a lot more.
except that they're not. and its not misleading at all. In fact their estimate is very conservative in what you'll save in gas.
i meant to quote this post but i missed it.
It happens in every tesla thread. Haters and fanboys going at it. I see the financial haters came out over night. Every. thread.
I said it in the last Tesla thread every EV sold is a good thing, even if i wouldnt buy a leaf or bolt. And its 100% a good thing that other manufacturers are finally starting to come out with EV cars. Tesla literally cannot do it by themselves. Every manufacturer needs to commit to it, the global market for cars is insanely huge. I think they will once they see that there is demand for it. For instance someone did analysis on Jaguar. Jaguars ICE sales dipped, by almost the exact amount of Jaguar IPace's they sold. So their EV is cannibalizing sales of their own ICE cars, not necessarily Tesla's.
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You are spending way too much time defending something that is pretty easy to fix. You are acting like it is moving heaven and earth to simply write Estimated Savings: $4300 and simply delete the line "Price after savings: $61k" . Again the literal definition of price is what you pay. While you probably will save $4000 or more on gas, this should NOT be subtracted from the price you paid in any shape way or form, and it should never EVER be represented that way.
You have to go out of your way to not understand what it's saying.
The reaction to that line is so bizarre to me. I can't think of a better "look at that bitch eating crackers" example.
Please look at the initial page when you click "buy". It lists the price as $24k as the price, and it even lists in the bottom right corner "$24k after savings". To anyone coming to this site for the first time, there is nothing to indicate on this page that this will not be the price you are paying out of your bank account when it is all said and done. That is the definition of misleading. Sure after I click a few times and wander through the website to checkout, it finally clarifies what the "purchase price" is, and even then if you really want to see what this price after savings is about you have to keep clicking through on the details link to finally see the rebate information along with them slipping in that that also includes the gas savings. I truly have no idea how some of you are missing why this is pretty messed up.
I am all for Tesla and other EV cars becoming big and taking over, but let's walk through the process of actually buying the car. At first, you pay $35k, then you do your taxes and file your rebates, and your price comes down to roughly $29k depending on your state. That's your final price after savings. Pretending the final price is $25k after 6 years like the gas savings actually subtracts over time is misleading, even if you think only dumb people would fall for it.
Please look at the initial page when you click "buy". It lists the price as $24k as the price, and it even lists in the bottom right corner "$24k after savings". To anyone coming to this site for the first time, there is nothing to indicate on this page that this will not be the price you are paying out of your bank account when it is all said and done. That is the definition of misleading. Sure after I click a few times and wander through the website to checkout, it finally clarifies what the "purchase price" is, and even then if you really want to see what this price after savings is about you have to keep clicking through on the details link to finally see the rebate information along with them slipping in that that also includes the gas savings. I truly have no idea how some of you are missing why this is pretty messed up.
I am all for Tesla and other EV cars becoming big and taking over, but let's walk through the process of actually buying the car. At first, you pay $35k, then you do your taxes and file your rebates, and your price comes down to roughly $29k depending on your state. That's your final price after savings. Pretending the final price is $25k after 6 years like the gas savings actually subtracts over time is misleading, even if you think only dumb people would fall for it.
It says $35k right there where you click next. And as demonstrated it tells you everywhere what's estimated savings and what isn't. This is such a silly thing to concern troll about. It makes no sense.
$35k before savings*
*Before savings actually just means its gonna cost $35k to place the order.
Makes complete sense.
you mean other than the asterisks and the "before savings" right there on the bottom? you seriously cant be serious?Please look at the initial page when you click "buy". It lists the price as $24k as the price, and it even lists in the bottom right corner "$24k after savings". To anyone coming to this site for the first time, there is nothing to indicate on this page that this will not be the price you are paying out of your bank account when it is all said and done. That is the definition of misleading. Sure after I click a few times and wander through the website to checkout, it finally clarifies what the "purchase price" is, and even then if you really want to see what this price after savings is about you have to keep clicking through on the details link to finally see the rebate information along with them slipping in that that also includes the gas savings. I truly have no idea how some of you are missing why this is pretty messed up.
I am all for Tesla and other EV cars becoming big and taking over, but let's walk through the process of actually buying the car. At first, you pay $35k, then you do your taxes and file your rebates, and your price comes down to roughly $29k depending on your state. That's your final price after savings. Pretending the final price is $25k after 6 years like the gas savings actually subtracts over time is misleading, even if you think only dumb people would fall for it.
On one hand, I am saying I like Tesla, I want EVs to take over, and I fully agree with there being tremendous savings in gas over time.
Yet you think I am concern trolling? Take the personal attacks and walk away if you want then.
Do you really not know what $xx,xxx after savings infers? It infers that is the number that will actually be coming out of your bank account. I am seriously confused how you are not understanding what the definition of price is. Again, like it has been said to you 5 times now, no one disagrees with the fact there is some serious gas savings to be had with these cars. Tesla can advertise the hell out of it for all I care, but it does not impact the price of the car. If you cannot understand this, I do think you are misunderstanding the math quite a bit or you are just defending Tesla for the sake of defending them.
Not good enough. I need a batter that can handle at least 300 miles of range so I can get from DFW to Houston in one go, and I need less than $20k. I'll wait another 10 years.
Fanboys always gonna take things personally instead of rationally.
Seriously, man, it is like talking to brick walls. We all are on Tesla's side, lol. Promote the hell out of the gas savings, it is a big deal, but representing it within the price of the car whether you put a * on it or call it purchase price or don't call it purchase price, it is not solid business ethics.
This is like someone buying solar panels, and the solar panel company representing the cost savings as the price. Imagine you going from paying $1200 a year for electricity, and then the solar panel company comes over and says that after installation your price is basically -$1200.
Like, what? No, it's not. That would infer the company is actually paying you $1200.
User Banned (1 Day): Hostility and antagonizing other members
dude, i freaking bought one and outlined the entire process. at no point was it ever unclear how much im paying.
again, as i said originally when this came up last night, you'd have to be an abject moron to not understand what your paying.
yea, we're all just idiot fanboys with no rationality. fuck off m8's.
Please look at the initial page when you click "buy". It lists the price as $24k as the price, and it even lists in the bottom right corner "$24k after savings". To anyone coming to this site for the first time, there is nothing to indicate on this page that this will not be the price you are paying out of your bank account when it is all said and done. That is the definition of misleading. Sure after I click a few times and wander through the website to checkout, it finally clarifies what the "purchase price" is, and even then if you really want to see what this price after savings is about you have to keep clicking through on the details link to finally see the rebate information along with them slipping in that that also includes the gas savings. I truly have no idea how some of you are missing why this is pretty messed up.
I am all for Tesla and other EV cars becoming big and taking over, but let's walk through the process of actually buying the car. At first, you pay $35k, then you do your taxes and file your rebates, and your price comes down to roughly $29k depending on your state. That's your final price after savings. Pretending the final price is $25k after 6 years like the gas savings actually subtracts over time is misleading, even if you think only dumb people would fall for it.
Yeah, this page really isn't clear which is the actual price of the car you pay.
We are all abject morons because we are calling out a shitty practice of not being up-front about purchase prices.
How would you feel if after a solar panel company installed your panels, they told you the price after 5 years was approximately -$5000 (assuming you paid $1000 per year for electricity prior to the installation of the panels)? What do you think representing the price as -$5000 implies rather than representing it as a savings of $5000?
There is a big difference between calling something "savings" and calling something "price after savings".
Well at least you admitted it is a shitty business practice. That's progress.
OP
OP
I'm going to approach the price presentation another way: the cost of ownership for any asset should be presented as the initial purchase price plus any ongoing costs. For instance:
$40000 + $1k/y upkeep.
When Tesla presents it as:
$40000 - $2k/y savings
that is being very disingenuous because it hides what a person is actually paying per year. The proper way to do this comparison is to give both values: the price per year for electricity, with a compared savings to a given gasoline vehicle of the same class.
$40000 + $1k/y upkeep.
When Tesla presents it as:
$40000 - $2k/y savings
that is being very disingenuous because it hides what a person is actually paying per year. The proper way to do this comparison is to give both values: the price per year for electricity, with a compared savings to a given gasoline vehicle of the same class.
One thing to consider is insurance is typically higher for Tesla vehicles. You will probably be paying at least an extra $500 a year for insurance compared to comparable vehicles, and that's never mentioned anywhere.
The annual tag renewal is also a lot higher (at least in California). I just renewed on my Model 3 which I got last march and it was 4x the cost of my previous car (an 05 Corolla). The increase in insurance and tags exactly off-sets the savings I have from gas. I really do wish Tesla would stop listing the prices that way. It made sense with the tax rebates since that was a relatively quick turn around, but with gas savings, there are just way too many other variables for it to be an honest representation of the cost of the vehicle. It is one of the few criticisms of Tesla on this forum that I find legitimate.
For what it's worth, I wish they showed both prices in the "Select Your Car" section, too. Yes, the actual price is at the bottom next to the giant "Next" button, but it'd certainly clarify things if they did that.
For Tesla Model 3 owners, how much more is the insurance verus your previous car or cars you were considering? I have read that the Model 3 is considered a luxury car by most insurance companies which is why the rates are higher, and also that it was a 40K+ vehicle up until yesterday. I am going to call my insurance company next week to get Model 3 rates vs the Hybrid Accord and Camry.
The lengths people go to defend this company, holy shit.
On topic, good news that the Standard is coming.
On topic, good news that the Standard is coming.
Mine is $20/month more to insure than my Sentra SE-R Spec V, which was 10 years old at the time.
Mine was similar, about $15 more a month compared to a 7 year old 3 series coupe.
I get that it doesn't mean much to you but branding, marketing, and demographics are extremely critical to a company's success. Especially a disruptor like Tesla. It's super important to generate a certain mythology or culture around your products because it keeps customers loyal and gives them something to identify with, which draws others in too because everybody wants to belong to something. Business school 101 homie. This shit is a science.
Also damn, TSLA took a tumble today. Going online-only for sales is great for the future but it's definitely a short term PR disaster. Guess I'll be loading up at this new low price.
I wonder what the rates on a $35k Model 3 will be once their leasing program kicks in.
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"Image" is only as important as a consumer makes it out to be. I don't disagree at all with your first statement - but clearly you and I have different priorities, because you seem to care about the "mythology" and "culture" of the car you buy a lot more than I do.
I sure do, and so does almost everybody else in the market for premium cars or premium electronics, or clothes, or whatever. Branding is crucial. Pedigree is everything. And it's reflected through the design and the overall feel of the product. Even the engineering is tied into it, the car is made to drive and feel a certain way that blends into the aesthetic, the marketing, and the user. Again, it's a fucking science.
It's why BMW and Porsche get away with barebones features in their base model cars (manual seats, no leather, minimal tech, etc) when you compare it to a high end Subaru or Honda at the same price which is fully loaded.
Porsche puts the ignition key on the left side so you feel like a 1940's race car driver doing a running start, jumping into the car to turn the key with your left hand and shift into gear with your right. Details, history, engineering. It's more than just "X has less features for the same price as Y" it's about "X makes me feel like Z, when Y doesn't" Psychology is powerful, companies spend billions on it.
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From an economics perspective, the high cost of a Tesla (at least when the model 3 is released in Australia) negates whatever fuel savings I would hope to make when compared to running a standard conventional car. Haven't done the maths yet to determine after how many years it would take to break even and pull ahead running an EV at that price point.
I love the tech that goes into these cars (not a fan of the Model 3 interior though) but if I was going to go with the EV route, I'd probably look at the Kona or the Niro once the prices are around the 35K AUD mark (though these cars don't have the fancy auto pilot tech or the AWD of the Tesla's).
I love the tech that goes into these cars (not a fan of the Model 3 interior though) but if I was going to go with the EV route, I'd probably look at the Kona or the Niro once the prices are around the 35K AUD mark (though these cars don't have the fancy auto pilot tech or the AWD of the Tesla's).
Um, you know how things can be made to be misleading, right? I don't get why it's so hard for some of you to understand that it's common convention to have the final price you pay at the bottom of a tally and to have a figure that isn't the final price can be construed as misleading and disingenuous.
Case in point - go to the Australian Tesla site and get to the same screen. What's the price at the bottom? Oh it's the actual final price you pay, with the guesstimate price after fuel savings at the top instead. I wonder why? Maybe because it could possibly contravene Australian laws against misleading consumers? Hmmm?
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FYI we test drove cars today (Camry Hybrid, Accord Hybrid, Sonata) and I inquired about the Rav4 hybrid. A month ago it was on their website and I saw that my local dealer had 10 on order. From what I had read and seen on YouTube it was supposed to be out this month.
The dealer said they have been informed it is now being released "summer".
After the test drives for us it is either the Accord hybrid, Rav4 hybrid or Model 3. We will be driving the 3 in the next few weeks and we aren't looking to purchase until summer, although sooner if we choose the 3 so we don't lose out on the tax credit.
You can always toggle the estimate by putting $0 cost for gas, and then it won't do it.
However, I had a pretty large SUV in CA. Gas could be like $40-60 a week, so maybe $2k a year. Right now I can charge at work, but even if I wasn't it's still a bit cheaper.
https://electrek.co/2019/03/02/tesla-cut-employee-compensation-layoff/
They just opened 11 new stores in December. Something must have gone terribly wrong in Q1 for Tesla to change course so drastically. I also don't understand the large price drops on their higher trim Model S and Model X. It's really hard to get that margin back. This is a short term demand boost at the cost of long term margins.
They just opened 11 new stores in December. Something must have gone terribly wrong in Q1 for Tesla to change course so drastically. I also don't understand the large price drops on their higher trim Model S and Model X. It's really hard to get that margin back. This is a short term demand boost at the cost of long term margins.
A transcription of the (probably in violation of securities law) closed conference call with select media, including some who own Tesla stock.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/39ncy19q7t2id1r/Tesla Call Transcript (2.28.19).pdf?dl=0
Some snippets among a bunch of sycophantry.
Wut.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/39ncy19q7t2id1r/Tesla Call Transcript (2.28.19).pdf?dl=0
Some snippets among a bunch of sycophantry.
Wut.
Pissing off recent customers through massive price drops / spec changes and fucking over their sales staff by not providing severance... nice!
In the call with reporters Elon said 78% of orders came from online and 80% of orders were made without a test drive. So they're restructuring to a leaner more efficient sales model along with continued cost improvements in manufacturing efficiency and especially battery costs which are rapidly dropping due to the scale of the production. They generally pass those savings immediately on to customers either by cutting price or adding value/features to the cars while maintaining margins this isn't new. The margins might take a small hit short term with restructuring costs, but definitely not long term
I guess, but having bought one, then only place you see this price is on the initial marketing website. It is VERY clear what you are paying for their cars moving forward. I would also like to say that they gave me an AMAZING trade in deal on a 2012 Honda Pilot. I'm willing to bet they gave me more than I would have received had a sold it on my own. I've put 20k miles on my Tesla Model 3 since my purchase in July of last year. I'm really excited that the prices are dropping so that other people can jump in. They are such a fantastic vehicle. I can understand that some people might be rubbed the wrong way on the price drop of the FSD. I never purchased upfront though and I'll be hopping on that next month. I have owned 8 cars in my 22 years of holding a driver's license and this is by far my favorite vehicle. It is so damn comfortable and my mind is still blown when I realize that I never have to put a drop of gasoline into it.
The fact that they don't even attempt to do this on the EU, AUS, website show that it's deceptive marketing.
Because the consumer laws over there forbid Tesla from doing just what you are excusing.
Read earlier another accident is being investigated where a Tesla went under the trailer of a truck. Apparently it was similar to one that occurred a few years back so they are looking to see if the auto pilot was at fault.
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/03/feds-investigating-deadly-friday-tesla-crash-in-florida/?amp=1
So many issues going on at this company. People were predicting tough times ahead but things seem to be snowballing quickly at the moment.
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/03/feds-investigating-deadly-friday-tesla-crash-in-florida/?amp=1
So many issues going on at this company. People were predicting tough times ahead but things seem to be snowballing quickly at the moment.
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I'm not excusing it. What I am saying is that that price complete DISAPPEARS from the process after you actually select the BUY option. The FULL purchase price is also displayed on the screen at the same time as the cost savings price. Also, having owned the car , no oil changes, no gas, no transmission, and regenerative breaking could result in some pretty HUGE cost savings.
My car charges in my garage and I have seen perhaps, a $20-$30 increase in my monthly utility bill which when compared to what we were previously driving, a Honda Pilot, has saved us a ton of cash. I don't see the issue with them marketing on this at all. The savings are real when compared to an ICE vehicle.