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Shenmue III is timed exclusive to Epic Games Store, backers PC code redeemed on EGS & no refund (See Threadmark) [READ STAFF POSTS BEFORE POSTING]
- Thread starter vestan
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I think Those people would say that that was a small part their argument before EGS entered the market, and now that EGS has entered it, it is inconsequential.
I find it super interesting to see this debate play out though. Its not often that the general public gets to see what the issues are in regulating Markets. Was/is steam a monopoly? Depends on how you define it.
Lol y'all gotta stop with these bad faith, borderline shitposts
So, never promise Steam codes on Kickstarter again, just "PC" codes, and we could save a lot of heartache in the future.
Steam is one of those things where "market domination" is a better term than monopoly, and this isn't unheard of in the dotcom era. Amazon, for instance, has "market domination" even as it expands to larger and larger market-share. But the fact that both Steam and Amazon have such a grip on their markets isn't inherently negative for the consumer - right now, I'll hasten to add - because neither could be argued to be abusing their position to the detriment of consumers. Amazon leverages its size when it comes to the cut it takes on books, so could be seen as anti-business, but the cost-savings are passed onto the consumer. And Steam does a lot for both developers (though they could do more) and consumers.
It could be argued that both are, to an extent, "natural monopolies" , in that they both forged ahead in the early days of their respective markets, where
But when viewed against Epic, Valve/Steam pales in comparison to a great degree. If Epic wanted to, they could take the slow-and-steady approach, push for as much feature-parity against Steam as is possible, and be a major competitor. They have the money, they have the time (Fortnite may be slowing, but it's not a flash-in-the-pan). Ironically, Epic is behaving more like a monopoly than Valve/Steam, as anti-competitive moves - like exclusivity deals - are the tell-tale sign of a monopoly.
(hope this isn't too off-topic :) )
Yeah but now any kickstarter that has to be make megabucks has to advertise that they are in fact coming to Steam day one, cause EGS has become toxic for the PC gaming community.
So simple and yet members keep barging in to complicate things and then sacrifice themselves smh
And odds are, those projects won't meet their funding goals. You don't even need a majority of backers to stop pledging on these Kickstarters for them to fall through. Just enough so that they don't make their goal and the project is never realized.
there are no intellectually honest arguments to be made that are pro epic games store
so yes you're either ignorant or trolling in my opinion
yes sorry, I'm agreeing with him
the you isn't referring to him, it's to the people he's talking about
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I don't see how this can be taken any other way than scummy
Dev: Please give money to fund game
Person: I did it
Dev: OK we'll give you code on whatever you want
Person: Steam pls
Dev: OK
*Years Pass*
Dev: Sorry we're on another thing now
Person: No Steam codes?
Dev: Nope
Person: Well I don't want it, please refund me
Dev: Nope
Person: What the fuck
Dev: Please give money to fund game
Person: I did it
Dev: OK we'll give you code on whatever you want
Person: Steam pls
Dev: OK
*Years Pass*
Dev: Sorry we're on another thing now
Person: No Steam codes?
Dev: Nope
Person: Well I don't want it, please refund me
Dev: Nope
Person: What the fuck
A day later an this whole things still in shambles. Backing off full exclusivity is nice but having some people wait on this loooooooooooong awaited game another full year is garbage. Some people'd snidely say the game was gonna bomb long before any of this an in the end they may be right for completely unexpected an unwarranted circumstances! Good job Ys/Deep Silver, create a problem then "solve" the problem. This minor reversal nor any potential later ones should be giving 'em zero cred.
Yeah, in theory that is possible, but we also know from phoenix point, epic wanted exclusivity straight away. Not unlikely same to be case here or they could've started talks for additional games right after Metro Exodus.
Now bring in the different views on market power between European and US regulators, and you have a very complicated stew of issues.
Yeah, fair point about Phoenix Point. And, yeah, given the prior discussions Epic had with DS about Metro, it's more likely than not that this was known for some weeks, at least. Which makes the disastrous lack of information and response even worse. Like, how do you not have a couple of guys sit down together for days on end to make sure they have the bases covered and ways and means to finesse the outrage?
Hah, yeah. Fun times! (not)
Still hoping they'll honor steam keys for backers, at least if the right argument/explanation reaches the devs
Possibly a long shot, but so what
Possibly a long shot, but so what
lol i can't believe they asked for that first update to be included.
they know. they just need to decide if they care.
The thing that really blows my mind is that Epic could have gotten something like Destiny 2, something that would have been upsetting for many sure, but totally understandable in the end and something that has clear crossover appeal with the Fortnite generation. They decided to go with the game that no one outside of the fans dared consider funding for over 15 years. Once we are nearing the finish line suddenly Epic cares? Do they legitimately expect the average teen to jump at the chance at getting a sequel to a 20 year old game about asking old people mundane questions and applying for a job at the docks? (the answer is of course they do not)
I just pray Epic gave them enough to at least start up Shenmue IV now. If we never end up getting the next game Epic will be the one everyone ends up blaming. Shenmue fans never move on.
I just pray Epic gave them enough to at least start up Shenmue IV now. If we never end up getting the next game Epic will be the one everyone ends up blaming. Shenmue fans never move on.
It used to be a much more commonly used phrase, but it still applies today: A Kickstarter pledge is not a pre-order.
It's not some two-way contract that you can rescind if you don't like the way a project is going. It's a donation with a reward. What if you don't get your reward? Sorry, them's the breaks. Kickstarter has no liability, and is really in no position to force creators to refund you or make-good. By the time the bad news arrives, the creator has probably spent all the funding so they probably couldn't give you a refund even if there was a legal basis for you to stand on.
Generally speaking, I haven't backed anything unless:
A.) I wasn't sure if the project would meet its goals (Harmonix's Amplitude Kickstarter)
B.) I wanted an early backer discount (Shenmue 3)
C.) I wanted early access or beta access being given to backers
Those seem like pretty decent rules to live by.
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None of this changes the fact that experiences like this will make people less likely to crowdfund games in the future.
I honestly think that so much of what Epic does with regards to the store can be boiled down to "Fuck Steam". And as long as publishers get cash and still see a Steam release for their game in 6 months or a year, they'll continue to be used by Epic in such a way.
Thats the thing with Kickstarter. You can't view it as a buyer/seller relationship in which an order was placed.
"The project might go south" has just always been a risk though, and people have continued to use Kickstarter. EGS is just another wrinkle in the long series of things that can and do go wrong.
Most of the people who are passionate enough about a project to spend full price years in advance (sometimes more than full price) are probably not all that concerned about the distribution platform. Kickstarter in and of itself is kind of made for people who want to dream and gamble.....if the worst outcome is a game shipping on a store you don't like, that's probably on the better side of things.
Like I said though, creators will probably start more emphatically guaranteeing Steam (or EGS or GoG or whatever). There's nothing that will prevent them from reneging on that promise but there's nothing that prevents them on reneging on any aspect of the project.
I've read a thousand posts and no one has managed to convince me that its not just another launcher, including plenty of yours.
I don't see why I'd get banned. Seems like I should be able to discuss what I think merits a refund or not and whether I think they'll budge on their stance.
I have read the staff posts. Maybe you guys are seeing something there I'm not:
* I'm not arguing in bad faith.
* I'm not attacking anyone (although it does feel like maybe you guys are all breaking the " If you feel a post is breaking a rule please report it and do not respond with hostility " rule)
* I don't care which store its released on
* Nothing to do with piracy
* I haven't claimed that backers weren't told they would steam keys
It comes down to whether or not we would consider the product defective because of the change. If your chicken noodle kickstarter advertised the product as long-lasting and compact food for the apocalypse that came in can, sure. If it advertised as a delicious soup made by an award-winning chef in a can, that's auxiliary.
Ultimately, opening refunds because "people have different reasons" would be a disaster because it opens up basically anyone to refund for any reason. This boils down to a case of a product being suboptimal but not defective.
Merchant: Hey, do you want tasty chocolate? We deliver in person to your house! You get your choice of tasty brands too.
Customer: Oh, sure, sounds great!
Merchant: We sell this standard box for $20. Or you can buy a bigger, fancier box for $50. Or go nuts and buy in bulk for $200!
Customer: I love chocolate so much... hell yeah, here's $200. (pays)
Merchant: Thank you very much. What is your choice? Lindt, Leonidas, Laura Secord?
Customer: Oh yeah. OK, I'll take Lindt.
Merchant: Perfect!
(later)
Merchant: Here's your chocolate. We have these tasty Hershey's Kisses for you.
Customer: What the hell? I ordered Lindt.
Merchant: Sorry, we don't offer Lindt anymore. Hershey gave us lots of money to make sure we don't sell Lindt.
Customer: But I don't want Hershey's. You have no Lindt at all?
Merchant: No. Hers... I mean we think Hershey's is the most enjoyable chocolate for truffle lovers. But, well, may I interest you in Leonidas or Laura Secord instead, then?
Customer: No, I wanted Lindt and I paid for Lindt. Give me a refund.
Merchant: You paid money before we even offered the brand, so you really just paid for chocolate. Since we are giving you chocolate now... No refunds.
Customer: What the fuck
Internet comments: What's the big deal? You still get chocolate, right?
The problem is that after these events one of the first questions from potential backers will most certainly be "can you commit to providing Steam keys for backers at release?"
Coming into a topic to loudly proclaim over a series of posts that, despite reading people's specific complaints about why they personally are upset about such a change and why said change is not frivelous to them, you are "not convinced" that, essentially, their complaints have any merit, is doing nothing but antagonizing people who have spent way more time trying to articulate their concerns than you have. It's trolling, plain and simple.
I was more happy to splurge $175 on the dream of Shenmue 3, but for reasons I do not understand, installing EGS is too much. I'd rather just not play the game,
Human psychology is weird.
User banned (3 days): ignoring staff post
Actually, when the backers paid, thats exactly what it said, just PC or PS4 version, there was no store assossiated to the PC. Just later and after the kickstarter campaign had ended, they informed that the PC version would be for Steam.
So i find these refund requests an overreaction. I understand they changed to a worst store and ppl are upset for that, but they never backed the game on steam, they backed the game for PC.
Releasing the game through Steam means that you get a variety of extra services along with your game. You get cloud saves, achievements, integrated one-click mod support, fantastic universal controller support, Linux compatibility, Big Picture mode support, screenshot taking and uploading and lots of other stuff. The Epic Games Store supports none of that. Shenmue 3 on EGS is objectively a worse product than Shenmue 3 on Steam. Denying refunds to people who believed in you and gave you lots of money sight unseen after offering a worse product because you took a moneyhat is despicable.
I see that point, though I'm not really looking at it from a legal consumer/producer standpoint, just a "that seems like a jerk move" standpoint.
Honestly, that sounds really arbitrary. Are there guidelines about this? At what point does a can becomes auxiliary? Is it too much to expect to get something exactly as what a seller tell you're going to get?
When you make a promise and that promise nets funding, you do your best to keep that promise. They clearly failed their promise and a reasonable amount of backlash is deserved. The trust is broken.
THIS IS NOT A PHYSICAL COPY
On this alone they should be getting raked over the coals, even for those handwaving the "different storefront, what's the big dealio?" scenario.
It's even worse:
For what it's worth, I specifically asked whether the PC disc would actually be functional or just a glorified download code, and they had this to say last year:
I'm interested in knowing whether they're walking that back or not.
Sorry for having standards, I guess? Turns out I care about more than just mindlessly gobbling down video games regardless of the circumstance. In fact, given that I'm turning my back on SHENMUE III specifically should tell you just how much I care about this issue.
AND FOR THE LAST TIME, IT'S NOT JUST A STORE FRONT.
I do not understand why people think EGS is Satan Incarnate like that. Install it, play the game to your heart's content, then uninstall it. Why deprive yourself of something you love over something as trivial as a storefront? Why throw $175 in the trash?
If I spent hundreds on a game I had dreamed about for 15 years I wouldn't care if it came with spyware and a rootkit onboard.
People are not getting what they were sold. Full stop. If Deep Silver were handing refunds, the uproar wouldnt be that much. Heck, a lot of people would appreciate it and maybe consider keep their order. But no, they're not getting what they wanted AND also are being denied a refund. I dont know why that's so hard to understand.
If not playing the game could in any way harm Epic/Y's Net/Deep Silver I might get it. But that ship has sailed. Money's been spent, and it ain't coming back. You're effectively trying to boycott a product that you have already bought and paid for.
You clearly haven't had to deal with those if you are making that cringe worthy statement.
Uh, I would totally reject a much anticipated game if it came with all that.
I hope people stop kickstarting stuff. Too many people getting burned and still supporting the next game.
I swear gamers will throw away their life, dignity and security so they can play games. Pathetic.
No wonder the gaming industry gets away with so much shitty anti consumer practices.
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