his moves were sick
he portrays teh bad ass jedi he is and was, dont know what youre talking about
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Star Wars: How Luke's final act made the Skywalker Saga's Buddhist themes more explicit
- Thread starter DiipuSurotu
- Start date
he portrays teh bad ass jedi he is and was, dont know what youre talking about
I would somewhat agree that Luke's portrayal was disappointing, especially if you've been waiting for 30+ years to see the character again. From a storytelling standpoint, they chose to show him at his worst, so he could have an arc that ends on a high note. He's not the Jedi master that we were expecting to see, although we do get that portrayal at the very end where we see that at least his avatar practices good hygiene.I have to disagree. Personally, if you take TLJ, by itself, out of the context of all the movies, I think it's a terrific movie. But It's just not what I wanted to see out of Luke's character... a bitter old man, scared, hidden on an island.
The man we saw at the END of Return of jedi is not the same Man we saw in TLJ. With that said, I applaud Rian Johnson, he is an awesome film maker.
I disagree with the notion that the Luke we saw at the end of TLJ was different than the Luke in your gif. They are the same guy. The Luke that we see tossing his lightsaber at the end of ROTJ (and tossing it at the beginning of TLJ--it's like poetry, it rhymes) is in that moment rejecting the expectations of both the Jedi and the Sith. The Jedi have been manipulating him to destroy Vader and Palpatine, while Palpatine and Vader had been manipulating him to join one of them and destroy the other. Luke explicitly rejects both by realizing that the only winning move is not to play. His love and compassion are what ultimately win the day, and he's willing to sacrifice himself if it'll help his friends. While Yoda and Obi-Wan talked a good game in the first two movies, Luke actually practices it in the third and gives new hope to the galaxy.
He becomes the greatest Jedi in that moment. The original Jedi failed because they played Palpatine's game and allowed themselves to be manipulated into serving the Sith, and then destroyed by the very armies that they led (which they never should've led in the first place). You could argue that Luke's greatest mistake was establishing a Jedi academy and training people to be the very idiots whom he surpassed. Right out the gate he produces another Darth Vader. Luke being Luke and wanting to protect people, he goes off into exile, cuts himself off from the Force, and vows to never unleash another terror on the galaxy.
They pick-up the story with rock bottom Luke, which is interesting storytelling, but disappointing from a longtime fan perspective. We see a man who's lost his faith, lost his hope, and lost his confidence in everything he thought he believed in. He's convinced himself the only way to really break the cycle is by killing the Jedi. And he's right, but for the wrong reasons. The Jedi as seen in the prequels and who tried to manipulate Luke have no business returning to the galaxy ever again, but Luke's Way does. The biggest mistake Luke made was trying to follow the Jedi path rather than forging his own. He never should've picked-up that lightsaber that he tossed on the Death Star. He never should've trained a new generation in the image of those who wielded that weapon.
At the end of TLJ, he reconnects to the Force and goes his own way just like he did in ROTJ. He doesn't come back to fight the First Order. He doesn't destroy Kylo Ren. He doesn't do whirly-twirly lightsaber bullshit to please pubescent edgelords or cackling Sith lords. He doesn't even attack once during his confrontation. He dodges all of Kylo's attacks. More importantly, he's delaying the advance of the First Order and giving his friends the opportunity to escape, because his ally is the Force and he trusts in it, and he has faith in his friends that they'll escape. You'll remember that Palpatine once told him that it was his greatest weakness, while we know it's his greatest strength--he'd only just forgotten it during his self-imposed exile.
And he does all of this via a mastery of the Force that we've never seen any Jedi perform. He literally stopped the First Order in its tracks, confronted Kylo Ren, and allowed his friends to escape by literally using the Force for knowledge and defense and not attacking. The man is the living embodiment of the Jedi ideal. And he goes out on his terms, in his own way, defying everyone's expectations while giving the galaxy a new hope.
So while I can understand where a lot of people are coming from in their criticism of Luke's character, and I share their disappointment that we didn't get to see cool, confident Luke at the height of his powers through most of the movie, I don't share the criticism that Luke at the end of TLJ is different from the Luke at the end of ROTJ. He's the same man, willing to sacrifice himself to save his friends, but with a hard-earned wisdom and mastery of the Force that his younger self on that Death Star couldn't have comprehended.
LOL no it didn't. It was goofy as shit.
And you are also missing the whole point of Yoda from ESB if you want him to be a 'badass.' Literal quote: Luke: "I am searching for a great warrior." Yoda: "Wars not make one great."
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It wasn't a scratch on the theater screen. There really is a black spot on the sun in that shot.
I don't know if it's just a sun spot that they left in for some reason or if it's supposed to mislead us or whatever (or if it's really a ship?). I wondered what it was when I watched the film too, but it didn't took me out of it.
It wasn't a scratch on the theater screen. There really is a black spot on the sun in that shot.
I don't know if it's just a sun spot that they left in for some reason or if it's supposed to mislead us or whatever (or if it's really a ship?). I wondered what it was when I watched the film too, but it didn't took me out of it.
I assume either a sunspot or a transiting planet.
Absolutely. The burning tree and "THE SACRED TEXTS!" was very much in line with the idea that the Force isn't something you can put in a box, or on a page, and that if you ascribe so much value to traditions and dogma you are absolutely missing the point of this thing you think you revere.
Luke fucking with everyone from the other side of the galaxy and then becoming one with the Force was in keeping with the wily nature of Obi-Wan and Yoda, altering the course of events in a way people weren't expecting and that was completely necessary to finish passing the torch to Rey and save the galaxy.
Luke fucking with everyone from the other side of the galaxy and then becoming one with the Force was in keeping with the wily nature of Obi-Wan and Yoda, altering the course of events in a way people weren't expecting and that was completely necessary to finish passing the torch to Rey and save the galaxy.
dude it was sick! stop being such a downer. yoda fighting like a boss with a light saber doesnt take away from his portrayal of being wise or a mentor to luke. it just shows how competent he was in battle, something most people never expected and it was totally awesome. and he did it all with style and finesse, nothing wrong with that
I really enjoyed Luke's ending. I feel like some people wanted to turn him into a video game Yoda character or something dumb.
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We really need a vote-for-post function on Era.
Yeah what a letdown from the guy whose most significant decision in the fight with Vader was throwing aside his weapons, after being trained by a little dude who instantly shut down the notion of being a "great warrior."
Exactly, Luke supposed failure with Kylo was enough for him to relinquish all that helped him topple the empire and redeem his father and save the galaxy? It's a character assassination by Rian that is in direct opposition to who Luke is. So bad was it that it literally proves Han dismissal of the Jedi, "It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense". He didn't give up with Vader who murdered millions, but does with Kylo that he thought killed a dozen, simply awful treatment of Luke's legacy.I have to disagree. Personally, if you take TLJ, by itself, out of the context of all the movies, I think it's a terrific movie. But It's just not what I wanted to see out of Luke's character... a bitter old man, scared, hidden on an island.
The man we saw at the END of Return of jedi is not the same Man we saw in TLJ. With that said, I applaud Rian Johnson, he is an awesome film maker.
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Rian? You mean JJ. That whole backstory comes directly from Han's speech in TFA.
Thought it was great. I was shocked that they would remove such a chess piece from the board, especially with Carrie Fischer's passing, and I loved that he was able to teach one last lesson to Ben as well.
Seems nearly the entire thread ignored the premise of the thread in order to do another TLJ bitch fest.
Fortunately, Rian Johnson does not share your preference for one note characters.
I kind of hate it.
The beauty of the end of RotJ is the emperor is the one making this grand use of the force and he is undone by a greater power. Love.
Luke throws his saber away showing that evil has failed to win his soul. His actions and faith save his father. And Vader grabs the Emperor with his bare hands and throws him in a hole. It's truly incredible.
Contrast that with TLJ and we see Luke Skywalker using a grand, over the top, anime-ish use of the force to troll the very person he helped push to the darkside. Esh. Not good. Never once are we led to believe Luke tried to save Kylo. Not the character we grew to love from the original films.
Obviously the main thing we're supposed to take away is that through a peaceful action Luke saves the resistance and inspired the rest of the galaxy to join the fight. And also that Luke's actions make him not the right person to lead Kylo to redemption or if it's possible for Kylo at all.
Its an interesting idea but in execution it comes off like all he achieves is buying time for a now decimated resistance to escape and clean up the mess he made.
The beauty of the end of RotJ is the emperor is the one making this grand use of the force and he is undone by a greater power. Love.
Luke throws his saber away showing that evil has failed to win his soul. His actions and faith save his father. And Vader grabs the Emperor with his bare hands and throws him in a hole. It's truly incredible.
Contrast that with TLJ and we see Luke Skywalker using a grand, over the top, anime-ish use of the force to troll the very person he helped push to the darkside. Esh. Not good. Never once are we led to believe Luke tried to save Kylo. Not the character we grew to love from the original films.
Obviously the main thing we're supposed to take away is that through a peaceful action Luke saves the resistance and inspired the rest of the galaxy to join the fight. And also that Luke's actions make him not the right person to lead Kylo to redemption or if it's possible for Kylo at all.
Its an interesting idea but in execution it comes off like all he achieves is buying time for a now decimated resistance to escape and clean up the mess he made.
It wasn't a scratch on the theater screen. There really is a black spot on the sun in that shot.
I don't know if it's just a sun spot that they left in for some reason or if it's supposed to mislead us or whatever (or if it's really a ship?). I wondered what it was when I watched the film too, but it didn't took me out of it.
Who are you superhuman people who can instantly spot such a tiny little thing while (supposedly) being immersed in a story?
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Huh? In a big theater the black spot was much more noticeable. I didn't watch it in 3D or anything by the way.
Exactly. The ST completely scraped all that made RotJ's ending great. Luke having lost his nephew/sister's child do the dark side should have been a pretty big deal to him emotionally, and something he would want to undo. Instead he trolls him and dies.
But I blame TFA too. You can't have all the main cast having to save the galaxy again, it was always going to undo what they had done in the OT. They had to have won peace for a least a century or so for the galaxy, and then a new threat emerges or something, for other characters. This ST started off on the wrong path.
Well, you can't really blame them since the prequels pretty much made that a thing.
Some people on this forum would genuiinely argue that one of the most badass things Luke's ever done was slicing off Vader's hand, and not the part where he came to his senses and threw the lightsaber away and resigned himself to death over falling to the darkside. SW was always anti "just show up and kill everything with the laser sword like a badass" and the best showcases of the force in Disney lineup are all examples of what the force was supposed to represent in the first place.
What I would put on JJ is the way he left Luke off-screen for almost the entirety of TFA. And then, when we finally do see him, there isn't even a real scene there. It's just a dumb cliffhanger.
You can't have Luke's scene only be an intro of him and nothing else. I never liked that TLJ had to start right where the previous movie left off, butI understand why Rian did that given the utter turd sandwich of a finale that TFA left him with.
On topic: what EatChildren said is spot-on. Loved that moment.
Yeah but that was just him being too much badass. - someone probably will say.
I thought it was a beautiful send off for the character.
I loved his arc in The Last Jedi, and really enjoyed seeing him regain his faith and confidence and school Ben one last time.
It seems a lot of fans were expecting some Starkiller level shit, which would have been ridiculous in my opinion. His portrayal at the the end of TLJ was so perfectly zen and embodying of the Jedi ethos that I can't imagine his confrontation with Ben being handled in a way that wasn't a disservice to his character.
Luke was always going to be a "problem" with this new trilogy. The sequel trilogy isn't about Luke, Han, or Leia, and never was going to be. Maybe if Lucas had done the trilogy in the mid to late 80's, but even Lucas' original concept for the sequel trilogy was to be a passing of the torch and have Luke be a secluded hermit after his Jedi Order was wiped out by one of his pupils.
You bring him back too soon in The Force Awakens, and he takes over the story. It's no longer about Rey, Finn, and Poe. Especially if he shows up swinging a lightsaber and force pulling Star Destroyers out of the sky like so many people wanted/expected. Bringing him into TFA after our new protagonists have found their footing and established themselves as heroes in the first film is smart storytelling. They didn't have Luke or Han to swoop in and save the day, and had to succeed by their own merits. Him showing up at the end was the best place to put him and not take away from the journey of who this trilogy is really about.
Pushing him to the second film still doesn't solve the Luke Skywalker problem, though. He's no longer missing, so he has to be in the film, but how do you do it without sidelining and overshadowing the protagonists? How do you address the expectation that when Luke comes back he won't just solve all of the problems the protagonists face? More smart storytelling by actually addressing that conflict in the film itself. The fans expect Luke to be a magic wand, but the characters in the film also think the same thing. Rey is the audience surrogate in the film. She expects ROTJ Luke. Instead, she gets Hobo Spider-Man. And much like the audience, she is disappointed, because it's not what she expected. Luke tells her as much on Ach-To.
Having a Luke that was "defeated," not by a powerful Sith Lord, but by his own guilt and disappointment in his failure to reignite the Jedi Order (again, Lucas' own concept for Luke in his Episode 7), is a smart way to sideline him for a whole film, give him his own meaty character arc to undergo, let the new protagonists once again stand on their own two feet and learn their own lessons, and still manage to have him be heroically triumphant in the finale of the film. All without overshadowing our leads and "stealing" the movie from them.
It was honestly a very smart and well executed solution to the Luke Skywalker problem. The fact that Johnson managed to do that and still give him a fantastic sendoff is a testament to his skill as a storyteller and tying themes into narrative and characterization.
The Last Jedi is a far from perfect film, but I think his handling of Luke/Rey/Kylo was pretty damn great.
I wonder how those that dislike Luke's portrayal in the film would have handled it without making the movie solely another Luke Skywalker adventure. What would Rey, Finn, and Poe have done in the movie if Luke was there to just kick ass and chew bubblegum, and he's all out of bubblegum?
Balancing characters and plotlines and themes is hard for a writer to do. Rian didn't succeed completely in TLJ, but he did where it counted, and still at least gave Finn and Poe some character arcs and growth as well, even if it wasn't as strong as Rey, Luke, and Ben's arcs.
I loved his arc in The Last Jedi, and really enjoyed seeing him regain his faith and confidence and school Ben one last time.
It seems a lot of fans were expecting some Starkiller level shit, which would have been ridiculous in my opinion. His portrayal at the the end of TLJ was so perfectly zen and embodying of the Jedi ethos that I can't imagine his confrontation with Ben being handled in a way that wasn't a disservice to his character.
Luke was always going to be a "problem" with this new trilogy. The sequel trilogy isn't about Luke, Han, or Leia, and never was going to be. Maybe if Lucas had done the trilogy in the mid to late 80's, but even Lucas' original concept for the sequel trilogy was to be a passing of the torch and have Luke be a secluded hermit after his Jedi Order was wiped out by one of his pupils.
You bring him back too soon in The Force Awakens, and he takes over the story. It's no longer about Rey, Finn, and Poe. Especially if he shows up swinging a lightsaber and force pulling Star Destroyers out of the sky like so many people wanted/expected. Bringing him into TFA after our new protagonists have found their footing and established themselves as heroes in the first film is smart storytelling. They didn't have Luke or Han to swoop in and save the day, and had to succeed by their own merits. Him showing up at the end was the best place to put him and not take away from the journey of who this trilogy is really about.
Pushing him to the second film still doesn't solve the Luke Skywalker problem, though. He's no longer missing, so he has to be in the film, but how do you do it without sidelining and overshadowing the protagonists? How do you address the expectation that when Luke comes back he won't just solve all of the problems the protagonists face? More smart storytelling by actually addressing that conflict in the film itself. The fans expect Luke to be a magic wand, but the characters in the film also think the same thing. Rey is the audience surrogate in the film. She expects ROTJ Luke. Instead, she gets Hobo Spider-Man. And much like the audience, she is disappointed, because it's not what she expected. Luke tells her as much on Ach-To.
Having a Luke that was "defeated," not by a powerful Sith Lord, but by his own guilt and disappointment in his failure to reignite the Jedi Order (again, Lucas' own concept for Luke in his Episode 7), is a smart way to sideline him for a whole film, give him his own meaty character arc to undergo, let the new protagonists once again stand on their own two feet and learn their own lessons, and still manage to have him be heroically triumphant in the finale of the film. All without overshadowing our leads and "stealing" the movie from them.
It was honestly a very smart and well executed solution to the Luke Skywalker problem. The fact that Johnson managed to do that and still give him a fantastic sendoff is a testament to his skill as a storyteller and tying themes into narrative and characterization.
The Last Jedi is a far from perfect film, but I think his handling of Luke/Rey/Kylo was pretty damn great.
I wonder how those that dislike Luke's portrayal in the film would have handled it without making the movie solely another Luke Skywalker adventure. What would Rey, Finn, and Poe have done in the movie if Luke was there to just kick ass and chew bubblegum, and he's all out of bubblegum?
Balancing characters and plotlines and themes is hard for a writer to do. Rian didn't succeed completely in TLJ, but he did where it counted, and still at least gave Finn and Poe some character arcs and growth as well, even if it wasn't as strong as Rey, Luke, and Ben's arcs.
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The article legitimately brought tears to my eyes and I feel like no one is even reading it.
When I think of where Luke started, so young and naive in front of those suns, and where he ended... I realize this is probably the best character arc in any adventure series.
I actually read it yesterday, and I think it's a beautiful article.
He was playing Kylo and appealing to everything that he knew would make Kylo angry.
It really highlights just how big of an L Kylo took because he didn't notice any of the giveaways. From Luke purposefully avoiding every strike and never making an attempt to parry, Luke not leaving any footprints, Luke somehow surviving something that would be impossible to survive even for a jedi master, Luke using Anakin's lightsaber instead of his green one. Like, Kylo got played.
All while denying Kylo the opportunity to kill that part his past.He was playing Kylo and appealing to everything that he knew would make Kylo angry.
It really highlights just how big of an L Kylo took because he didn't notice any of the giveaways. From Luke purposefully avoiding every strike and never making an attempt to parry, Luke not leaving any footprints, Luke somehow surviving something that would be impossible to survive even for a jedi master, Luke using Anakin's lightsaber instead of his green one. Like, Kylo got played.
In death Luke will be more powerful than Kylo can imagine.
He tried to warn him.
I love the slight difference in phrasing and how it relates to how each character feels about their enemy. Obi-wan knows that Vader doesn't care about him. Luke knows that Ben is full of regret but is in a "too late to stop now" state of mind.
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A preference for contrivance is more accurate, and a complete failure to do something inventive whilst remaining sympathetic to what's already well established.
I like how you don't see the difference between Luke not having anything that can be called first hand experience with what Vader did twenty years ago, like Obi-wan and Yoda:
and having first hand experience with Kylo burning down his temple and killing everyone.
Like, there's a reason Obi-wan and Yoda weren't pinning for redemption vs Luke who didn't even know the jedi were a thing. It's a pretty clear parallel minus the part where there's babies who Luke could count on to beat the baddies when they grow up.
100% agree. It's insanely powerful and effective at once. Brilliant stuff.
I love that Luke's two greatest triumphs in the series are the result of completely embracing the path of non-violence that Yoda was trying to teach him. Shit is amazing and very powerful to me.
I like how you don't see the difference between Luke not having anything that can be called first hand experience with what Vader did twenty years ago, like Obi-wan and Yoda:
and having first hand experience with Kylo burning down his temple and killing everyone.
Like, there's a reason Obi-wan and Yoda weren't pinning for redemption vs Luke who didn't even know the jedi were a thing. It's a pretty clear parallel minus the part where there's babies who Luke could count on to beat the baddies when they grow up.
Luke experiences Vader & co blow up an entire planet, murder his only family, kill his mentor. Yes he didn't experience the culling of Jedi first hand, but he felt equivalent pain and trauma of losing what he perceived as people that were fundamental to his existence.
The imagery was a bit clunky with the sunset and force-dice. "everything you said is wrong" line being used again kind of bugged me too.