Star Wars: The Last Jedi |OT3| The War is Just Beginning (Unmarked Spoilers)

[Deleted member 13131]

I was trying to say what I said below that intro, re: we needed to see things, not be told things. We were told Ben was bad and Luke hesitated and that's what those flashbacks amounted to. That's why people don't buy it, because it goes against everything they've seen in the OT and the overall message of that trilogy. If you want to subvert that, you need to work harder than just flip it and call it a day..

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I think Luke's moment of weakness works because it's consistent with how he behaved in the OT, and with his overall personality. Generally, being impulsive, but specifically reacting strongly to future acts against what he holds dear. It's why he left Yoda's training early, and what makes him snap at Vader in RotJ. A reflexive reaction to a powerful and dire vision of pain and loss to come is in line with that, but the restraint and hesitation showed his growth since the OT. I think it's critical that a vision of destruction to come is what does it; it's basically a callback to how he responded in the OT.

Ok, just got done with my second viewing. Pretty sure its now my favorite Star Wars film.

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Same, my second viewing really bumped it up. And third, and fourth...

 

[BFIB]

You and I - friends.

Saw it for 3d time, went for that Dolby Cinema they built in Lyon - damn now that's impressive. Here's hoping for a stellar 4k release.
My friend who usually isn't into Star Wars was also very impressed. So you lose some you gain some.

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Yeah, walking in knowing what to expect completely changed it for me. My first viewing, I had this thought in my head of who Luke was going to be, how the story was going to go, so I was blindsided when it went in completely different directions. This time, knowing Luke's story, Kylo and Rey's story, yeah, this time it really hit hard. The first time when Luke died, I didn't cry, I was more in shock, but this time, letting it all flow, yeah, it bawled at that part.

 

[Deleted member 11039]

Unlike murdering children, adults, and partaking in a fascist regime for 30 years...

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Actually very similar in fact. I've made the same argument about the prequels. They made Vader so terrible and unlikeable that who cares about his redemption. Luckily that stuff was awful PT junk though and I can ignore it from the OT.

This movie is leagues better than the PT but that specific story beat is PT level of awfulness for me.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Can we go back to Episode III and acknowledge how Obi-an did the ultimate stupid Final Girl move in a slasher film by walking away and assuming the great killer was dead instead of doing the right thing and freeing Vader's head from his body.

 

[Alice]

I understood it just fine.

Sneaking into your nephews room, reading his mind and instinctually pulling your saber on him is creepy beyond redemption. My lasting image of Luke Skywalker from this movie isn't him starring at the dual suns or looking courageous in front of the FO, it's him hovering over his nephews bed with his saber drawn. It's such a low point to take someone there's no making up for it.

Luke Skywalker screwed up monstrously. Luke Skywalker who redeemed the irredeemable in the OT justified Kylo's turn to darkness with his actions here. That's not ok. That's not in character. That's not an interesting take on the character to me.

If you're okay with that then so be it. Trying to reduce every argument to "you just didn't get" is dishonest and weak though.

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You've more than shown that you didn't understand it all over this thread. You've been amazingly dishonest about how and why he pulled out his saber and keep presenting it as "creepy" and "murderous". Obviously you didn't understand what he said and what was going through his mind.

Not to mention that you keep latching onto Kylo's telling, not Luke's. Dishonest? That's you and your hate-on for the film.

I think Luke's moment of weakness works because it's consistent with how he behaved in the OT, and with his overall personality. Generally, being impulsive, but specifically reacting strongly to future acts against what he holds dear. It's why he left Yoda's training early, and what makes him snap at Vader in RotJ. A reflexive reaction to a powerful and dire vision of pain and loss to come is in line with that, but the restraint and hesitation showed his growth since the OT. I think it's critical that a vision of destruction to come is what does it; it's basically a callback to how he responded in the OT.

Same, my second viewing really bumped it up. And third, and fourth...

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Exactly, some people confuse their fanfiction Luke with the canon Luke. Which isn't bad in itself, but when it goes on for 20+ pages, holy hell is it sad.

 

[Mockerre]

I think Luke's moment of weakness works because it's consistent with how he behaved in the OT, and with his overall personality. Generally, being impulsive, but specifically reacting strongly to future acts against what he holds dear. It's why he left Yoda's training early, and what makes him snap at Vader in RotJ. A reflexive reaction to a powerful and dire vision of pain and loss to come is in line with that, but the restraint and hesitation showed his growth since the OT.

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Maybe if it happened during the OT. But he conquered that character flaw. And had 20+ years to become a wiser man. He had the support of his friends and the Republic, he had the new Jedi Order and his Force Ghost pals. Even if he sensed unfathomable darkness - which we are not privy to - it would not go the way you think.

He also wouldn't - basing on his character from the OT - just pack up and leave. Especailly if he thought it was his fault. He'd attempt to turn Kylo and/or kill Snoke. Bah, he'd talk to Leia and Han about it and they'd try to do something about it, it was their child after all (and Luke did visit Leia, because he left his R2 with her).

 

[Alice]

Maybe if it happened during the OT. But he conquered that character flaw. And had 20+ years to become a wiser man. He had the support of his friends and the Republic, he had the new Jedi Order and his Force Ghost pals. Even if he sensed unfathomable darkness - which we are not privy to - it would not go the way you think.

He also wouldn't - basing on his character from the OT - just pack up and leave. Especailly if he thought it was his fault. He'd attempt to turn Kylo and/or kill Snoke. Bah, he'd talk to Leia and Han about it and they'd try to do something about it, it was their child after all (and Luke did visit Leia, because he left his R2 with her).

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That's not how character flaws work in reality. Not even remotely close.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I still argue there is nothing in Luke's character that suggests he was going to be a great teacher, or even a good one...

 

[Alice]

I still argue there is nothing in Luke's character that suggests he was going to be a great teacher, or even a good one...

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Exactly, Luke was impulsive, impatient to a fault, and not at all cool headed, not even in Jedi. He's one of the worst people to teach kids anything this side of Han Solo.

 

[modoversus]

He was also intentionally trying to gross Rey out, so that was pretty funny.

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I still smile about the milk scene. Hamill is sooo good at comedy.

Oh also, finally, there is a gif of that!

 

[excelsiorlef]

Shoot TLJ Luke once I got used to him is my fav Luke.


Probably doesn't hurt that Hamil is an infinitely better actor now than he was back then.

 

[ultracal31]

I still argue there is nothing in Luke's character that suggests he was going to be a great teacher, or even a good one...

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You mentioned that earlier and it's still a good point.

Though I see my friend yelling you with "but but but EU and fuck Disney and here's a video on why -links jar jar abram-"

 

[BFIB]

Maybe if it happened during the OT. But he conquered that character flaw. And had 20+ years to become a wiser man. He had the support of his friends and the Republic, he had the new Jedi Order and his Force Ghost pals. Even if he sensed unfathomable darkness - which we are not privy to - it would not go the way you think.

He also wouldn't - basing on his character from the OT - just pack up and leave. Especailly if he thought it was his fault. He'd attempt to turn Kylo and/or kill Snoke. Bah, he'd talk to Leia and Han about it and they'd try to do something about it, it was their child after all (and Luke did visit Leia, because he left his R2 with her).

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All we know is after Jedi, he said balance was there. He began to train a new generation of Jedi, but witnessed the darkness in his nephew rising. Darkness that once again, was there regardless of what the Jedi teachings had to show for it. In a fleeting moment, he remembered what his father became, what the Emperor was, and in that moment, realized the mistake he was about to make, and lived with all that guilt from that moment forward. He felt he wasn't strong enough for Ben, that the Jedi teachings in the end didn't matter, and that its arrogant to believe that the Force adheres to the Jedi Religion. He was falling right back into the trap of what led the Jedi to be wiped out in the first place.

 

[Deleted member 11039]

You've more than shown that you didn't understand it all over this thread. You've been amazingly dishonest about how and why he pulled out his saber and keep presenting it as "creepy" and "murderous". Obviously you didn't understand what he said and what was going through his mind.

Not to mention that you keep latching onto Kylo's telling, not Luke's. Dishonest? That's you and your hate-on for the film.




Exactly, some people confuse their fanfiction Luke with the canon Luke. Which isn't bad in itself, but when it goes on for 20+ pages, holy hell is it sad.

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You know these aren't real people right? Who cares about "canon" lol.

All of this is being made up in people's heads. Writing that Luke was so scared he instinctively pulled his saber on a sleeping boy when being confronted by visions of super mega darkness is as fan fic as it gets to me.

 

[Alice]

You mentioned that earlier and it's still a good point.

Though I see my friend yelling you with "but but but EU and fuck Disney and here's a video on why -links jar jar abram-"

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That's what it boils down to. 30 years of fanfiction.

You know these aren't real people right? Who cares about "canon" lol.

All of this is being made up in people's heads. Writing that Luke was so scared he instinctively pulled his saber on a sleeping boy when being confronted by visions of super mega darkness is as fan fic as it gets to me.

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I'm well aware they're not real. Are you? Writing a character in a realistic, concise fashion, even if it makes them flawed is way more important than your wish fulfillment.

You can have Gary-Stu Luke in the New Jedi Order books, they'll never stop existing. ;)

 

[Puffy]

Not a single human has given a flying fuck about audience score until this movie

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No one cared about the most effective method of gauging an audiences reception of a movie until this movie? Seems hard to believe that

 

[Danielsan]

Saw it last night. Not a Star Wars fan, but I enjoyed The Force Awakens. Not sure what I was expecting, but it certainly wasn't great. I came in for the Rey, Kylo/Ben and Luke storyline, and got a whole bunch of Rebel nonsense I did not care one bit about. Add to that a whole lot of hammy scenes and dialogue. I also just wish Star Wars would unshackle itself more from the style of the original movies. The dated scrolling text at the start, the awkward scene transitions the ridiculous and non-functional looking helmets and empire army outfits. In that sense I agree with Ben. Just let the past die already.

 

[Deleted member 11039]

I still argue there is nothing in Luke's character that suggests he was going to be a great teacher, or even a good one...

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I don't think I've seen anyone claim otherwise. Why do you keep going back to this.

 

[Veelk]

Maybe if it happened during the OT. But he conquered that character flaw. And had 20+ years to become a wiser man. He had the support of his friends and the Republic, he had the new Jedi Order and his Force Ghost pals. Even if he sensed unfathomable darkness - which we are not privy to - it would not go the way you think.

He also wouldn't - basing on his character from the OT - just pack up and leave. Especailly if he thought it was his fault. He'd attempt to turn Kylo and/or kill Snoke. Bah, he'd talk to Leia and Han about it and they'd try to do something about it, it was their child after all (and Luke did visit Leia, because he left his R2 with her).

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None of this is really how people actually act in real life, or atleast they're not predestined to act like this. Most people I know don't "conquer" a character flaw with one act of defiance of it in their life and then it's gone forever. That's not how people work. And character growth isn't a progressive linear improvement.

To think is that Luke is just this rising star that would keep rising indefinitely would be basically playing into this unrealistic view that he's just the legend that makes him greater than he actually is when he is just a man.

 

[BetterOffEd]

I think Luke's moment of weakness works because it's consistent with how he behaved in the OT, and with his overall personality. Generally, being impulsive, but specifically reacting strongly to future acts against what he holds dear. It's why he left Yoda's training early, and what makes him snap at Vader in RotJ. A reflexive reaction to a powerful and dire vision of pain and loss to come is in line with that, but the restraint and hesitation showed his growth since the OT. I think it's critical that a vision of destruction to come is what does it; it's basically a callback to how he responded in the OT.

Same, my second viewing really bumped it up. And third, and fourth...

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I'm not sure it's that easy to call it consistent. Luke's impulsiveness was something he's shown to have overcome by Return of the Jedi. The only time he reverts to impulsiveness is in defense of Leia in ROTJ (and it's his friends' safety that causes him to be impulsive in Empire as well). Luke's moment of weakness already looks bad due to the implication of a teacher murdering his student, but looks even worse when compared to the OT and realizing this kid is Leia and Han's son, the two characters Luke impulsively defends. In the OT, this characterization of Luke is what moves him towards turning Vader. He is about friends and family above all else. The Emperor even chides him for it. That's a character trait he is never shown to outgrow, as it's framed as a strength

Not saying you can't see it as you have. It's possible to interpret the character multiple ways. Just pointing out why others may be disappointed

 

[Surfinn]

I still argue there is nothing in Luke's character that suggests he was going to be a great teacher, or even a good one...

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I think he would have been good, under normal circumstances. His instincts served him pretty well in the OT, even if he made mistakes. The problem is that he wasn't ready to deal with someone who was seriously considering joining the dark side. Something Luke can never understand. He was tempted by anger and aggression.. But he ultimately rejected the temptation every time, once he realized how deep in he was, and what it meant (ie cornered by Vader in ESB, swinging wildly at Vader in ROTJ).

Kylo was a different beast entirely

 

[Joeytj]

The audience score on RT would suggest otherwise...

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Dude, you're like, three OT threads late to this debate.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

Can we go back to Episode III and acknowledge how Obi-an did the ultimate stupid Final Girl move in a slasher film by walking away and assuming the great killer was dead instead of doing the right thing and freeing Vader's head from his body.

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Honestly don't mind that part of it. Obi didn't have it in him to execute Anakin helpless and on the floor.

 

[Deleted member 11039]

That's what it boils down to. 30 years of fanfiction.




I'm well aware they're not real. Are you? Writing a character in a realistic, concise fashion, even if it makes them flawed is way more important than your wish fulfillment.

You can have Gary-Stu Luke in the New Jedi Order books, they'll never stop existing. ;)

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Lol, there's nothing "realistic" about sneaking into you nephews room, using magic to read his mind, seeing darkness and freaking out and popping your laser sword.

Try harder

 

[excelsiorlef]

No one cared about the most effective method of gauging an audiences reception of a movie until this movie? Seems hard to believe that

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Rotten Tomatoes fan score yeah

Check IMDB out

And you can see the big thing is:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2488496/ratings?ref_=tt_ov_rt
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2527336/ratings?ref_=tt_ov_rt

Both TFA and TLJ have the same median fan rating but a bunch of people freaked out and rated TLJ a 1*

But overall there's nothing to suggest that hating it is in any way a mahority or close to a consensus opinion.

 

[Veelk]

I think he would have been very good. The problem is that he wasn't ready to deal with someone who was seriously considering joining the dark side. Something Luke can never understand. He was tempted by anger and aggression.. But he ultimately rejected the temptation every time, once he realized how deep in he was, and what it meant (ie cornered by Vader in ESB, swinging wildly at Vader in ROTJ).

Kylo was a different beast entirely

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It's hard to tell. With Rey, his methodology is questionable. For her first exercise, he chastises her for 'not even trying to resist' the dark hole, which he didn't warn her about or tell how to resist or what she should do differently in other times. He's just freaked out and leaves. Then in the second lesson, he plans a lecture on the Jedi order, but Rey actually debates him and points out all the good that the Jedi, including Luke, accomplished. Then they have the falling out fight.

He's not a great teacher, but he's basically an old man who wants this damn kid to just get off his lawn, so hard to say.

 

[Moff]

Maybe if it happened during the OT. But he conquered that character flaw. And had 20+ years to become a wiser man. He had the support of his friends and the Republic, he had the new Jedi Order and his Force Ghost pals. Even if he sensed unfathomable darkness - which we are not privy to - it would not go the way you think.

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amazing, every word in that sentence is wrong

everything is speculation except the one thing you say we were not privy to, which was mentioned in TLJ

 

[Surfinn]

It's hard to tell. With Rey, his methodology is questionable. For her first exercise, he chastises her for 'not even trying to resist' the dark hole, which he didn't warn her about or tell how to resist or what she should do differently in other times. He's just freaked out and leaves. Then in the second lesson, he plans a lecture on the Jedi order, but Rey actually debates him and points out all the good that the Jedi, including Luke, accomplished. Then they have the falling out fight.

He's not a great teacher, but he's basically an old man who wants this damn kid to just get off his lawn, so hard to say.

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I meant pre Ben

He's a pretty horrid teacher with Rey in TLJ

 

[excelsiorlef]

Honestly don't mind that part of it. Obi didn't have it in him to execute Anakin helpless and on the floor.

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And then oops Vader happened as a result.

When you've made the decision you gotta follow through... remove the head... Shaun of the Dead

 

[rokninja]

Canto Bight really is surprisingly short on the second viewing.

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Felt shorter to me as well.

 

[FaultyFork]

I think Luke's moment of weakness works because it's consistent with how he behaved in the OT, and with his overall personality. Generally, being impulsive, but specifically reacting strongly to future acts against what he holds dear. It's why he left Yoda's training early, and what makes him snap at Vader in RotJ. A reflexive reaction to a powerful and dire vision of pain and loss to come is in line with that, but the restraint and hesitation showed his growth since the OT. I think it's critical that a vision of destruction to come is what does it; it's basically a callback to how he responded in the OT.

Same, my second viewing really bumped it up. And third, and fourth...

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I'd say that coming close to killing the child of your loved sister because of a vision you had is a bit more than just being impulsive, it's in the territory of unimaginable. Leia and Hans lives would be ruined and Luke would be hated by everyone that meant something to him, so I don't get how it would be an action to save the things he holds dear.

In the original trilogy he was in a fierce fight against a person that had actually been doing horrible things for years and was responsible for countless deaths. It's a lot different.

 

[Joeytj]

Maybe if it happened during the OT. But he conquered that character flaw. And had 20+ years to become a wiser man. He had the support of his friends and the Republic, he had the new Jedi Order and his Force Ghost pals. Even if he sensed unfathomable darkness - which we are not privy to - it would not go the way you think.

He also wouldn't - basing on his character from the OT - just pack up and leave. Especailly if he thought it was his fault. He'd attempt to turn Kylo and/or kill Snoke. Bah, he'd talk to Leia and Han about it and they'd try to do something about it, it was their child after all (and Luke did visit Leia, because he left his R2 with her).

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But that's the main debate of the movie, isn't it? Everybody just assumed Luke (or any 20 something) just gets wiser and wiser or never has another flaw. Not only is that not really true, but as Mark Hamill said so a couple of years before the sequels were even considered, it wouldn't make for much of a story or interesting character.

Luke showed a brief moment a weakness and the dark side (Ben, Snoke) took immediate advantage of that. And just like almost half the fandom, let himself get crushed by unreal expectations about what he was supposed to be and do.

 

[Alice]

Lol, there's nothing "realistic" about sneaking into you nephews room, using magic to read his mind, seeing darkness and freaking out and popping your laser sword.

Try harder

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It's not my fault you're fetishizing a single moment. Your hyperbole about what happened is dishonest at best, since you understood the scene so perfectly, you're just actively trolling.

Good job, I guess? Got a few responses out of me.

 

[Veelk]

I meant pre Ben

He's a pretty horrid teacher with Rey in TLJ

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Oh. Well, we don't have any insight into that. Hard to call that one.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I meant pre Ben

He's a pretty horrid teacher with Rey in TLJ

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Nah dude is a natural prodigy ... natural prodigies often don't make good teachers... It's really hard to teach what just comes natural to you... Rey would also probably be a terrible teacher (though her background of survival pre force powers might make up for it

 

[Surfinn]

Oh. Well, we don't have any insight into that. Hard to call that one.

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He's a biased asshole with Rey in TLJ. He doesn't even wanna teach her

Nah dude is a natural... natural often don't make good teachers... It's really hard to teach what just comes natural to you... Rey would also probably be a terrible teacher (though her background of survival pre force powers might make up for it

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There are plenty of teachers who are super good at what they do and are naturals in their craft. And there are also shit teachers who are naturals. I don't think that has any bearing on quality. I work closely with teachers for a living

 

[Mockerre]

All we know is after Jedi, he said balance was there. He began to train a new generation of Jedi, but witnessed the darkness in his nephew rising. Darkness that once again, was there regardless of what the Jedi teachings had to show for it. In a fleeting moment, he remembered what his father became, what the Emperor was, and in that moment, realized the mistake he was about to make, and lived with all that guilt from that moment forward. He felt he wasn't strong enough for Ben, that the Jedi teachings in the end didn't matter, and that its arrogant to believe that the Force adheres to the Jedi Religion. He was falling right back into the trap of what led the Jedi to be wiped out in the first place.

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The only thing we are TOLD in the movie is that he felt the darkness and acted upon it. This is unconvincing storytelling that's contradictory how the character was SHOWN to behave. I know I'm repeating myself, but it's all there is to it. If you take an established character, you must make the effort to either stick to the characterization or be convincing in showing change. Good storytelling vs. bad storytelling.

None of this is really how people actually act in real life, or atleast they're not predestined to act like this. Most people I know don't "conquer" a character flaw with one act of defiance of it in their life and then it's gone forever. That's not how people work. And character growth isn't a progressive linear improvement.

To think is that Luke is just this rising star that would keep rising indefinitely would be basically playing into this unrealistic view that he's just the legend that makes him greater than he actually is when he is just a man.

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There's two things to this. On one hand, I don't know if putting a real world nihilistic outlook on life into a mythology-style space adventure is the right move (for this is what it boils down to, not only for Luke, but also Han and Leia, all their hopes and dreams and deeds turned to dust).

Having said that, the end of ROTJ put Luke precisely on that trajectory. If the filmmakers wanted to change it, they should have made a more concerted effort (see above and my earlier posts).

 

[The Silver]

Still waiting for the comic book about Snokey possessed 15 year old Ben going around indoctrinating other students into going along with a school massacre without Luke noticing.

 

[LionPride]

No one cared about the most effective method of gauging an audiences reception of a movie until this movie? Seems hard to believe that

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Where have you seen people use it to guage audience's feelings towards the movie? Anyways, this is a week old debate, so I'm outtie

 

[Deleted member 13131]

Maybe if it happened during the OT. But he conquered that character flaw. And had 20+ years to become a wiser man. He had the support of his friends and the Republic, he had the new Jedi Order and his Force Ghost pals. Even if he sensed unfathomable darkness - which we are not privy to - it would not go the way you think.

He also wouldn't - basing on his character from the OT - just pack up and leave. Especailly if he thought it was his fault. He'd attempt to turn Kylo and/or kill Snoke. Bah, he'd talk to Leia and Han about it and they'd try to do something about it, it was their child after all (and Luke did visit Leia, because he left his R2 with her).

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I don't think he conquered that character flaw, or rather we never see it. Vader taunts Luke about Leia, and he snaps instantly. Flash forward some years, Luke is now a galactic legend, training new Jedi. And one person stands to destroy it all, which Luke sees vividly in that moment with Ben. A moment of weakness is entirely reasonable, in that situation and with his character.

After, Luke has now 1) followed the Jedi pattern of failure, 2) lost Han and Leia's son to the dark side, 3) let many other students die, 4) had his temple destroyed, and 5) had his own mythical legend shattered. Falling from that height is going to hurt.

I think it's important to distinguish between Luke giving up on himself, and Luke deciding the Jedi order needs to end. He now sees the entire history of the Jedi as one of failure, and sees his role in that failure; in light of what that's cost the galaxy, he feels a responsibility to end it. He's shattered, but he doesn't tell Rey he deserves to die for his failings; the Jedi order does.

It's Rey and Yoda that help him get perspective on the role of failure in teaching the next generation. I also want to mention Mark Hamill's performance in this; for me, he sells the shit out of this story. I really feel his grief and regret during the second lesson to Rey, and understand his motivations. Mark really killed it, and that's a big part of why I think the story works.

 

[--R]

If Crystal Star didn't killed Luke and people lived through it, how can TLJ assassinate his character? It's absurd to just think Luke can't be scared or make a mistake just because he didn't on the OT.

 

[Veelk]

There's two things to this. On one hand, I don't know if putting a real world nihilistic outlook on life into a mythology-style space adventure is the right move (for this is what it boils down to, not only for Luke, but also Han and Leia, all their hopes and dreams and deeds turned to dust).

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That is far from nihilism. Things still mean things, both within the narrative and to the characters. I spoke and length before about how while Luke may be in the throes of depression, Rey's character arc is about her deciding to believe and carry on those legends, despite all the disappointments thrown in her face over the course of the movie.

Having said that, the end of ROTJ put Luke precisely on that trajectory. If the filmmakers wanted to change it, they should have made a more concerted effort (see above and my earlier posts).

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Again, not really how good storytelling works, or atleast has to work, basically for the same reasons mentioned above.

If Luke Skywalker was basically put on pause for 30 years in terms of character development only to pick up at the time of TLJ, that would be horrendous and unnatural character writing.

And really, you keep bandying on about how RotJ left things off under the implication that he just somehow 'took care of that' integral part of his personality. I don't see that. What happened was that he went to Darth Vader determined to approach him non-aggressively because he believed in turning his father to the light. He saw that through in the end, but he stumbled along the way. But where in the world does it imply that Luke learned to never stumble or make mistakes in regards to that? Where is it said he learned to simply never get angry or let his anger control him?

It's established that he doesn't let his anger control him long term. That's all.

 

[Deleted member 11039]

It's not my fault you're fetishizing a single moment. Your hyperbole about what happened is dishonest at best, since you understood the scene so perfectly, you're just actively trolling.

Good job, I guess? Got a few responses out of me.

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Uh it's a pretty big moment. It's repeated (from other viewpoints) in the film. It has a major impact on Ben/Kylo (and Luke) which in turn has a major impact on the universe we see. It's not something easily brushed aside as "oh well, we're all human."

And let me break something else down for you. My argument isn't...

- a lack of understanding
- a longing for wish fulfillment
- trolling
or whatever other reductionist nonsense you try to come up with

It's problems I have with this (imperfect) film.

Be a big boy and discuss or move along.

 

[BetterOffEd]

I think it's important to distinguish between Luke giving up on himself, and Luke deciding the Jedi order needs to end. He now sees the entire history of the Jedi as one of failure, and sees his role in that failure; in light of what that's cost the galaxy, he feels a responsibility to end it.

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but if we are to see this as Luke wanting the Jedi order to end, rather than Luke giving up, wouldn't it make more sense if Luke ended the Jedi order by tracking down and ending the dangerous loose threads his attempt to bring the Jedi back created before retiring? "Ending it" implies setting the galaxy right before calling a quits. As it stands, it looks like he's just letting the dark side win, another reason some may be unhappy with his portrayal in this film

I think it's plenty fair to interpret the Luke in TLJ as a man who gave up, given the fact Kylo is running around using the force to destroy everything he worked hard to build

 

[Joeytj]

He's a biased asshole with Rey in TLJ. He doesn't even wanna teach her

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It's basically the same with Yoda, honestly. Yoda never really believes Luke is the right choice, partially because he doesn't think Luke is the only hope or choice, he says so to Obi-Wan in Empire.

By ROTJ, Yoda has basically just given up and tells Luke that it's up to him to save the Galaxy and good luck with the Emperor. Oh, and "there's another Skywalker, see ya".

Obi-Wan is actually last person to teach Luke something, by telling Luke Leia's his sister and there's no point in trying to save his father.

Luke, in the end proves both Yoda and Obi-Wan wrong and right at the same time. Luke pulls back from the dark side and sacrifices himself to inspire good in Vader, much like Obi-Wan did in ANH when his sacrifice inspired Luke into action too. But both Obi-Wan and Yoda at the same time, forgot that lesson, only to be given hope by Luke.

His last lesson to Luke is to learn from failure and accept that a master is only good if their apprentice "grows beyond" them.

 

[Alice]

Be a big boy and discuss or move along.

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There's nothing to discuss with you because you keep harping on the very same irrational argument and keep going in circles for pages with everyone who bothers to engage you.

You just wanna chant "not my Luke!" all day, and that's kinda sad.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Time to go see it for the 3rd time! :D

 

[SurrenderDorothy]

Canto Bight really is surprisingly short on the second viewing.

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It was short on my first viewing, surprised after hearing how much time it took from people's impressions. Felt like 15 minutes, was probably 20 or something.

 

[Deleted member 11039]

There's nothing to discuss with you because you keep harping on the very same irrational argument and keep going in circles for pages with everyone who bothers to engage you.

You just wanna chant "not my Luke!" all day, and that's kinda sad.

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Ah the old Trump technique. Strong

 

[SuperBonk]

I'm kinda torn. I feel like I would enjoy it more with a second viewing but the film is just so long and exhausting. In fact, I think my biggest problem with the film is that it just isn't as "fun" as what I'm used to out of Star Wars. For better or for worse.