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Ablacious

Member
Dec 23, 2018
1,650
No. It's just lying. He frames his argument to mean that the middle class would take the brunt of paying for it.
The Bernie plan raised taxes on the middle class, too. You can argue that the cost is offset by deductibles disappearing, but people don't see things like that.
You couldn't get it by just taxing the upper class and 1%. And that's kinda what his answer was about.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
I only feel optimistic thanks to a recession and global pandemic. Otherwise I'd be horrified.
 

Kurdel

Member
Nov 7, 2017
12,157
the "rose twitter" thing is just a way to discredit literally any criticism from leftists

Had a feeling about that!

This answer was in response to a question about what a cop should do if someone is charging them with a knife.

Shooting them in the leg seems fine. Most cops won't do that, they'll just kill the assailer.

I don't think the cops should be shooting anyone, but that's just me and my wacky ideas lol
 

Deleted member 3896

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,815
Fuck Biden...

For anyone else...Vote for him if you are in a swing state... but if you don't want to, I'd understand.

But yeah Fuck Joe Biden.
No. Vote for him even if you're in the deepest blue area of the deepest blue state. We need this to be an utter and complete repudiation of Trump and this administration.
 

Belthazar90

Banned
Jun 3, 2019
4,316
Not my place to comment on Biden but on the bolded and underlined, as a Canadian I also want to set the record straight. The Dem's isn't a right wing party, that's a very skewed view of the world. In some small European country that's very progressive, that may be the case, but on average, the Dems is a centre left party. The Canadian centre left (Liberal party) identify with and sometimes even share (dual citizen) staff with the Democratic party.

It's really the left wing of the left that has built up this notion that there's no difference. It's irritating on a personal level because it simplifies and dismissies discussions in a way that i think is not helpful. Europeans like Canadians like to feel good about ourselves at the expense of the Americans, but myths like these are unhelpful.

I wasn't trying to offend anyone, I was genuinely wanting to know. My misundersting comes from the fact that in my country it would be a given for any center-left or left leaning party to have a firm stance in defense of free/universal access to helthcare, education (including college) being free for everyone, etc. while it's not the case with the Democratic Party.

I didn't take into account how by being in a bi-partisan system the two parties need to accomodate a lot of points of view and for that I'm really sorry.
 

Deleted member 4614

Oct 25, 2017
6,345
Had a feeling about that!



I don't think the cops should be shooting anyone, but that's just me and my wacky ideas lol

Yeah obviously "not shooting" would be preferable but it doesn't really fit the hypothetical where they're going to die if they don't defend themselves.
 

Kurdel

Member
Nov 7, 2017
12,157
Yeah obviously "not shooting" would be preferable but it doesn't really fit the hypothetical where they're going to die if they don't defend themselves.

Yeah it's a fundamentally dumb hypotherical that serves jack shit, I think that we can all agre on that!

They really want us to stop believing the things we literally see happen in real time.

Like...???

The fact that people can't just vote for someone, they also need to identify and love them, has ALWAYS been weird to me.

Like I said, I voted for blackface Trudeau, I get harm reduction. But going that extra mile to paint Biden as some kind of secret breath of fresh air or "good actually"? lol
 

Kurdel

Member
Nov 7, 2017
12,157
He didn't even say that so you're upset at something you never saw.

I mean you are technically right, he said an unarmed person WITH a knife lol

"Instead of standing there and teaching a cop, when there's an unarmed person coming at them with a knife or something, you shoot them in the leg instead of in the heart is a very different thing. There's a lot of different things that could change," Biden said in a meeting with community leaders at Bethel AME Church in Wilmington, Del.
 

Madison

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,388
Lima, Peru
This is why. Every time a pollster points out to people that Medicare for All means they'd be kicked off their private insurance, support drops. When people hear "Medicare for All," most of them imagine a public option where it's available to all, not forced upon all.
I mean, yes, if you describe a policy with negative connotation support will drop. If you read the way the kaiser poll frames the questions, its actually fairly informative.
Fig-14-Single-Payer-Chartpack-20200526.png

They are being pretty clear that "all Americans would get their insurance from a single government plan". Its not just asking "do you support M4A".

Now, you might argue "well that 67% might change their minds after finding out about their private insurance going kaput" but its all about messaging. Of course if you say "150 million people will lose their coverage!" like Biden did during the primary then yeah, some people will get nervous.

But keep in mind, even after being trashed by people during the entire primary, Single Payer Medicare 4 All literally has majority support in a poll released by Kaiser.

If your argument is that the public option is better because more people support it, I would say that literally rebuilding the health care apparatus in a way that will save more lives is worth the 11% of difference. Its not like M4A has 30% and Public Option has 67%. The difference between a bandaid and an actual health revolution is...11%.
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,342
Buddy the poll you linked literally shows that Medicare 4 All has 57% approval. Please tell that im seeing something wrong in your post because you seem to be asking "How can we know that most of America supports single payer" when you posted the receipts you are looking for!
This is why. Every time a pollster points out to people that Medicare for All means they'd be kicked off their private insurance, support drops. When people hear "Medicare for All," most of them imagine a public option where it's available to all, not forced upon all.

Right. In general, much like the term "neoliberal," there's not really a clear definition that people agree to. You can poll "M4A" as a public option, single payer similar to Canada, single payer like Sanders' plan (which I always want to remind people, bans all private insurance and offers more coverage than any nation on Earth by a wide mile), etc...

The "keep your insurance" thing is always the toughest part. Sanders' plan promises that this is possible, but the same bill also stipulates that it needs millions of dollars to create an agency for people who lose coverage for something/can't see the doctor they want. So there's even an acknowledgement there that some of these plans do not in fact let you keep your doctor.

As for the OP's point, people need to get out more. Biden is above 50% is raw favorability polling (so, not "Biden or Trump" but just straight up "do you like Joe Biden?"). The majority of the country likes the guy. Some people might still be harboring negative feelings from the primary (which was altered according to almost every demand by Sanders' camp, so there's really no excuse of "DNC fucked it" here), but those people are statistically in the minority.
 

¡Hip Hop!

Member
Nov 9, 2017
1,837
The fact that people can't just vote for someone, they also need to identify and love them, has ALWAYS been weird to me.

Like I said, I voted for blackface Trudeau, I get harm reduction. But going that extra mile to paint Biden as some kind of secret breath of fresh air or "good actually"? lol
Agreed. We don't need to pretend like Biden is something he's not. People are not excited about Biden. They want Trump out.
 

XaviConcept

Art Director for Videogames
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,986
I think hes too old and I think he is not as quick nor as sharp as he needs to be for the position. His politics are definitely a step back from Obama and Im deeply concerned that our best choices after Obama was to go back to the baby Boomer well.

That being said, he will make a way, way better President than Trump and Im not surprised that voters might flock to some old white dude that isnt Trump. Winning the Senate is really going to be the key component of that election, however.
 

Madison

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,388
Lima, Peru
Right. In general, much like the term "neoliberal," there's not really a clear definition that people agree to. You can poll "M4A" as a public option, single payer similar to Canada, single payer like Sanders' plan (which I always want to remind people, bans all private insurance and offers more coverage than any nation on Earth by a wide mile), etc...
Sure, M4A is used liberally sometimes, but the poll listed is not one of those cases (unless you want the question to be "do you acknowledge that M4A will kick you out of your private insurance alongside 150 million people" which would be, you know, not exactly terrific framing). The question isnt vague, it tells the person that they would get their insurance from "a single government plan".

I replied to the original poster because they said "i wanna see the receipts of M4A having majority support" while showing a poll in which a decently framed question gave out that hey, M4A does have majority support. So...am I missing something?
 

Barzul

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,965
Biggest reason I want him is he would sign legislation the Democratic House puts forward. Very little chance he'd veto police reform, immigration reform, student loan reform etc.
 

Quzar

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,166
Oct 25, 2017
12,319
I still can't believe people can talk about how much they care about the minority and persecuted communities within the country, and how important it is for people to have healthcare, but when the time comes to actually vote and put people in place to make things better, they refuse to, putting their own sense of self righteousness over the millions who could be harmed by the results of the election.
What a fucking joke these people are.
 

bananab

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,878
Old enough that his candidacy means I probably won't see real change in my lifetime. Will likely vote for him solely as least-worst. He's nothing but not-trump to me. He's not Hillary but he feels like Kerry. I feel he will lose, or if he doesn't he's just a pause on a further swing to the far right.
 

Beer Monkey

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,308
The Democratic party is WAY left of the Republican party. They might not be as left as you want, but the difference honestly has not been this pronounced in well over half a century.

And the way our system of government works, it's a pipe dream to imagine that a Bernie presidency would actually accomplish anything more left than a Biden one would. That is a naive fantasy.
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,342
unless you want the question to be "do you acknowledge that M4A will kick you out of your private insurance alongside 150 million people" which would be, you know, not exactly terrific framing)

This is relevant framing though. Let the GOP lie to people but we shouldn't do it. Otherwise these systems can fail (Vermont and California have tried their own plans, to poor results). What happens when the bill hits the floor and the cost goes over poorly? Or we pass it and somebody loses their plan (guaranteed) or their doctor (pretty likely)?

Why go down the road of Republicans on this stuff? Be honest about the cost, be honest about what it'll do, and be open to addressing flaws. There's not a single country on Earth that's pulled off the Sanders version of this. We should be honest about that and humble about potential issues.
 

Kurdel

Member
Nov 7, 2017
12,157
The Democratic party is WAY left of the Republican party. They might not be as left as you want, but the difference honestly has not been this pronounced in well over half a century.

And the way our system of government works, it's a pipe dream to imagine that a Bernie presidency would actually accomplish anything more left than a Biden one would. That is a naive fantasy.

I mean, they are both neo-liberal capitalist parties who agree on the need for american imperialism, "way left" is still an utterly shitty and morally bankrupt position when talking about the US democrats as an institution...
 

Titik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,490
People keep saying that Joe will move left, that he's willing to be pushed, and I've just seen no evidence of that. Vote for him if you want, harm reduction, yada yada, but don't pretend he's something he's not.
Have you not seen 30+ years of his record? Plus the analysis by actual historians and political scientists?
 

Sexy Fish

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,397
The Democratic party is WAY left of the Republican party. They might not be as left as you want, but the difference honestly has not been this pronounced in well over half a century.

And the way our system of government works, it's a pipe dream to imagine that a Bernie presidency would actually accomplish anything more left than a Biden one would. That is a naive fantasy.

The irony is that with how well the Senate is looking with Biden as the nominee he'd honestly get more progressive legislation passed under him than Bernie.

Bernie would have no chance carrying the Senate with him if he won the presidency.
 

Deleted member 41502

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 28, 2018
1,177
The 2 part system doesn't do anything but make this a reality. I personally have to think

1) who would have the best chance to defeat Trump
2) who would have the best chance to defeat Trump
3) who would have the best chance to defeat Trump and win the Senate

This is my own perspective.
It's also the year states will redraw their districts! Vote for your local dems to end gerrymandering!
 

showbry

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15
Agreed. We don't need to pretend like Biden is something he's not. People are not excited about Biden. They want Trump out.
Yeah, I think there's some delusion in thinking the main reason that Biden is doing well is because of the way he is campaigning. Covid and the protests is really what is swaying public opinion and I think pretty much any dem at this point would see a large increase in their support if they were running. Before the economy tanked Trump was on a pretty good path to reelection, and Biden albeit may have been competitive, he certainly wasn't a candidate that was going to cause a landslide.
 

Titik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,490
Yeah, I think there's some delusion in thinking the main reason that Biden is doing well is because of the way he is campaigning. Covid and the protests is really what is swaying public opinion and I think pretty much any dem at this point would see a large increase in their support if they were running. Before the economy tanked Trump was on a pretty good path to reelection, and Biden albeit may have been competitive, he certainly wasn't a candidate that was going to cause a landslide.
Biden is popular with core Democrats.

He was also winning before covid19 went into full force and before George Floyd was murdered. He had an average lead of about 5 points before all this shit went down.

Let's not change and edit history here.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,986
Last edited:

showbry

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15
Biden is popular with core Democrats.

He was also winning before covid19 went into full force and before George Floyd was murdered. He had an average lead of about 5 points before all this shit went down.

Let's not change and edit history here.
5 points nationally? That's a lot different then 10 or 11. Because of the electoral college 5 points isn't winning the election, in fact it's a pretty close race.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,590
Racoon City
The medicare-4-all clarification doesn't really matter when you think about it. If your position is healthcare is a right for everyone then by extension you have to accept that costs will be a thing at some point in this, hundreds of billions if not some trillions WILL be spent. So you (he) can't say he's for it but only if it's not going to cost a steep bit.

It will
 

ryseing

Bought courtside tickets just to read a book.
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,546
For lovers
The Senate is in play with Biden.

RBG and Breyer are retiring in the next four years regardless of who the President is.

I'll take the continuation of the 5-4 Court and hopefully at least two years of Democrat control of Congress. At 5-4 Roberts is not going to be the swing vote on something like repealing Roe. 6-3 or 7-2 where he doesn't have to be? Whole lot dicier.
 

Titik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,490
5 points nationally? That's a lot different then 10 or 11. Because of the electoral college 5 points isn't winning the election, in fact it's a pretty close race.
It wasn't gonna stay at 5 points becuase that's how campaigning works but the point still stands that Biden was already popular before those external events happened.
 

Lyude77

Member
Dec 19, 2017
168
Sure, M4A is used liberally sometimes, but the poll listed is not one of those cases (unless you want the question to be "do you acknowledge that M4A will kick you out of your private insurance alongside 150 million people" which would be, you know, not exactly terrific framing). The question isnt vague, it tells the person that they would get their insurance from "a single government plan".

I replied to the original poster because they said "i wanna see the receipts of M4A having majority support" while showing a poll in which a decently framed question gave out that hey, M4A does have majority support. So...am I missing something?
I wanted to know if I was missing something from how it had been presented to me previously but this conversation answered it, thanks. Seems like it's a framing thing. I also don't like asking questions without doing a basic Google search, so that's why I found my own receipts, lol.

I just remembered hearing "oh those 10 democrats sunk their campaign right at the start because the majority was against M4A" all primary but that doesn't seem like it was the case in retrospect, or at least it's not clear that it's the case.
 

Whowasphone

Member
Sep 21, 2019
1,049
Nonsense?

At least I'm being honest about my feelings...and not BSing others to like someone who doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt, like Era has been doing for a few months now.

Let him prove and continue to prove himself when it counts... until then fuck him.
I may not be American but I have watched plenty of the democratic nominees express their views and stances. Believe it or not Trump remaining in office is a world-wide concern and it would be a tremendous relief if he was replaced with someone capable of repairing the damage caused over the past 4 years.

That said this poster is not saying anything unacceptable in my view regarding Biden. I understand there appears to be no option but to support him, but the cult-like acceptance of the man with complete disregard for all that made him the least desirable option from the democratic side is more than a little uncomfortable.

I apologize for overstepping my boundaries being an outsider but I'm surprised more posters here aren't expressing their frustration with Joe
 

Deleted member 3896

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,815
I still can't believe people can talk about how much they care about the minority and persecuted communities within the country, and how important it is for people to have healthcare, but when the time comes to actually vote and put people in place to make things better, they refuse to, putting their own sense of self righteousness over the millions who could be harmed by the results of the election.
What a fucking joke these people are.
Yup, it's fucking shameful.

Better things aren't good enough!
 

Mr. Keith

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,944
I know a lot of people are torn up about M4A not getting the support it deserves but I always wonder what would happen to it after another Republican is inevitably elected president.

Does it get smashed to pieces like Obamacare? Will we have to deal with our healthcare getting messed with every 8 years?
 
Oct 25, 2017
29,713
I feel it's less Biden being significantly better looking directly but more like Trump has just been disaster after disaster nearly every week since March
 

Daphne

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,716
I despise Biden.

The fact someone like him can have a long and glorious career culminating, hopefully, in being President, while consistently being a terrible piece of shit and throwing everyone under the bus, then scrapping the bus, is simply another example of how fucked the system is.

He gets no credit for beating Trump from me. People hate Trump. A literal sack of shit would beat Trump. Biden's only virtue is not being Trump while placating the shitty voter base of the US by also being a pure establishment center-right moderate with all the attendant racism, misogyny, conservatism and class warfare that entails.

The fact the right is so fucking atrociously horrific is why people like Biden can succeed in making sure nothing really changes in our awful late-capitalist, corporate shithole of a society. It's a true symbiotic relationship.

Fuck Biden, and fuck that he's who we have to rely on and fuck the poor President he will be. We work with what we've got, I guess, but only because Trump must be destroyed.

Don't expect me to like it or him though.
 

Dekuman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,042
The Senate is in play with Biden.

RBG and Breyer are retiring in the next four years regardless of who the President is.

I'll take the continuation of the 5-4 Court and hopefully at least two years of Democrat control of Congress. At 5-4 Roberts is not going to be the swing vote on something like repealing Roe. 6-3 or 7-2 where he doesn't have to be? Whole lot dicier.

Yep, flipping the senate and securing the balance in the supreme court are super critical.
 

CosmicPanda

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
842
I despise Biden.

The fact someone like him can have a long and glorious career culminating, hopefully, in being President, while consistently being a terrible piece of shit and throwing everyone under the bus, then scrapping the bus, is simply another example of how fucked the system is.

He gets no credit for beating Trump from me. People hate Trump. A literal sack of shit would beat Trump. Biden's only virtue is not being Trump while placating the shitty voter base of the US by also being a pure establishment center-right moderate with all the attendant racism, misogyny, conservatism and class warfare that entails.

The fact the right is so fucking atrociously horrific is why people like Biden can succeed in making sure nothing really changes in our awful late-capitalist, corporate shithole of a society. It's a true symbiotic relationship.

Fuck Biden, and fuck that he's who we have to rely on and fuck the poor President he will be. We work with what we've got, I guess, but only because Trump must be destroyed.

Don't expect me to like it or him though.
i agree with you Biden is dead last in my presidental democrate line up.